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  • FIRST POST
    • midimaomao
    • By midimaomao 18th Oct 16, 11:14 PM
    • 17Posts
    • 21Thanks
    midimaomao
    Endless appeal with IAS
    • #1
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:14 PM
    Endless appeal with IAS 18th Oct 16 at 11:14 PM
    It was too late when I found this website and read through the whole thread including the template.....

    What happened was that I appealed to the PCM (Parking Control Management) which was rejected and I had submitted another appeal to IAS which is likely to be rejected again accordingly to what I have read here.....

    I only have one question as to whether to pay the £100 charge now or I still have a chance to win even this is sent to county court later.

    My argument is that I never accepted the terms therefore the contract was never formed because as soon as I understood the terms I moved my car to the designated area within 1 minute.- This certainly cannot be considered as an acceptance of the contact.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    I realised that I have done a few things incorrectly earlier therefore would like to seek some advice before I replied to IAS by the deadline of this Friday:

    Please see the below my appeal:
    "To whom it may concern,

    Re PCN number: PMxxxxxxx

    On 08/10/2016, I visited Staycity Aparthotels London Heathrow as a first-time visitor to drop off a guest with approximately 8-10 big boxes and subsequently received a parking charge notice of £100 for stopping in front of the entrance for less than 1 minute when I had to read the signs and consider the terms, after which I moved my vehicle to the drop-off bay immediately without any obstruction nor loss to anyone.

    As the first-time visitor to this hotel, it is unlawful to expect me to read the signs from the road when I am driving and I should be allowed time to consider the terms.!

    1) The area is extremely misleading being right in front of the hotel reception, especially when the guest had 8-10 boxes and would like to ask for a trolley from the reception. The signs are not adequately positioned as it was 20 metres away in front, so I had to get out of the car to read the words.

    2)Being a foreigner, I spent 1 minute to understand the English words and moved the vehicle to the drop-off area immediately within 1-2 minutes maximum.

    3) The dropoff area is marked opposite the road which is not easy to be found as the first-time visitor, however I moved to the bay immediately when I understood the sign and their terms.

    It is extremely unreasonable to issue a parking ticket for £100 because I stopped in a misleading area for 1 minute in order to read the sign 20 metres away in front that caused no obstruction nor loss to anyone. I also feel discriminated because I may have needed 30 seconds longer to understand the terms fully.!It is also unlawful for Parking Control Management LTD to accuse me of agreeing to pay this amount because I never accepted the terms therefore the contract was never formed. Having read the signs and their terms, I decided to move to the drop-off bay immediately and spent 10 minutes to unload the boxes. I cannot understand why this company is being ignorant and unreasonable and expects every first-time visitor to understand their terms which are over 100 English words by a glance while driving.!

    I therefore request this PCN to be cancelled because I firmly believe that I should be allowed to read the sign and understand the terms, after which I moved the vehicle immediately. I do not have evidence but trust this company would have photos after I moved to the bay opposite the road and spent 10 minutes unloading approximately 8-10 big boxes, NOT in the restricted area where they took other pictures in order to catch the customers.!

    Thank you very much for your time."

    --------------------------
    Please see the below PCM's reply:
    "The appellant was the driver.
    The appellant was the keeper.
    ANPR/CCTV was used.
    The Notice to Keeper was sent on 11/10/2016.
    A response was recieved from the Notice to Keeper.
    The ticket was issued on 08/10/2016.
    The Notice to Keeper (ANPR) was sent in accordance with PoFA.
    The charge is based in Contract.

    Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd has been contracted to monitor & enforce a parking enforcement scheme in this area
    since 10th November 2009. This site is private land and is managed and operated by Parking Control Management. The
    Parking Charge Notice (PCN) has been issued in accordance with this parking management scheme. The signage in the area
    is clear and informs motorists of the terms agreed to by parking. By parking in this manner, the driver agrees to pay the charge
    stated.
    On the 08/10/2016 VRM XXXXXX was observed to be parked in breach of the advertised terms and conditions. Parking
    Attendant recorded that the vehicle was parked outside of a marked bay. The Parking Charge Notice was issued via post on
    the 11/10/2016
    Currently, the station is being developed as part of the London Crossrail upgrades; therefore the roadway is closed to station
    traffic with no drop off facilities available. This is signposted at the entrance to the roadway (see site information below).
    Limited parking is available within the bays but stopping/ waiting or drop & collection outside of marked bays is not permitted
    at any time.
    The area has numerous signs including entrance signs – indicating no stopping or waiting and showing icons which are easily
    interpreted at a glance – for example the crossed out capital P. the no parking areas are also painted easily recognisable
    markings – yellow lines/ hatchings etc.
    Any driver is of course, entitled to a reasonable amount of time to consider the terms. It is agreed that the signs cannot be
    read from the vehicle, nor are they intended to be. The driver is entitled to park and consider the terms before making the
    decision to park. The operator would expect any driver parking on private land, to park in bays where they are present.
    However, the driver made no attempt to do this. The signs at the entrance make it clear this is private land and restrictions
    apply. The photographs make it clear the driver made no attempt to consider the terms; therefore they are deemed to have
    notice of them."

    To pay for this charge of £100 is not the end of the world, and I certainly can learn a good lesson from this. I only feel angry for this company to catch people like this by having such a misleading area and taking photos, therefore would like to seek some professional advice here and seek some justice from the country court if I can. Of course, if it is likely that I will loose again in the court I will go ahead to pay this £100 as I do not want to receive those letters from the debt collectors though they do not any have any legal power- just not worth to be depressed because of those unpleasant letters.

    Thank you very much for your help and time.
    Last edited by midimaomao; 21-10-2016 at 10:05 PM.
Page 1
    • midimaomao
    • By midimaomao 18th Oct 16, 11:17 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    midimaomao
    • #2
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:17 PM
    • #2
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:17 PM
    Btw, the response from this company PCM is very quick- therefore I have every reason to believe they will take me to court if I refuse to pay the charge and they will keep increasing it from £60 (with discount before appeal) to £300 as I have seen on other forums.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 18th Oct 16, 11:24 PM
    • 2,248 Posts
    • 2,728 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    • #3
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:24 PM
    • #3
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:24 PM
    if you have fully read the threads then you should know that we do not recommend appealing to 'Skippy' at the 'kangaroo court' of the IAS

    you will NOT win .... unless you come up on the IAS monthly lottery that allows some wins .... to make it look good

    you would be FAR better off complaing to the hotel !

    "I refuse to pay the charge and they will keep increasing it from £60 (with discount before appeal) to £300 as I have seen on other forums."

    which forums ? this is NOT allowed !

    you are falling into the trap of believing the lies that they spurt out .....


    "therefore would like to seek some professional advice here and seek some justice from the country court "

    you will get no professional advice here .......... we are all just forum members

    if you do get professional advice ..... it will probably be lacking in depth compared to the advice that you will get off this forum

    so please listen

    and

    good luck

    Ralph
    Last edited by Ralph-y; 18-10-2016 at 11:27 PM.
    • midimaomao
    • By midimaomao 18th Oct 16, 11:36 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    midimaomao
    • #4
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:36 PM
    • #4
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:36 PM
    Many thanks for your reply.

    I only found this forum after I appealed therefore just would like to give it a try really.... Everyone knows the result though.....

    Btw, the hotel also replied- not helpful at all

    "Thank you very much for your email.

    Unfortunately we don't have no control over the company which operates on behalf of the national rail and high point village owners who own this private road.

    We do our best to ensure there is enough signage everywhere to let our guests know what's going on, however if people don't read signs and by mistake park up this PCN company gives tickets straight away.

    I wish I could do something all I would suggest is that please appeal against the ticket you received you must have the procedure on the back of it with the same information you sent to me and I hope they will be take it off.

    I am very sorry for not being able to help."
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Oct 16, 11:59 PM
    • 40,493 Posts
    • 52,390 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:59 PM
    • #5
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:59 PM
    I only have one question as to whether to pay the £100 charge now
    No.

    I still have a chance to win even this is sent to county court later.
    Absolutely, yes. PCM cases are certainly won in court. On pepipoo forum, read this one from Marky123 who won today and got awarded HIS costs!

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=105175

    and on that thread, another posters 'tracytracy' says she also won last week v PCM and was awarded over £100 costs.

    I also know of another one who won last month and was awarded costs against PCM.

    And bargepole who posts on here beat PCM:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/pcm-uk-signage-does-not-create-contract.html

    Even a person who loses would not pay £300! Typically about £175, that's all, if you lose, no CCJ, no trouble, no effect on your credit rating.

    My argument is that I never accepted the terms therefore the contract was never formed because as soon as I understood the terms I moved my car to the designated area within 1 minute.- This certainly cannot be considered as an acceptance of the contact.
    We agree with you! This is part of your defence.

    As you have already appealed to IAS you may as well complete that appeal and if you lose (which you probably will) just ignore PCM! Come back if you get a court claim or solicitor's letter after this stage, if you do lose. Don't pay.

    Do you mean you have ALREADY sent that appeal or that you are going to send it? If you have not sent it yet, we can help you improve it to give you a chance.

    Do not say things like 'I have no evidence'! And don't say 'one minute' in one please then '1 - 2 minutes' in another place.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 19-10-2016 at 12:01 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • midimaomao
    • By midimaomao 19th Oct 16, 12:22 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    midimaomao
    • #6
    • 19th Oct 16, 12:22 AM
    • #6
    • 19th Oct 16, 12:22 AM
    Thank you very much for your detailed reply....

    Honestly, I could not remember exactly how it happened and how quickly I moved the car...but I was very positive that I moved it within 2 minutes max.

    Having reviewed a few threads on the forum, I definitely believe that I will get more professional advice here therefore have not yet replied to IAS.

    My proposed reply is:
    "I never accepted the terms therefore the contract was never formed. As soon as I understood the terms I moved my car to the drop-off area within 1-2 minutes and unloaded all the boxes in the designated area.- This certainly cannot be considered as an acceptance of the contact.

    The reason why I stopped in the restricted area was because it was right in front of the hotel reception which is extremely misleading. I was having approximately 8-10 big boxes to unload on the day, therefore stopped in the nearest point initially for her to ask for a trolley from the reception but moved immediately.

    The reason why I did not detail everything yin my initial appeal to PCM was because I was trying to explain to PCM that I only stopped for 1-2 minutes maximum and did not cause any obstruction nor loss to anyone. English is not my first language and I did not have enough knowledge as I even mentioned "fine" in my initial appeal to PCM while it is actually a "charge" due to breach of contract. However, I never agreed to accept the terms by moving the vehicle immediately and unloading all the boxes in the designated area therefore the contract was never formed."


    Thank you very much for your help and time.- You answered all my questions and I will certainly go with your advice. I really enjoy learning about the knowledge of law- even I lose in the court, I will be happy to pay £175 for a lesson.
    Last edited by midimaomao; 19-10-2016 at 1:33 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Oct 16, 12:28 AM
    • 40,493 Posts
    • 52,390 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 19th Oct 16, 12:28 AM
    • #7
    • 19th Oct 16, 12:28 AM
    Good.

    Now let's get this IAS appeal stronger. DO NOT SEND THIS YET.

    They will want evidence. So:

    - pick out this bit that PCM stated and point out that it contradicts what they are trying to argue. On the one hand they are saying you WERE allowed a reasonable amount of time to read the signs, but on the other hand they are saying that you were not...so ask IAS, which is it?
    Any driver is of course, entitled to a reasonable amount of time to consider the terms. It is agreed that the signs cannot be read from the vehicle, nor are they intended to be. The driver is entitled to park and consider the terms before making the decision to park.
    - where you say to IAS 'English is not my first language' attach a copy of proof for the IAS to see you are telling the truth (e.g. your passport if you have one from another Country). Where you say the signs had lots of words and was 20 metres away, can you prove that with a photo? Even one of PCM's own photos?

    Can you show us that sign? Did PCM show a picture or two of the sign and area? let's see this:
    ''Currently, the station is being developed as part of the London Crossrail upgrades; therefore the roadway is closed to station traffic with no drop off facilities available. This is signposted at the entrance to the roadway (see site information below).''
    If you can, please take a screenshot of the sign evidence PCM supplied and save it and upload it to 'tinypic' or Dropbox.

    Then show us the URL for the link but change http to 'hxxp'.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 19-10-2016 at 12:35 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • midimaomao
    • By midimaomao 19th Oct 16, 1:04 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    midimaomao
    • #8
    • 19th Oct 16, 1:04 AM
    • #8
    • 19th Oct 16, 1:04 AM
    Many thanks for your prompt reply.

    pick out this bit that PCM stated and point out that it contradicts what they are trying to argue. On the one hand they are saying you WERE allowed a reasonable amount of time to read the signs, but on the other hand they are saying that you were not...so ask IAS, which is it?

    - I mentioned this because I read from another thread that IAS replied to him that the drive is not expected to read the signs on the road and is allowed to have time to read and consider the terms.

    Any driver is of course, entitled to a reasonable amount of time to consider the terms. It is agreed that the signs cannot be read from the vehicle, nor are they intended to be. The driver is entitled to park and consider the terms before making the decision to park.
    ”- where you say to IAS 'English is not my first language' attach a copy of proof for the IAS to see you are telling the truth (e.g. your passport if you have one from another Country). Where you say the signs had lots of words and was 20 metres away, can you prove that with a photo? Even one of PCM's own photos?

    - Yes, I do have my Chinese passport.
    - OK, maybe 10 metres aways, but I was not able to read all those word without getting out of the car.

    ”If you can, please take a screenshot of the sign evidence PCM supplied and save it and upload it to 'tinypic' or Dropbox.

    Then show us the URL for the link but change http to 'hxxp'.

    - The following errors occurred with your submission:
    "Sorry as a new user you are not allowed to post with links. This is done to stop spammers clogging up the site. " - I will drop you a quick message with the link maybe?-just tried but I was not allowed to send u a private message neither....


    Thank you very much for your help and time.
    Last edited by midimaomao; 19-10-2016 at 1:10 AM.
    • midimaomao
    • By midimaomao 19th Oct 16, 1:24 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    midimaomao
    • #9
    • 19th Oct 16, 1:24 AM
    • #9
    • 19th Oct 16, 1:24 AM
    dropbox.com/sh/548vpe2ay5qgfio/AAD3M2Tnyj6gHFOpqgURV5_Qa?dl=0
    • midimaomao
    • By midimaomao 19th Oct 16, 1:26 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    midimaomao
    The front part should be hxxps://
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 19th Oct 16, 8:04 AM
    • 1,722 Posts
    • 2,369 Thanks
    fisherjim
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/548vpe2ay5qgfio/AAD3M2Tnyj6gHFOpqgURV5_Qa?dl=0

    This site has been discussed on here before, I remember from those photos, the ppc must be rubbing their hands with glee what a confusing mess.
    To quote the words of the great Count Arthur Strong "You Couldn't make it up"
    • DollyDee
    • By DollyDee 19th Oct 16, 8:31 AM
    • 623 Posts
    • 639 Thanks
    DollyDee
    The last sign states "No Grace Periods Applied" and yet the IPC Code of Practice states on Page 13, Item 15:

    15. Grace Periods

    15.1 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so
    they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.

    15.2 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to leave a site after a pre-paid or
    permitted period of parking has expired.

    So that sign breaks their own Code of Practice!
    • midimaomao
    • By midimaomao 19th Oct 16, 12:19 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    midimaomao
    Thank you very much for your reply. By Looking at this, I certainly would not pay £100 to these horrible people. I feel they are just trying to catch everyone as I actually found on hotel.com or another similar booking website ---

    Someone said that he got 3 tickets every time that he dropped off his child as it is right in front of the hotel entrance.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Oct 16, 1:29 PM
    • 40,493 Posts
    • 52,390 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    OK, maybe someone with time can suggest a final version to submit, seeing as you've committed to IAS appeal. Make sure when you do submit it that you attach/upload your evidence photos and scan of your Chinese passport as proof that it was reasonable that you needed a minute to read the sign, then drove away to park where it was allowed to leave a vehicle.

    IAS appeals are usually lost but I'm interested to see what the IAS makes of the PPC saying this:
    The driver is entitled to park and consider the terms before making the
    decision to park.
    ...if you clearly mention that and say, this is conflicting information and clearly they did NOT allow me any time to read the sign and make that decision.

    And show that the signs say 'No Grace Periods Applied' which needs the words quoted by DollyDee adding to your appeal response.

    Show us what you have now come up with including DollyDee's words.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • midimaomao
    • By midimaomao 19th Oct 16, 9:59 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    midimaomao
    Many thanks,

    I do not have any evidence, as I did not take photos of myself unloading those boxes......well, maybe the operator did not take any neither as they could not get any money out of people for those ones...

    I can certainly upload my passport as advised.

    These people cannot simply sit there and take photos as their daily job and make huge money out of this....They obviously now have a dedicated team to reply to any appeals to any PCN issued as they were really efficient responding....

    Having read the parking operator's reply as below, they are trying to say they are applying the rules but I obviously did not obey the rule by not standing in front of the every signs to read. Well, I honestly could not remember exactly what happened but I can assure that I moved and unloaded all the boxes in the designated area, as a fact.

    "Any driver is of course, entitled to a reasonable amount of time to consider the terms. It is agreed that the signs cannot be read from the vehicle, nor are they intended to be. The driver is entitled to park and consider the terms before making the decision to park. The operator would expect any driver parking on private land, to park in bays where they are present.
    However, the driver made no attempt to do this. The signs at the entrance make it clear this is private land and restrictions apply. The photographs make it clear the driver made no attempt to consider the terms; therefore they are deemed to have notice of them."
    Last edited by midimaomao; 19-10-2016 at 10:23 PM.
    • midimaomao
    • By midimaomao 21st Oct 16, 10:05 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    midimaomao
    This seems to be an endless and pointless argument with PCM now- I did not have two passengers but one, do they really know what they are talking about? Should I continue with this appeal by replying with the same thing for another year maybe?

    PCM obviously has a dedicated team to deal with this- they are incredibly quick to reply.

    The operator made their response on 21/10/2016 15:05:09.

    I do not accept that the driver was reading the signs. The photographic evidence shows that the driver dropped off two passengers. There is clear entrance signage stipulating the terms of parking – there is no reason why the driver would not read this or as advised by the entrance signs, park within a bay to read the internal signage.

    In regards to the sign – the sign has been audited by the IPC, therefore I am confident that it is legally compliant and compliant with the IPC CoP.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Oct 16, 12:59 AM
    • 40,493 Posts
    • 52,390 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    PCM obviously has a dedicated team to deal with this- they are incredibly quick to reply.
    Originally posted by midimaomao
    They have the motley crew who featured on Watchdog, who have nothing better to do and 'make it up'!

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/pcm-uk-signage-does-not-create-contract.html

    I think I would not bother with IAS looking at that rubbish that PCM have written. I know you've started it but you have not appealed yet and didn't pay £15 for the non-standard IAS (we hope) so I would drop it and ignore them (DO NOT PAY).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 22nd Oct 16, 8:37 AM
    • 1,722 Posts
    • 2,369 Thanks
    fisherjim
    Tell them if this goes to court you will require them to produce all their evidence that two passengers got out of the vehicle, which they obviously will not have!

    I don't for one minute believe that the IPC audit every sign in every car park, that's just garbage, if they do they should have a dated log for all the sites they visit with photos and a plan!
    Last edited by fisherjim; 22-10-2016 at 8:42 AM.
    To quote the words of the great Count Arthur Strong "You Couldn't make it up"
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 22nd Oct 16, 9:25 AM
    • 4,131 Posts
    • 4,744 Thanks
    beamerguy
    PCM obviously has a dedicated team to deal with this- they are incredibly quick to reply.
    Originally posted by midimaomao
    PCM have a dedicated bunch of scammers employed to extort money.

    What else do you expect from bottom feeding pond life
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • midimaomao
    • By midimaomao 22nd Oct 16, 10:03 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    midimaomao
    Many thanks all. I did not pay anything as IAS states FREE and I am not yet familiar with non-standard IAS and will not be interested going any further with them, accordingly to what I have read here....

    - Basically, we all expect that IAS will honour this charge and support PCM as their members. So I am actually now interested to know what they will come up with to support PCM's ticket. Shall we give them a chance to see whether I can win a lottery maybe? I will certainly post their final decision here regardless to share with everyone;

    - As PCM needs to go with IAS' decisions but I do not have to, even I loose, I do not have to pay the charge legally until they take me to court, when by law I need to defend myself;

    - Of course, before the court paper comes through, I shall expect numerous nasty letters from debt collectors, which I will ignore.

    - The link Coupon-mad provided is SHOCKING…..and they are really being stupid by making things up…….which will not do them any favour in court I guess?

    OK, back to the key points now:

    1) As shown on the pictures, my car was full of boxes and I had to put the back seats down- therefore there is no way that I have more than one passenger in my car. However, this is irrelevant to the topic I guess but to support that PCM is making things up (or they may claim they made a mistake as well);

    2) From all the pictures that they provided so far:

    - I arrived @08:36:19
    - Passenger got out @08:36:22
    - I opened the boot from inside and got out of the car @08:36:31
    - I shut the boot and got back to the car @ 08:36:54
    - I already sat in the car and was about to restart the car @ 08:36:56
    - Last picture was timed @ 08:37:00 with a zoom-in of my car registration with the light still off

    I am very positive that I started the car immediately after 08:37 and moved the car the drop-off bay, so in fact we are looking at 1 minute or so from 08:36-08:37, definitely within 2 minutes I moved and spent the rest of time unloading the boxes in the bay. (Of course, the passenger ended up going back and forth many times to shift the boxes.)

    My question is, if I am going to court, by showing the judge all the above, am I likely to win the case by considering all the facts that we have talked about earlier while evidence photos would be presented by PCM to the judge?
    Last edited by midimaomao; 22-10-2016 at 10:09 PM.
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