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  • FIRST POST
    • coolasacucumber
    • By coolasacucumber 18th Oct 16, 10:55 PM
    • 60Posts
    • 6Thanks
    coolasacucumber
    Electric heated water
    • #1
    • 18th Oct 16, 10:55 PM
    Electric heated water 18th Oct 16 at 10:55 PM
    Hi all,

    I've just bought a 1 bedroom house, with only an electric supply, no gas. I'm making quite a few changes, interior walls etc., and the bathroom is next on the agenda.

    I currently have a hot water tank in a small cupboard in the bathroom.

    Ideally I'd like to move/change this if possible, as it would free up some much needed space - but - not if it's going to cost a fortune.

    There is a cold water tank in the loft - with not much head height.

    Currently there is an electric shower, a bath, sink in the bathroom, sink in the kitchen, a washing machine & a dishwasher.

    2 of us living in the house, 1 shower each a day, bath maybe used twice a week, one run of the dishwasher a day, washing machine a couple of times a week.

    I have a builder friend who says he will install/change whatever I decide, I'm just a bit stuck for options.

    I could leave what I have - which I know works & will suffice. But in an ideal world I'd move any new equipment into the loft, or someone has suggested individual water heaters on each tap, which just work on demand.

    Someone else suggested an unvented cylinder, which I've done a little research on but still not sure.

    If anyone could offer some words of wisdom I'd be most grateful!

    Thanks in advance.
Page 1
    • coolasacucumber
    • By coolasacucumber 18th Oct 16, 11:05 PM
    • 60 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    coolasacucumber
    • #2
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:05 PM
    • #2
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:05 PM
    Something along these lines:-

    http://www.screwfix.com/p/rm-prostel-horizontal-direct-unvented-hot-water-cylinder-180ltr/5513f

    As I understand it - there's no need for a cold tank in the loft or a hefty hot water cylinder in the bathroom - just the cold feed going straight to this. Which claims to offer a better flow rate than a conventional system too.
    Last edited by coolasacucumber; 18-10-2016 at 11:09 PM.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 18th Oct 16, 11:32 PM
    • 26,058 Posts
    • 12,527 Thanks
    Cardew
    • #3
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:32 PM
    • #3
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:32 PM
    You haven't mentioned your heating system - storage heating? panel heating? Economy 7?

    An unvented cylinder needs a property with good mains water pressure and is very expensive to buy and fit. You will get rid of the cold water tank in the loft and provided your water pressure is OK the unvented tank can be put in the loft. When working they are excellent - hot water at mains pressure.

    Individual 'on demand' water heaters will probably require considerable changes to the electrical wiring and consumer unit.
    Last edited by Cardew; 18-10-2016 at 11:34 PM.
    • coolasacucumber
    • By coolasacucumber 19th Oct 16, 11:33 AM
    • 60 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    coolasacucumber
    • #4
    • 19th Oct 16, 11:33 AM
    • #4
    • 19th Oct 16, 11:33 AM
    Thanks for your reply. When I bought the house, there was a mixture of heating... 1 storage heater in the bedroom, an aftermarket hot air blower on the bathroom wall, an unusual hot air blowing device in the lounge, and an oil filled electric radiator between the lounge / bedroom.

    But that was all old & unpleasant, so have been removed.

    Our plans are:- Wood burner & some kind of panel heater to heat open plan downstairs, kitchen/lounge.

    A storage heater or panel heater in the bedroom, and an electric towel rail/heater in the bathroom.

    I guess I can do a simple water flow test, stop watch used to fill a specific sized bucket etc.?

    Another bonus I guess is that we could have a hot mains fed shower, as opposed to an electric shower, which are never as good in my opinion/experience.
    Last edited by coolasacucumber; 19-10-2016 at 11:47 AM.
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 19th Oct 16, 12:09 PM
    • 2,866 Posts
    • 1,468 Thanks
    lstar337
    • #5
    • 19th Oct 16, 12:09 PM
    • #5
    • 19th Oct 16, 12:09 PM
    Thanks for your reply. When I bought the house, there was a mixture of heating... 1 storage heater in the bedroom, an aftermarket hot air blower on the bathroom wall, an unusual hot air blowing device in the lounge, and an oil filled electric radiator between the lounge / bedroom.

    But that was all old & unpleasant, so have been removed.

    Our plans are:- Wood burner & some kind of panel heater to heat open plan downstairs, kitchen/lounge.

    A storage heater or panel heater in the bedroom, and an electric towel rail/heater in the bathroom.

    I guess I can do a simple water flow test, stop watch used to fill a specific sized bucket etc.?

    Another bonus I guess is that we could have a hot mains fed shower, as opposed to an electric shower, which are never as good in my opinion/experience.
    Originally posted by coolasacucumber
    Sounds like a right old jumble that will cost you a fortune to run.

    I would advise going to E7 hot water, storage heaters where needed (main living space), small panel heaters for infrequent rooms (bedroom), and your log burner.

    Your mixture of storage/non-storage and single rate electric is going to either ruin you financially or make you coldasacucumber.
    • coolasacucumber
    • By coolasacucumber 19th Oct 16, 1:16 PM
    • 60 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    coolasacucumber
    • #6
    • 19th Oct 16, 1:16 PM
    • #6
    • 19th Oct 16, 1:16 PM
    Haha I like it. Cool, or pleasantly warm as a cucumber is highly preferred!

    I did plan to switch to e7, I actually only switched from it yesterday as it'll just be me & tradesmen there working during the day for the next 2 months'ish.

    The way I think the unvented heating works, it heats water during e7 hours, keeps it warm during the day, then tops up the heating when wanted. But means a lot less space taken up...

    Heating wise, I didn't want a storage heater in main living space as we'll use the wood burner most days (we currently already do this in current house even though we have gch).
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 19th Oct 16, 3:02 PM
    • 2,866 Posts
    • 1,468 Thanks
    lstar337
    • #7
    • 19th Oct 16, 3:02 PM
    • #7
    • 19th Oct 16, 3:02 PM
    Heating wise, I didn't want a storage heater in main living space as we'll use the wood burner most days (we currently already do this in current house even though we have gch).
    Originally posted by coolasacucumber
    All very good, but I would expect there to be days when you just cannot be bothered to sort out the wood burner. Say if you were under the weather or something. Do you currently have a wood burner or have you had one in the past?

    I stayed in a house for a week that only had a log burner for heat. It was lovely when going, but so much hassle when you can't really be bothered.

    A modern night storage heater can be used for nice background heat with the option to light the log burner for the wow factor.

    Also, with E7 you want to keep your ratio of off-peak/peak as high as possible to make it pay off. I doubt that a single water heater would achieve that.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 19th Oct 16, 4:58 PM
    • 26,058 Posts
    • 12,527 Thanks
    Cardew
    • #8
    • 19th Oct 16, 4:58 PM
    • #8
    • 19th Oct 16, 4:58 PM
    The way I think the unvented heating works, it heats water during e7 hours, keeps it warm during the day, then tops up the heating when wanted. But means a lot less space taken up...
    Originally posted by coolasacucumber
    What do you mean by 'then tops up the heating when wanted'? You have made no mention of a hot water radiator in your heating plans.
    • footyguy
    • By footyguy 19th Oct 16, 7:12 PM
    • 2,431 Posts
    • 949 Thanks
    footyguy
    • #9
    • 19th Oct 16, 7:12 PM
    • #9
    • 19th Oct 16, 7:12 PM
    Hi all,

    I've just bought a 1 bedroom house, with only an electric supply, no gas. I'm making quite a few changes, interior walls etc., and the bathroom is next on the agenda.

    I currently have a hot water tank in a small cupboard in the bathroom.

    Ideally I'd like to move/change this if possible, as it would free up some much needed space - but - not if it's going to cost a fortune.

    There is a cold water tank in the loft - with not much head height.

    Currently there is an electric shower, a bath, sink in the bathroom, sink in the kitchen, a washing machine & a dishwasher.

    2 of us living in the house, 1 shower each a day, bath maybe used twice a week, one run of the dishwasher a day, washing machine a couple of times a week.

    I have a builder friend who says he will install/change whatever I decide, I'm just a bit stuck for options.

    I could leave what I have - which I know works & will suffice. But in an ideal world I'd move any new equipment into the loft, or someone has suggested individual water heaters on each tap, which just work on demand.

    Someone else suggested an unvented cylinder, which I've done a little research on but still not sure.

    If anyone could offer some words of wisdom I'd be most grateful!

    Thanks in advance.
    Originally posted by coolasacucumber
    Maybe I don't understand what exactly you are hoping to achieve?
    Or maybe you too are confused?

    But if you just want to stick the hot water tank in the loft, in order to make more space in the living part of the house, then go ahead

    All you need to do is ensure the cold water header tank remains above the top of the hot water tank, so that may mean raising that too.
    • coolasacucumber
    • By coolasacucumber 19th Oct 16, 9:53 PM
    • 60 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    coolasacucumber
    Thanks everyone for your input. I probably am more confused than I realise, I think I'm asking 3 or 4 questions now due to replies.

    I agree about the extra heating source to the wood burner in the main living space, I was imagining a panel heater would suffice, but maybe a storage heater would be better for the colder months...

    In the bathroom - I imagine a large heated towel rail/radiator will be ok.

    There isn't the height in the loft to put the cold water & hot water tanks, side by side yes, cold water above - unfortunately not.

    It is only a 1 bedroom 1 bedroom house, moving the hot water tank means I can rearrange some walls & get a study room upstairs, so it is something I'd really like to do.

    Is my understanding of the unvented system correct - that it heats water at night using e7 rates, then if hot water is required during the day, that the unvented cylinder re-heats the water to the desired temperature?

    Or have I misunderstood - and it just heats it at night (or whenever it's programmed to come on), then keeps the water warm, not re-heating it?

    Thanks again, I really do appreciate the help & advice!
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 20th Oct 16, 12:22 PM
    • 2,866 Posts
    • 1,468 Thanks
    lstar337
    I agree about the extra heating source to the wood burner in the main living space, I was imagining a panel heater would suffice, but maybe a storage heater would be better for the colder months...
    Originally posted by coolasacucumber
    OK, I think the main confusion here is a misunderstanding of the nature of E7 system. If you are on E7 you want to limit the amount of peak day rate electricity you use because it is usually about 3x more expensive than the off-peak night rate. The point of storage heaters is to take that cheap night rate electric and store it so it is available at a sensible time of day. Since you will be heating your water through E7, you are much better off using storage heating too because any normal peak rate (panel) heater is going to be using those expensive (3x) electricity units. Exceptions to this rule are rooms that are not used much such as bedrooms. This is because you can normally heat for about an hour or 30 mins before bed and be fine and toasty.

    In the bathroom - I imagine a large heated towel rail/radiator will be ok.
    Originally posted by coolasacucumber
    OK, but it will be sucking up those expensive day units. Your options are 1) A small storage heater designed for bathrooms, 2) Infra red heater linked to the light, 3) Hot air blower, 4) Towel radiator.

    I have listed these by what I think is least to most expensive to run.

    There isn't the height in the loft to put the cold water & hot water tanks, side by side yes, cold water above - unfortunately not.
    Originally posted by coolasacucumber
    You can get combined taks, I had one in a flat I lived in. The cold water tank sits atop the hot water tank in a single unit.

    https://www.cylinders2go.co.uk/shop/combi-cylinders/direct-combination-cylinders/1400x450-economy-7-direct-combination-tank-copy/

    Is my understanding of the unvented system correct - that it heats water at night using e7 rates, then if hot water is required during the day, that the unvented cylinder re-heats the water to the desired temperature?
    Originally posted by coolasacucumber
    Not quite, or you could be mixing terms. Unvented simply means that the system is closed and works at mains pressure. Vented means the system is open and works via a pump or gravity. You can get E7 varieties of either.

    https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/articles/vented-and-unvented-hot-water-cylinders

    Or have I misunderstood - and it just heats it at night (or whenever it's programmed to come on), then keeps the water warm, not re-heating it?
    Originally posted by coolasacucumber
    E7 means the water is heated for 7 hours (the 7 from E7) and the insulation on the tank keeps it warm to use all day. If it gets cold because you have used it all there is a secondary system that allows you to use expensive day rate units to heat a smaller portion of water at the top of the tank for quick use. The tank heat is automatically topped up during the E7 hours if needed, and the secondary boost system is controlled by you when needed.

    Thanks again, I really do appreciate the help & advice!
    Originally posted by coolasacucumber
    No problem.
    Last edited by lstar337; 20-10-2016 at 12:26 PM.
    • coolasacucumber
    • By coolasacucumber 20th Oct 16, 4:43 PM
    • 60 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    coolasacucumber
    That's a great reply, very informative, thank you.

    So basically if I go E7 it should be all or nothing, night water heating & storage heating, and keep heating during the day to a minimum. Or, stay on 1 rate and heat water & house when needed?

    I'll look into that combined tank too, certainly a cheaper option than an unvented system.
    • lstar337
    • By lstar337 20th Oct 16, 5:29 PM
    • 2,866 Posts
    • 1,468 Thanks
    lstar337
    That's a great reply, very informative, thank you.

    So basically if I go E7 it should be all or nothing, night water heating & storage heating, and keep heating during the day to a minimum. Or, stay on 1 rate and heat water & house when needed?
    Originally posted by coolasacucumber
    I wouldn't say all or nothing, but as much as possible or nothing.

    You could of course look at options for a thermal store which could link up with your log burner too. There are so many options.

    But I think you should be looking at E7 with as much storage as you can afford. That will save you on bills in the future.

    Any other questions, just ask.
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