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  • FIRST POST
    • emmasaunders
    • By emmasaunders 18th Oct 16, 4:39 PM
    • 27Posts
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    emmasaunders
    Cyclist collision at mini round about
    • #1
    • 18th Oct 16, 4:39 PM
    Cyclist collision at mini round about 18th Oct 16 at 4:39 PM
    Hi advice on whose at fault. Last night at around sunset, a cyclist hit me at a mini round about drivers front wing. I pulled up at mini round about and saw the car to my right stationary so proceeded to enter the round about. I then hear a thud and a cyclist has collided with my rhs near the mini round about. I didn't see him, I imagine when I pulled off he was at the right side of the car at my right so I had no clear view of him, plus he was wearing all black, no pedal reflectors and no front light, just a back light, no helmet. I wish I took a photo of the fact he had no front light on at the scene. He didn't require and ambulance but was hit from bike. Any ideas how this may unfold? He stated that he saw a learner to his right and thought he could make it in time and probably didn't look infront. I understand traffic to the right has right of way but when a car to my right has stopped to give way to me it necessitates that I should have entered the round about, I imagine the cyclist didn't come to a stop at the give way sign and was just concentrating on beating traffic to his right
Page 5
    • dacouch
    • By dacouch 18th Oct 16, 11:19 PM
    • 19,737 Posts
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    dacouch
    Even if they had a front light they're not exactly powerful & if the bike was hidden by the car, it's unlikely you'd have picked out a feeble bike light in among car headlights.

    You were unlucky, it could happen to any of us. I hope you don't get a claim against your insurance.

    On a seperate note - Should bikes be allowed to claim against cars insurance? After all they don't have insurance.....
    Originally posted by Kim kim
    I have a feeling this will come as a shock to you.

    A driver of a car that is not insured in anyway is legally entitled to claim from another vehicles insurance is the other other vehicle was at fault in the accident.

    Why do you think different laws should apply to cyclists or pedestrians when an uninsured driver who legally should hold insurance can claim?
    • Norman Castle
    • By Norman Castle 19th Oct 16, 9:15 AM
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    Norman Castle
    I understand traffic to the right has right of way but when a car to my right has stopped to give way to me it necessitates that I should have entered the round about, I imagine the cyclist didn't come to a stop at the give way sign and was just concentrating on beating traffic to his right
    Originally posted by emmasaunders
    The car to your right apparently had a car to their right. You've said "they stopped to give way to you". Did they signal they were giving way to you, if so, how?


    Its impossible I was going at any great speed, as the round about is just after a set of lights, I all but stopped and probably was going no more than 5mph in my opinnion. I understand your take, I did look Assess, decide and act, and it involved me seeing a stationary vehicle and decided to move out and not seing the cyclist with no lights probably thundering down the inside. How is it possible to see at a junction if a bike is behind a car?
    Originally posted by emmasaunders
    So at a mini roundabout where distances are short you didn't stop despite the car to your right which you should be giving way to. You didn't see the cyclist because you didn't look properly.
    Last edited by Norman Castle; 19-10-2016 at 9:19 AM.
    Too cool for school. Also too old for school.
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 19th Oct 16, 9:38 AM
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    NBLondon
    I get the feeling this one could run and run....


    Emma - you are mostly in the wrong. The car to your right is extremely unlikely to have stopped to give way to you - the only cases I can think are a) they were used to driving on the right and had a monetary lapse b) they had broken down at that very instant c) they recognised you. Did they actually signal that they were giving way? Even so, that does not give you universal right of way. Far more likely that they were giving way to a vehicle further round on their right that you couldn't see... in which case you may have the option to go if it is safe but you still have the responsibility to give way to vehicles already on the roundabout.


    There could be a legal challenge based on which of you actually entered the roundabout first but without cctv or helmet/dash cam evidence, I doubt an insurance company would bother to fight it.


    The cyclist appears to have contributed by a) not maximising their visibility when riding at dusk b) overtaking a stopped vehicle at a junction - i.e. they should also have given way to whoever was approaching from the right. Possibly they decided that as they were already moving at speed - they could cross the small mini-roundabout before that other road user reached them.
    One day I'll think of something witty - Apparently I have!
    • spadoosh
    • By spadoosh 19th Oct 16, 9:44 AM
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    spadoosh
    This seems to sum up your situation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4

    The situation sounds quite unfortunate for you but ultimately you are to blaim. The cyclist didnt help themselves, mightve been taking unnecessary risks but youre not supposed to enter a round about unless youre certain it is clear for you. You might say you where certain it was but the fact is it wasnt.

    Cyclists dont behave the same as drivers (sometimes illegaly sometime legally, sometimes for/against recommendations).

    This is how simple it is to have an accident. People think its difficult but it really isnt. With driving ive learnt to think the worst possible outcome, you simply can not be too cautious when in control of a car.

    I saw something similar a couple of months ago. Cyclist coming off roundabout in cycle lane car had come off the roundabout before hand and being a narrower road parked her car over the cycle lane. Traffic stopped, bike comes flying around the exit and slams into the side of the car. In that situation whilst the driver was very clearly in the wrong (stopping in a cycle lane) the cyclist was at fault for not adjusting his speed accordingly and failing to stop in time to hit the car. Incidentally my 'defensive' driving saved me from having him go in to me. I was behind the lady who got hit, kind of to prove a point made sure i was outside the bicycle lane, my car was at a ridiculous angle in relation to the road and im sure many thought i was a tool, right up to the cylist faceplanting the car.

    I dont claim to be a superior driver but have learnt thigns from a couple of accidents (not with cyclists) and being a cyclist it certainly fine tunes your anticipation skills.
    Don't be angry!
    • Mercdriver
    • By Mercdriver 19th Oct 16, 11:37 AM
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    Mercdriver
    I think the cyclist being unlit or in dark clothing is a bit of a defensive red herring. If it is dark enough for lights to be necessary for people to be seen, then picking out a cycle light can be difficult and reflective gear is of limited use when it is coming towards you unless there is light coming from the left. Whether the cycle is lit or not, you still have to look very carefully to make sure there is nothing that might overtake the car.

    Entering the roundabout in this fashion is inherently risky. If you cannot be certain there is nothing there, then you shouldn't accept the invitation to pull out - you're trusting someone else's judgement, and you shouldn't do that in these circumstances IMHO. The car letting you out here isn't doing you any favours, in fact they are causing a hazard.

    I'll ask you a question someone else asked you that you chose not to answer.

    If this was your practical driving test, do you think the examiner would have passed you following this incident?

    If the answer is no (which I suspect would be the answer) then the standard of your driving would be below the standard of a careful and competent driver. The other motorist's actions aren't a defence to yours. You took an action that caused an accident. You pulled out when you didn't have priority. In so doing you caused the cyclist to hit you. Slam dunk careless if the police did attend, which in my opinion they should have to be quite sure.

    I was in a similar accident when I was dressed in dayglo yellow. Driver tried to take me to hospital himself I refused. I was obviously injured. The whiplash I suffered reared its head a day later - the cyclist could have similar symptoms, and decide to report it. You'll struggle to defend failure to report to the police otherwise.

    If in doubt, report it. If the police tell you no need, get them to confirm it in writing.
    • forgotmyname
    • By forgotmyname 19th Oct 16, 11:42 AM
    • 23,312 Posts
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    forgotmyname
    Above reminds me of another youtube video, Learner on a driving lesson where the car has front and rear cameras installed.

    Parked at the side of the road for some time and a right thud from behind, A cyclist had his head down and pushing hard failed to look up and completely missed the parked vehicle and slammed into the back of it.

    I used a scooter for work as the traffic got so bad, the amount of times i knocked on peoples windows to alert them to my presence was unreal.

    Glad i had plenty of years experience on the road before getting one though. I knew exactly what to look for and avoid.

    Not just bikes though, i was in the car on the M6 in the roadworks and had that awful feeling the lorry to my right was going to pull into me. And yep i was right. His indicator came on to move into me. Hand on the horm and edged as close to the vehicle in front in the hope he spotted me. Luckily that worked. I think the car behind was oblivious to his actions.
    Punctuation, Spelling and Grammar will be used sparingly. Due to rising costs of inflation.

    My contribution to MSE. Other contributions will only be used if they cost me nothing.

    Due to me being a tight git.
    • reeac
    • By reeac 19th Oct 16, 11:43 AM
    • 953 Posts
    • 384 Thanks
    reeac
    I have some sympathy with the OP as one could argue that the cyclist was overtaking at a road junction. I had a near miss at a T junction when a motorist on the main road stopped to let me out but a motorcyclist overtook him and skimmed across my bows. The motorcyclist was hidden on the far side of the stopped car. No amount of lights or hi viz clothing would have helped - there was just no line of sight.
    • almillar
    • By almillar 19th Oct 16, 2:14 PM
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    almillar
    OK, the basic version is - you should give way to all vehicles on the roundabout to your right. Not just cars. But you know that. You failed to give way to that vehicle.

    There are lots of circumstances that worked against you in this situation, and I do agree with you that a good driver could have been caught out. We can throw a few excuses away though:
    Cyclist wearing black - they can wear whatever they like.
    No helmet - they don't have to wear these.
    'Came flying round' - how fast can a cyclist go? Was he over the speed limit?
    A car stopped for you - they're not permitted to direct traffic, and you're under no obligation to go just because they stop.

    The only thing that would cover you would be if he was required, as below, to have his lights on. Otherwise some nutter bad cyclist and an over courteous driver has contributed to an accident that's your fault.

    This was always my understanding:
    The definition of "Night" is "Night (the hours of darkness) is defined as the period between half an hour after sunset and half an hour before sunrise)."
    You've got half an hour after sunset to turn lights on.

    one could argue that the cyclist was overtaking at a road junction
    Nope (IMO) - bicycles and motorcycles can 'filter' which has a different set of (vague) rules around it.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 19th Oct 16, 2:40 PM
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    Car 54
    OK, the basic version is - you should give way to all vehicles on the roundabout to your right.

    It isn't. The rule is "give priority to traffic approaching from your right ...". They don't have to be on the roundabout.

    'Came flying round' - how fast can a cyclist go? Was he over the speed limit?

    Speed limits do not apply to pedal cyclists (unless the roundabout was in a royal park).

    Nope (IMO) - bicycles and motorcycles can 'filter' which has a different set of (vague) rules around it.

    The rules on overtaking apply to all vehicles, 2-wheeled or 4.
    Originally posted by almillar
    See comments in bold.
    • Norman Castle
    • By Norman Castle 19th Oct 16, 4:45 PM
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    Norman Castle
    'Came flying round' - how fast can a cyclist go? Was he over the speed limit?
    A car stopped for you - they're not permitted to direct traffic, and you're under no obligation to go just because they stop.
    Originally posted by almillar
    The op doesn't know how fast the cyclist was going because she didn't see him. She also thinks the car stopped to allow her to go although its not clear why she thought this and as she didn't stop herself she made a very quick decision on whether it was safe or not.

    If I was at a small roundabout and had a cyclist alongside me its likely I would wait and let the cyclist go first. Is it possible thats why the other car was waiting?
    Last edited by Norman Castle; 19-10-2016 at 4:50 PM.
    Too cool for school. Also too old for school.
    • Kim kim
    • By Kim kim 19th Oct 16, 6:32 PM
    • 1,645 Posts
    • 2,499 Thanks
    Kim kim
    I have a feeling this will come as a shock to you.

    A driver of a car that is not insured in anyway is legally entitled to claim from another vehicles insurance is the other other vehicle was at fault in the accident.

    Why do you think different laws should apply to cyclists or pedestrians when an uninsured driver who legally should hold insurance can claim?
    Originally posted by dacouch
    For someone to drive a car without insurance is an offence, to ride a bike on the public highway is not.
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 19th Oct 16, 6:32 PM
    • 3,320 Posts
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    jack_pott
    I can tell you precisely why you probably didn't see him. The same reasons that most 'looked but failed to see' accidents occur
    Originally posted by lister

    Fighter Pilot’s Guide to Surviving on the Roads.
    • dacouch
    • By dacouch 19th Oct 16, 6:43 PM
    • 19,737 Posts
    • 12,107 Thanks
    dacouch
    For someone to drive a car without insurance is an offence, to ride a bike on the public highway is not.
    Originally posted by Kim kim
    It may be an offence but not having insurance does not prevent you claiming from another vehicles Insurer if they are at fault.
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 19th Oct 16, 8:46 PM
    • 228 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    Was there a cycle path a little further up on the other side of the road?
    Originally posted by Joe Horner
    Oooh, you mischievous poster.....
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 19th Oct 16, 9:00 PM
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    Joe Horner
    Oooh, you mischievous poster.....
    Originally posted by Aylesbury Duck
    It had to be asked, even back then
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 19th Oct 16, 9:24 PM
    • 258 Posts
    • 138 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    I don't think the OP is Kraken.


    nobody's been "called out" yet and nor has anyone been accused of ad hominem attacks.


    And nobody's been accused of "failing to learn their lesson". (Yet).
    • almillar
    • By almillar 20th Oct 16, 1:20 PM
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    almillar
    It isn't. The rule is "give priority to traffic approaching from your right ...". They don't have to be on the roundabout.
    Yes - thanks for the clarification - makes the matter worse for OP as cyclist didn't even need to be on the roundabout.

    Speed limits do not apply to pedal cyclists (unless the roundabout was in a royal park).
    Yes - my point being that a cyclist can't really be going all that fast, and OP can only guess their speed anyway

    The rules on overtaking apply to all vehicles, 2-wheeled or 4.
    I know that, but no overtaking happened here as some people had said. Filtering happened, which is different from overtaking.
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 20th Oct 16, 1:25 PM
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    Joe Horner
    I know that, but no overtaking happened here as some people had said. Filtering happened, which is different from overtaking.
    Originally posted by almillar

    That's a matter of semantics and a whole other can o worms
    • roroy
    • By roroy 20th Oct 16, 2:02 PM
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    roroy
    Irrespective of semantics and the apparent blasting of someone who was in an accident both parties are to blame here. Cyclists have a responsibility to be seen and not to recklessly enter roundabouts at speed (there must have been some speed involved or the cyclist would not have hit the side of the OP's car and would have had time to break), motorist have a responsibility to be vigilant for cyclists even if they drive in a wreckless manner.

    I agree with a previous comment, if the car hit the bike from the right, this forum would say its the cars fault for not being vigilante and questioning who entered the round about first.

    And for the record - cyclists need to "light up" at sunset where as motorists have 30 mins later
    • Tilt
    • By Tilt 20th Oct 16, 2:25 PM
    • 3,369 Posts
    • 1,579 Thanks
    Tilt
    Yes drivers should always look out for ninja cyclists at night, especially in rural areas. BUT when an accident does occur with such a cyclist, it follows that generally the motorist will have a defence. Mind you, in cases such as the one below, that won't remove the years of emotional nightmares the driver will be left with afterwards.

    http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/death_of_welwyn_garden_city_violinist_a_tragic_acc ident_says_coroner_1_1115588
    PLEASE NOTE
    My advice should be used as guidance only. You should always obtain face to face professional advice before taking any action.
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