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  • FIRST POST
    • emmasaunders
    • By emmasaunders 18th Oct 16, 4:39 PM
    • 27Posts
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    emmasaunders
    Cyclist collision at mini round about
    • #1
    • 18th Oct 16, 4:39 PM
    Cyclist collision at mini round about 18th Oct 16 at 4:39 PM
    Hi advice on whose at fault. Last night at around sunset, a cyclist hit me at a mini round about drivers front wing. I pulled up at mini round about and saw the car to my right stationary so proceeded to enter the round about. I then hear a thud and a cyclist has collided with my rhs near the mini round about. I didn't see him, I imagine when I pulled off he was at the right side of the car at my right so I had no clear view of him, plus he was wearing all black, no pedal reflectors and no front light, just a back light, no helmet. I wish I took a photo of the fact he had no front light on at the scene. He didn't require and ambulance but was hit from bike. Any ideas how this may unfold? He stated that he saw a learner to his right and thought he could make it in time and probably didn't look infront. I understand traffic to the right has right of way but when a car to my right has stopped to give way to me it necessitates that I should have entered the round about, I imagine the cyclist didn't come to a stop at the give way sign and was just concentrating on beating traffic to his right
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    • rtho782
    • By rtho782 18th Oct 16, 9:49 PM
    • 621 Posts
    • 397 Thanks
    rtho782
    even though he did not have lights was dressed in black and had no reflectors?
    Originally posted by emmasaunders
    No.

    That's like saying "It's not my fault I raped her she was dressed proactively".

    How the cyclist was dressed is not relevant, you are responsible for looking.

    I ride a motorbike, drivers like you terrify me. It's your responsibility to see me, not my responsibility to dress like a Christmas tree.
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    • BeenThroughItAll
    • By BeenThroughItAll 18th Oct 16, 9:50 PM
    • 3,463 Posts
    • 2,772 Thanks
    BeenThroughItAll
    This is very like a certain lane-hogger's thread recently posted.
    • emmasaunders
    • By emmasaunders 18th Oct 16, 9:51 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    emmasaunders
    yes I can fully see how this can happen to a competent driver - I can see how it can happen to an incompetent cyclist - I cant see how it can happen to a competent driver AND a competent cyclist, so mitigating factors need to be looked at as I have done throughout this thread

    This CAN happen to competent drivers when cyclists with no lights filter at speed through junctions AND did.
    • emmasaunders
    • By emmasaunders 18th Oct 16, 9:52 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    emmasaunders
    Is it the motorcyclists right to drive appropriately AND have headlights?
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 18th Oct 16, 10:10 PM
    • 3,658 Posts
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    Joe Horner
    yes I can fully see how this can happen to a competent driver [...]
    Originally posted by emmasaunders
    Except that, by definition, a competent driver would be working out what they could have done differently rather than finding all the reasons they "were't to blame". Because it's that attitude of learning to avoid incidents regardless of who's "at fault" that makes them competent drivers in the first place.
    • Kim kim
    • By Kim kim 18th Oct 16, 10:11 PM
    • 1,611 Posts
    • 2,453 Thanks
    Kim kim
    yes I can fully see how this can happen to a competent driver - I can see how it can happen to an incompetent cyclist - I cant see how it can happen to a competent driver AND a competent cyclist, so mitigating factors need to be looked at as I have done throughout this thread

    This CAN happen to competent drivers when cyclists with no lights filter at speed through junctions AND did.
    Originally posted by emmasaunders
    Even if they had a front light they're not exactly powerful & if the bike was hidden by the car, it's unlikely you'd have picked out a feeble bike light in among car headlights.

    You were unlucky, it could happen to any of us. I hope you don't get a claim against your insurance.

    On a seperate note - Should bikes be allowed to claim against cars insurance? After all they don't have insurance.....
    • Strider590
    • By Strider590 18th Oct 16, 10:14 PM
    • 10,434 Posts
    • 5,752 Thanks
    Strider590
    Defensive driving, the act of driving in a manner as to mitigate the possibility of being involved in an accident caused by someone else's mistake or poor driving.

    In other words, assume all drivers are children and drive accordingly.
    Having the last word isn't the same as being right.......

    "Never confuse education with intelligence"
    • boliston
    • By boliston 18th Oct 16, 10:20 PM
    • 1,735 Posts
    • 1,271 Thanks
    boliston
    .....

    On a seperate note - Should bikes be allowed to claim against cars insurance? After all they don't have insurance.....
    Originally posted by Kim kim
    Does this mean that if a car driver badly injured a pedestrian (eg a driver failed to give way at a zebra crossing) that the pedestrian would not be able to claim anything for their injuries unless the pedestrian has insurance?
    • Fat Walt
    • By Fat Walt 18th Oct 16, 10:22 PM
    • 602 Posts
    • 327 Thanks
    Fat Walt
    Even if they had a front light they're not exactly powerful & if the bike was hidden by the car, it's unlikely you'd have picked out a feeble bike light in among car headlights.

    You were unlucky, it could happen to any of us. I hope you don't get a claim against your insurance.

    On a seperate note - Should bikes be allowed to claim against cars insurance? After all they don't have insurance.....
    Originally posted by Kim kim
    Not the bike no, but the rider most defiantly.
    • emmasaunders
    • By emmasaunders 18th Oct 16, 10:25 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    emmasaunders
    Been as we are throwing analogies everywhere, what if I was in the position of the cyclist and he in my position and I hit him at the side, coming from the right, with no lights on.

    Im sure alot of you would claim that would be my fault as I didn't have lights on
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 18th Oct 16, 10:28 PM
    • 3,658 Posts
    • 3,031 Thanks
    Joe Horner
    Not the bike no, but the rider most defiantly.
    Originally posted by Fat Walt
    Not sure that would work. Wouldn't it be better for the rider to claim against the driver's insurance rather than the car's?
    • Sleazy
    • By Sleazy 18th Oct 16, 10:37 PM
    • 2,692 Posts
    • 2,484 Thanks
    Sleazy
    Having looked quickly through most of the posts, and being both an ex-cyclist (mobility prevents me doing so currently), and a car driver, I have to say that on balance I believe that Emma is less 'guilty' than the cyclist. If it's dark, he has no lights, how is she expected to see him unless she is wearing infra-red goggles?

    Maybe a reason for her to look more carefully next time, but blame her for the accident? Not in my book.
    *** IF IN DOUBT, BLAME BREXIT ***
    • Fat Walt
    • By Fat Walt 18th Oct 16, 10:37 PM
    • 602 Posts
    • 327 Thanks
    Fat Walt
    Not sure that would work. Wouldn't it be better for the rider to claim against the driver's insurance rather than the car's?
    Originally posted by Joe Horner
    What if it were stolen and the driver didn't have any?
    • emmasaunders
    • By emmasaunders 18th Oct 16, 10:41 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    emmasaunders
    Ok so is it obvious that this wouldn't have happened to a competent careful driver?

    Everyone seems to be focussing on the fact that I'm coming up with excuses, I'm being quite balanced here. Competent drivers are on the look out for foreseeable reasonable risks on the road, not for cyclists flying through round abouts with lights off. If we all were to be as cautious for the possibility at any moment for a cyclist to hit us with no lights on, no one would even make a move on a mini round about
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 18th Oct 16, 10:44 PM
    • 1,401 Posts
    • 867 Thanks
    Car 54
    You're avoiding the issue. The RTA makes no mention of ambulance.

    I'll bet he has an injury so you should report it.
    Originally posted by Fat Walt
    If the OP produced her insurance certificate to the cyclist at the time then there is no need to report it to the police. But I'd be surprised if she did.
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 18th Oct 16, 10:51 PM
    • 3,658 Posts
    • 3,031 Thanks
    Joe Horner
    Ok so is it obvious that this wouldn't have happened to a competent careful driver?

    Everyone seems to be focussing on the fact that I'm coming up with excuses, I'm being quite balanced here. Competent drivers are on the look out for foreseeable reasonable risks on the road, not for cyclists flying through round abouts with lights off. If we all were to be as cautious for the possibility at any moment for a cyclist to hit us with no lights on, no one would even make a move on a mini round about
    Originally posted by emmasaunders
    But cyclists flying round roundabouts, or riding down the country lanes round here, or doing anything else, around sunset without any lights is entirely forseeable.

    Unless you drive round with your eyes closed (in which case there's no more argument) anyone who drives around that time will have seen unlit cyclists. That doesn't make them right, but it makes them forseeable.

    I haven't at any point said "you were to blame" for this, but you absolutely are to blame for your obvious attitude that will mean the next one - who might not be so lucky - is also "unforseeable" to you.

    I say again, STOP finding reasons why it "wasn't your fault" because who's fault it was doesn't matter. Take a tenth of the effort you've put this evening into justifying things and, instead, put it into learning from the experience and - next time - you may well spot the unlit cyclist before it happens.
    • Richard53
    • By Richard53 18th Oct 16, 10:59 PM
    • 2,213 Posts
    • 1,911 Thanks
    Richard53
    Even if they had a front light they're not exactly powerful
    Originally posted by Kim kim
    Not so. Modern bike lights (once you get beyond the '£5 for two' offferings in the supermarkets) are very powerful. I have two small ones, the size of a matchbox, which are piercingly bright - so much so that I have to angle them downwards to avoid dazzling oncoming drivers. Around £40 each. My main light (commuting after dark on rural roads) is like a WW2 searchlight and can set fire to hedgerows.


    Cyclists can have decent lights if they choose to.
    If all misfortunes were laid in one common heap whence everyone must take an equal portion, most people would be contented to take their own and depart. (Attrib. to Socrates)
    • Fat Walt
    • By Fat Walt 18th Oct 16, 11:01 PM
    • 602 Posts
    • 327 Thanks
    Fat Walt
    If the OP produced her insurance certificate to the cyclist at the time then there is no need to report it to the police. But I'd be surprised if she did.
    Originally posted by Car 54

    It's ok she wouldn't have to as he didn't need an ambulance.
    • dacouch
    • By dacouch 18th Oct 16, 11:02 PM
    • 19,724 Posts
    • 12,092 Thanks
    dacouch
    The Road Traffic Act 1991, s.42; The Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, s.

    is. As soon as the sun drops behind the horizon bicycle lights should be switched on even if there may be plenty of light left to see by on a clear evening. Failure to have the correct lights or reflectors can result in being issued a Fixed Penalty Notice where the maximum is £30[6] or you can be subject to a maximum fine of £1000 in the courts.
    Originally posted by emmasaunders
    Interesting use of google and copying and pasting to suite your own arguement.

    You've taken this website article http://www.cyclelaw.co.uk/the-responsibilities-of-a-cyclist#source6 and then copy & pasted parts of the text.

    Cycles are obliged to light up at "Night".

    The definition of "Night" is "Night (the hours of darkness) is defined as the period between half an hour after sunset and half an hour before sunrise)."

    You can argue all you want on here, when the cyclist puts a claim in against your Insurance, your Insurers will pay his claim. They may not judge you to be 100% at fault but they will judge you to be at least 50% at fault which will mean the cyclist can claim whatever percentage they judge you to be at fault from your Insurance. If they pay out to the cyclist then you will lose part of your no claims bonus and have a claim regarded as a fault claim against you.
    • Kim kim
    • By Kim kim 18th Oct 16, 11:03 PM
    • 1,611 Posts
    • 2,453 Thanks
    Kim kim
    Does this mean that if a car driver badly injured a pedestrian (eg a driver failed to give way at a zebra crossing) that the pedestrian would not be able to claim anything for their injuries unless the pedestrian has insurance?
    Originally posted by boliston
    No, pedestrians aren't operating a vehicle on the road.

    Can a pedestrian who is knocked over claim on the cars insurance?
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