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  • FIRST POST
    • Peter333
    • By Peter333 18th Oct 16, 3:41 PM
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    Peter333
    Advice please... Very pushy woman at the Church my wife goes to. (Very long post.)
    • #1
    • 18th Oct 16, 3:41 PM
    Advice please... Very pushy woman at the Church my wife goes to. (Very long post.) 18th Oct 16 at 3:41 PM
    OK some advice please. My wife has been attending the local Church in our little village since we have lived here (several years,) and she goes maybe twice a month.

    She was asked when we first came here, if she wanted to attend a monthly Group that met for worship and singing and a general chat. She went, and thought it was OK, but as she is not great in big groups, and not a hugely sociable person, she wasn’t a massive fan, especially as there were several loud, rather obnoxious characters there who liked the sound of their own voice. She generally just sat and listened. As the months passed, she grew to like it less, and went to it less.

    It got to the point where she was just getting bored with it, and she said although half a dozen of the 18-20 people who attend are quite OK, there are quite a few people there who are just snobs, who spend time bragging about their villa in Australia, and their holidays in Lapland, and how many material possessions they have, and there are also a few bigots.

    She said she felt relieved if it was cancelled, and felt her heart sink at the thought of going if it wasn’t. I said this is no way to live, dreading something every month. But she couldn't find a way to say she didn't want to go anymore.

    However, after getting so bored and fed up with it for so long, coupled with the fact that we have a lot going on in our lives right now, (from good happy stuff to quite stressful challenging stuff,) my wife decided to tell them she was withdrawing from the Group. She decided she would say ‘I have a lot going on right now; I wish to withdraw from the Group.’

    But she knew she couldn’t say it to the leader’s face, or even ring her, because this woman always tries to find solutions and remedies. She would have come up with a reason why my wife CAN attend this Group, or she would have said, ‘oh come to Prayer Morning instead,’ or, ‘The over 50s Group,’or ‘House group every Monday,’ when in actual fact, my wife doesn’t want to go to ANYthing. Just Church.

    So anyway, she decided to write a letter, and pop it through the leader’s letterbox saying ‘I am sorry I can't make the Group next Tuesday, as I have something on, and I can’t make November’s either sorry, and December and January is out for me too, as I have other plans for the dates.‘

    And then she went on to say ‘I am sorry to say this, but I am going to withdraw from the group. I have missed so many of the meetings this year because of other things getting in the way, and I feel bad every time I have to tell you I can't come, and it’s not fair on you or the group for me to keep not attending, so I am withdrawing. Also, as I have a lot going on in my life right now, I cannot commit to anything else – like any other groups or regular meetings. Thanks for everything and for inviting me, and I will see you in Church sometime.’ (She didn't have the heart to say 'I just don't like it,' so she just said she won't be coming anymore as she finds it hard to regularly attend anything at this point in her life.)

    Well, this was 2 days ago. Then this morning, the leader of the Group rang and we didn’t answer as we were in the garage, and she left a message saying ‘You don't need to leave the Group, and you don’t have to feel bad if you don’t come every month, just come when you can make it. And you sounded stressed in your letter, I hope everything is OK. Let’s meet for a coffee; I am in all afternoon and tomorrow, so ring me back, and we will arrange to meet for a coffee and a long chat.’

    Argh! Did she even read the letter? Or did she read it and just pay no attention? My wife said she was withdrawing from the Group, and has a lot going on in her life right now, and doesn't want to commit to anything. Yet, now this woman has put my wife under pressure to still attend the Group 'when she can,' and she has also put her under pressure to ring her back and arrange to meet for a 'chat!' My wife shouldn't need to explain herself any further.

    I don't think this woman means any harm, but she is so pushy, and can’t seem to take the hint! My wife just wants to relax and regroup and have some peace, as we have had so much going on lately, and this woman has just put her in an awkward position. Why could she not have just said ‘thanks for the letter, sorry you’re leaving the Group, you are welcome back at any time, ring me if you need to talk!’

    Not ‘well, you can still come to the Group, no-one said you had to come EVERY month, and ring me and we will arrange to meet for a coffee and a chat about everything!’

    My wife is almost back at square one now!

    This is the same women BTW, who (some months back,) made half the Group members put their private phone number on a piece of paper, and the other half pick them out, and said they had to ring the person whose number they had, for a coffee, to get to know them better. Loads of people felt awkward. I know the woman means well, but I found what she did very manipulative.

    I know my wife didn't tell the leader that she simply doesn't like coming, but even if she had, this woman would still have tried to remedy it, and find a way to make her keep coming!!!

    What should my wife do next?

    Thanks for reading this, and for listening.
    As of 25th October 2016, I am not participating in this site. Until MSE sorts out the issue with insidious trouble-makers, it's no longer a place I wish to be. I can't be bothered with the constant battle with trolls.

    MSE is not a nice place to be at the moment, and hasn't been for a while now. So I'm outta here for the foreseeable future.
Page 3
    • surveyqueenuk
    • By surveyqueenuk 18th Oct 16, 7:18 PM
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    surveyqueenuk
    I honestly think this is a bit sad, so many people come on here saying no one cares about them, no one is interested in their welfare etc, etc.

    She may be a pushy woman but she has bothered to reach out to check your wife is ok.
    Originally posted by ognum
    Well, exactly. Regardless of what this woman is like, she is still a Christian and surely this would be the Christian thing to do.
    • duchy
    • By duchy 18th Oct 16, 8:36 PM
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    duchy
    If you wife had written honestly that the group simply wasn't for her at the moment rather than a load of lies about not wanting to be a dead weight to the group then she wouldn't be in this situation. If you tell social lies to make yourself look better and they are believed then you can only expect a response like she got.

    Best she does nothing but maybe in future is more honest with people.
    I Would Rather Climb A Mountain Than Crawl Into A Hole

    Apparently having a "Quirky and Hipster" wedding
    • lika_86
    • By lika_86 18th Oct 16, 10:11 PM
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    lika_86
    The woman's reaction was normal and caring based on your wife's letter. You're overreacting.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 18th Oct 16, 10:22 PM
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    TBagpuss
    I think as others have said that part of the problem is that your wife's letter wasn't very clear. She didn't say that she doesn't want to go to the group, she said she was too busy and didn't think it was fair to the other members.

    So a response offering to meet up, and inviting her to come when she can isn't pushy, it is responding in a friendly way to what she said, albeit failing to guess that what she said wasn't actually what she meant.

    She has a couple of options. One is to call the woman back (if she is concerned she'll find it difficult to get off the phone, set a kitchen timer or alarm clock before she picks up the phone, then when it goes off she can say 'got to go,before that burns, byee' or the equivalent) thank her for her note, explain that she's fine, just busy, and that she would prefer simply to attend church, rather than being involved in the group. If the woman suggests other groups she can simply say "As I said, I plan to simply come to church at present. I'll get in touch if I d need an introduction to another church" which is firm but polite.

    She can do nothing. But that may well lead to further contact as this lady may be concerned about her, and may pass on her concerns to others so she may find that other church members start getting in touch to see if she needs help or support.

    She could phone the lady and be honest. Tell her that she found the group wasn't the best fit for her, and that she was trying to bow out gracefully rather than say she felt uncomfortable. She can explain that she has now withdrawn but that this lady, as the group leader, might want to be aware that some of the other members come across as quite clique-y and boastful and that that was part of the reason your wife felt uncomfortable.

    Finally, she could chose to speak to the vicar / minister and explain to them that she felt uncomfortable in the group and that while the lady in question no doubt means well, and that her response was reasonable in light of the letter sent, that she (your wife) felt under pressure to remain in the group or to give more detailed reasons for leaving, and has felt that the lady is rather pushy and overwhelming. That way, if 'pushy' lady raises her concerns with the vicar he or she will have some context, and also makes them aware of the way the group came over to your wife as a relative new-comer.
    • Quizzical Squirrel
    • By Quizzical Squirrel 18th Oct 16, 10:34 PM
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    Quizzical Squirrel
    Firstly, I think you should stop using this misogynistic phrase 'pushy woman'!

    Secondly, I also think the woman is genuinely concerned. It's her job to care about members in a faith support group.

    Your wife doesn't appear to be much of an asset to the group so the woman is probably not attempting to reach out to her on that basis.

    The inadvertent message that your wife has given is that something may be amiss.

    I'm used to small village life and my advice is to go for for that coffee and put the woman's mind at rest. It's just an hour then it's done.

    It will be better in the long run and you never know when you may need someone with her skills on your side.

    Also, rumours start easily in small villages and you don't want people to be looking askew at you for signs of domestic abuse or something like that.
    • Diary
    • By Diary 18th Oct 16, 10:52 PM
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    Diary
    Don't know about 'pushy woman' but pushy, interfering husband springs to mind.
    Master Apothecary Faranell replied, “I assure you, overseer, the Royal Apothecary Society dearly wishes to make up for the tragic misguidance which ended so many lives. We will cause you no trouble. We seek only to continue our research in peace".
    • helcat26
    • By helcat26 18th Oct 16, 11:05 PM
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    helcat26
    The problem is not the "pushy woman" it is you and your wife not being able to tell the truth.
    Let us practice
    I do not want to come to the group anymore
    Why
    I do not enjoy it and feel belittled
    Can we fix that?
    No I just want to go to the church and not your group


    And for crying out loud get an outside interest maybe a charity- this is so much a first world problem/ I worry what the village may think of me - that it comes across as laughable - so why don't you and your wife devote so time to doing something good
    • Flinchy-Stryder
    • By Flinchy-Stryder 18th Oct 16, 11:20 PM
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    Flinchy-Stryder
    This is a few minutes of my life i'll never get back. Most pointless story i've ever read and that speaks volumes cause i read the Metro lol.
    • Peter333
    • By Peter333 18th Oct 16, 11:32 PM
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    Peter333
    I do appreciate all the advice and posts on here, and I understand that most people think my wife should contact this woman and explain that she isn't depressed and hasn't got masses of problems, and that she is just a bit preoccupied with life at the moment, and that she hopes she's not offended, but she will stick to withdrawing from the Group.

    And I get that ignoring the woman and not responding is perhaps not the best option. (Even though it's what she felt like doing earlier, as she felt pestered by the woman at the time.)

    Have to say though, that although some people are saying she should have just said 'I don't want to come anymore,' and 'it's not for me, I don't like it, I am not keen on the people etc,' I find it hard to believe that all the people saying my wife should have said all this, would have said this themselves.

    I know people like to think they are assertive and would have said this and that, but I very much doubt they would. Maybe one or two people would have, but many wouldn't... I reckon 2 out of 3 people saying my wife should have just said 'I don't wanna come, I am bored with it, not for me, don't like the people,' would not have said it themselves and would have also made a lame excuse, rather than be honest.

    And as I have said several times, if my wife HAD said this, the woman would have just come up with a solution or an alternative. My wife had to make it clear - somehow - that she was not up for ANYthing.

    I should probably add that when my wife first joined, this woman kept asking her to come to the Church 'House group' and to a 'ladies group,' and she was asked if she could volunteer to join in with the kids group on a Tuesday morning, (as she wasn't working at the time.) And also a few other things. She just kept asking...

    My wife would say 'no sorry, Tuesdays are hard for me (as this was the first thing that came to her mind,) and the woman would say 'well, house group is on a Monday, so come to that, then when she made some excuse for that, the woman would say ummmmmm, and then say 'well ladies group is on a Friday.' No matter what my wife said, this woman would come up with a solution or a reason why she can do this instead, or that instead.

    I am mentioning this, as it may go some way to explain why she said 'I am very busy and have a lot on at the moment, and can't commit to ANYTHING.' This closed down any possibilities for this woman to suggest something else. But now of course, she is (apparently) 'concerned...'

    So I guess my wife better contact her and just say firmly that she won't be coming back, and will not be participating in any other group, and she will just see her at Church, seeing as the woman didn't get the message from her letter.

    Also wanted to add... someone my wife knows from Church and who we see at the pub occasionally, started coming to Church with her husband when they moved into the village about 1.5 years ago. He was all full of it, volunteering for everything in the Church, handing out the books on the way in, helping arrange the flowers, doing tea duty, and making sarcastic remarks when my wife didn't go for 3 weeks once. 'Thought you'd emigrated we haven't seen you for so long!'

    SHE was pretty smug too and took her bible everywhere, and waffled verses from it to my wife, and said 'which book is this from?' as a 'test.'

    Then out of the blue, after about a year, HE stopped coming. Just stopped. The regulars that have been going for years, kept asking what was wrong and when he is coming back. The woman was just red faced and looked awkward, and said 'he is just struggling at the moment... Life has been stressful and he is just wanting some time out.'

    Half a year later, he still doesn't go.

    Upshot is, he was never a believer at all, and didnt give a stuff about Jesus. He just came to the Church to 'fit in' in the village. Then after a while, he realised he didn't need to do that, and so couldn't be bothered anymore.

    It stopped his wife being so darned smug though! But yeah, even now, this woman still winces if someone says 'he still isn't here then?!' Even 6 months later, people are still questioning it.

    I know that some Church people are the 'concerned' type, but there is a fine line between 'concerned' and actually being overbearing, and pestering people.

    And there is nothing 'misogynistic' about saying 'annoying pushy woman,' nor am I an annoying pushy husband. I am just trying to get advice for my wife. No idea WHY these 2 posters felt the need to berate me like this, but hey ho. Guess I have to take the rough with the smooth on here. The good and helpful comments on here have massively outweighed comments like this.

    Thanks again everyone who gave good and helpful advice and constructive criticism. I do appreciate all the help, and I agree that my wife needs to contact this woman, otherwise she will just keep pestering her.
    Last edited by Peter333; 18-10-2016 at 11:38 PM.
    As of 25th October 2016, I am not participating in this site. Until MSE sorts out the issue with insidious trouble-makers, it's no longer a place I wish to be. I can't be bothered with the constant battle with trolls.

    MSE is not a nice place to be at the moment, and hasn't been for a while now. So I'm outta here for the foreseeable future.
    • maman
    • By maman 19th Oct 16, 12:02 AM
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    maman
    And here endeth the lesson.

    Or at least I hope so!
    • mgdavid
    • By mgdavid 19th Oct 16, 12:44 AM
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    mgdavid
    ........

    Have to say though, that although some people are saying she should have just said 'I don't want to come anymore,' and 'it's not for me, I don't like it, I am not keen on the people etc,' I find it hard to believe that all the people saying my wife should have said all this, would have said this themselves.

    I know people like to think they are assertive and would have said this and that, but I very much doubt they would. Maybe one or two people would have, but many wouldn't... I reckon 2 out of 3 people saying my wife should have just said 'I don't wanna come, I am bored with it, not for me, don't like the people,' would not have said it themselves and would have also made a lame excuse, rather than be honest.

    And as I have said several times, if my wife HAD said this, the woman would have just come up with a solution or an alternative. My wife had to make it clear - somehow - that she was not up for ANYthing.

    .........
    Originally posted by Peter333
    you seem very keen to second-guess other people's reactions, and their ability (or lack of) to be truthful, straight, and to the point.

    Except you are 90% wrong!

    Cut the waffle, get a grip, say *exactly* what you mean and mean what you say.
    A salary slave no more.....
    • Kynthia
    • By Kynthia 19th Oct 16, 12:52 AM
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    Kynthia
    We can't know whether the woman would have refused to take no for an answer if your wife had been more honest as you've met her and we haven't. However what is clear is that most people here agree that the response was understandable based on your wife's letter. Your wife wasn't that clear and she gave the impression she would like to attend but felt she shouldn't with attending so infrequently and that there was a lot going on in her life right now.

    I would probably ring the woman and thank her for her kind offer. Then sat that not to worry and that things are fine but that i had other commitments and wasn't really getting much out of the group, so I'd prefer to just attend church rather than get involved in other things. Then repeat if she comes up with solutions.
    Don't listen to me, I'm no expert!
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 19th Oct 16, 2:50 AM
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    seven-day-weekend
    She is not being pushy, she is being (or at least attempting to be) friendly and inclusive.

    Your wife should just have said, or written, that she wasn't coming any more, and just said thanks but no thanks to any follow up.

    If the woman had said nothing, or 'bye then!' she would have been accused of being uncaring.

    I HAVE said it myself, recently, in a similar scenario. The person I said it to also suggested alternatives. I just said no thanks, with a smile. He then said it was my decision, but I was always welcome if I changed my mind. I haven't changed it yet, but have seen the person on a few occasions since and we are always pleased to see each other and friendly towards each other.
    Last edited by seven-day-weekend; 19-10-2016 at 7:08 AM.
    To love someone is to learn the song in their heart and to sing it to them when they have forgotten it
    'I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because I see everything by it': C.S. Lewis
    St. Augustine — 'In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.'
    • Elinore
    • By Elinore 19th Oct 16, 6:57 AM
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    Elinore
    I am sorry but i have to side with the pushy woman. The issue is not her, its how your wife is dealing with her. THe letter was not clear - i know you think it was but it gave mixed messages just like the conversations you have noted - that you wife is to busy and would come otherwise.

    Pushy woman - You could come tuesday?

    Your wife - That's not good for me.

    Pushy woman - There is a group on friday?

    Your wife - Oh thats not great for me either?

    Pushy woman - Lets see then, I have the ladies group on sunday morning?

    And so on - ramping up the awkwardness and stress

    -------- OR

    Pushy woman - You could come tuesday?

    Your wife - Currently i am only looking to attend church, but thank you for your very kind offer.

    Pushy Woman - Are you sure? we could do with help with the kids club on a wednesday if that is better, it would be really appreciated.

    Your wife - Thank you for the invite, but i really can only attend church.

    Pushy Woman - Thats a shame we really miss your imput - Are you sure i cant interest you in the teenage day school on the saturday morning

    Your wife - As its falls outside visiting for my sunday worship, 'afraid not. I am just looking to attend church. THank you anyway. Oh look, there is a *something* over there that i must acquaint myself with.

    Clearer, no lies, no prevarication, no confusion over mixed signals - no stress.
    Last edited by Elinore; 19-10-2016 at 7:07 AM.
    • BrassicWoman
    • By BrassicWoman 19th Oct 16, 7:36 AM
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    BrassicWoman

    Have to say though, that although some people are saying she should have just said 'I don't want to come anymore,' and 'it's not for me, I don't like it, I am not keen on the people etc,' I find it hard to believe that all the people saying my wife should have said all this, would have said this themselves.
    Originally posted by Peter333
    Well, after the first couple of goes at the group when I knew it wasnt for me I would have stopped going.

    "It's been great finding out what you do here but it's just not for me. Hope to see you at church on Sunday."

    It's not mean, hurtful or difficult. There's also no shadow of a lie in there.

    I am far more concerned about why you are being the mouthpiece for your wife here and she isn't posting herself. If she wanted opinions surely she would ask for them herself? So I am not sure why you are inserting yourself on her behalf.

    Perhaps she just needs more practice being allowed to converse with people directly.
    May GC £215/£50 (oops)
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    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 19th Oct 16, 7:39 AM
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    FBaby
    Upshot is, he was never a believer at all, and didnt give a stuff about Jesus. He just came to the Church to 'fit in' in the village. Then after a while, he realised he didn't need to do that, and so couldn't be bothered anymore.
    That sounds like church gossip in its glory!
    • iammumtoone
    • By iammumtoone 19th Oct 16, 7:45 AM
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    iammumtoone
    And as I have said several times, if my wife HAD said this, the woman would have just come up with a solution or an alternative. My wife had to make it clear - somehow - that she was not up for ANYthing.

    I should probably add that when my wife first joined, this woman kept asking her to come to the Church 'House group' and to a 'ladies group,' and she was asked if she could volunteer to join in with the kids group on a Tuesday morning, (as she wasn't working at the time.) And also a few other things. She just kept asking...

    My wife would say 'no sorry, Tuesdays are hard for me (as this was the first thing that came to her mind,) and the woman would say 'well, house group is on a Monday, so come to that, then when she made some excuse for that, the woman would say ummmmmm, and then say 'well ladies group is on a Friday.' No matter what my wife said, this woman would come up with a solution or a reason why she can do this instead, or that instead.
    Originally posted by Peter333
    I can see why you thought in above conversion the women was being pushy but consider this may not be the case, most people would have picked up that your wife was trying to get out of it BUT not all, I am not saying the women is, but autistic people for example don't pick up on subtle social clues/words they NEED to be given a direct answer to question understand, its not their fault. Many people are like this even if they if they are not autistic, it seems your wife has been lucky so far not to have come across people whos mind only works with direct responses, they can't help it.
    • iammumtoone
    • By iammumtoone 19th Oct 16, 7:48 AM
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    iammumtoone
    I am far more concerned about why you are being the mouthpiece for your wife here and she isn't posting herself. If she wanted opinions surely she would ask for them herself? So I am not sure why you are inserting yourself on her behalf.
    Originally posted by BrassicWoman
    Thats a bit uncalled for, his wife is probably not a member. I am sure she is reading there is no indication peter has posted without her permission.

    If she had of signed up to ask she should have been accused of being a troll with a unusual post for a first question - you really can't win on this board.
    • BrassicWoman
    • By BrassicWoman 19th Oct 16, 8:14 AM
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    BrassicWoman
    Thats a bit uncalled for, his wife is probably not a member. I am sure she is reading there is no indication peter has posted without her permission.

    If she had of signed up to ask she should have been accused of being a troll with a unusual post for a first question - you really can't win on this board.
    Originally posted by iammumtoone
    Peter is not telling us what his wife thinks of the comments and suggestons. Peter is telling us what Peter thinks.

    Peter, what have you shared with your wife and what does she think?
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    • paddy's mum
    • By paddy's mum 19th Oct 16, 8:25 AM
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    paddy's mum

    My wife would say 'no sorry, Tuesdays are hard for me (as this was the first thing that came to her mind,) and the woman would say 'well, house group is on a Monday, so come to that, then when she made some excuse for that, the woman would say ummmmmm, and then say 'well ladies group is on a Friday.' No matter what my wife said, this woman would come up with a solution or a reason why she can do this instead, or that instead.
    Originally posted by Peter333
    Let's turn this scenario around and put it into another context.

    I noticed that you had commented on a recent thread by April about whether she should let her husband leave an obviously failing marriage. Let's imagine that April now needs to see a counsellor urgently to help her cope with the maelstrom of emotional torment but has to fit it around her own commitments and those of the counsellor.

    Receptionist: Four thirty on Tuesday is free.

    Mrs P: Sorry, Tuesdays are hard for me.

    Receptionist: Monday at ten forty?

    Mrs P: Can't do Monday as my car is booked in for an urgent repair.

    Receptionist: Friday afternoons he holds a Ladies Mutual Support circle if you felt that might be of use to you....?

    In those circumstances, wouldn't most people feel that far from being pushy, Ms Receptionist was being helpful and trying very hard to find an appointment that satisfied the needs of all parties?

    I think the absolute heart of this matter is that Mrs P "made some excuse" instead of just politely saying of such-and-such 'no thanks, it isn't my kind of thing'.

    There's a world of difference between telling a white lie to spare the feelings of someone you have no reason to hurt and being so wishy-washy that it invites the born organisers among us to step forward with a plan to remedy matters!
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