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  • FIRST POST
    • Murlton
    • By Murlton 18th Oct 16, 8:47 AM
    • 40Posts
    • 13Thanks
    Murlton
    CPM Parking Charge for Unauthorised Parking
    • #1
    • 18th Oct 16, 8:47 AM
    CPM Parking Charge for Unauthorised Parking 18th Oct 16 at 8:47 AM
    Hi guys,

    First of all I'd just like to apologise for making yet another thread about probably a very similar situation to someone previously 'charged' by UK CPM. However, after reading many different posts and the NEWBIE thread I'm still unsure how exactly I should move forward with this.

    I've come to understand it's no longer a good idea to just out right ignore the 'invoice' as soon as you get it, this was always how I thought this should be handled. When did this change?

    So, the story.. I was looking for parking at my local Tesco Metro (located on a small piece of land that shares with two other stores, a loan shop and a restaurant) and the car park was full, so I parked outside the front of the restaurant (this is still on the car park, just not within a bay). This is a routine thing that happens, you'd be hard pressed to find a time or day when someone isn't parked there as there are often 2-3 cars parked in that area outside of a bay. Looking at the photo of my car it appears one of my wheels may have JUST been in a yellow hatched box, however I'm not sure if that's the problem or if it's just being out of a bay. Having received this letter I didn't think there were any signs showing the restrictions but it appears they do exist quite high up. Everyone I've spoken to about this has been surprised there were signs as each thought they didn't exist. Having looked on google maps, the signs were not present as of June 2016 so this must be a rather new thing they've put in place.

    Anyway, yes I was parked outside of a bay and yes I may have been slightly within a yellow hatched box, but I was not blocking any entrances and it was for a maximum or five minutes. The reason I've commented is because I'm not sure if I have a leg to stand on with this?

    Looking through the forums it seems the course of action required is to appeal using the generic IPC letter with the 8 points. This appeal will they most definitely be rejected, and then I should do what? Is that the point I begin ignoring them or should I appeal to the IAS first? Is there any point I should contact the restaurant I was parked outside of and see if they will cancel it?

    Many thanks guys and girls, sorry again if you've heard all this before. I just need a push in the right direction is all!

    Thanks
    Last edited by Murlton; 18-10-2016 at 10:10 AM.
Page 2
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Apr 17, 2:35 PM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,107 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Who does it ask you to make payment to and does the ref start with a 1 or does it start with a 3?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Murlton
    • By Murlton 3rd Apr 17, 2:59 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Murlton
    Hi Coupon-mad,

    The ref starts with a 3, may I ask why you want to know?

    The payment is for DRP, not them.

    Does everyone receive a LBCCC? Or is it possible that some people never get to that stage?


    Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Apr 17, 3:13 PM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,107 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Because Gan on pepipoo has pointed out before that a ref starting with a 3 is in fact a debt collector using Gladstones notepaper (with their agreement) and not a letter from any solicitor's desk.

    This is proven by you confirming that this letter asks for payment to...the debt collector who sent it! Ignore.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Murlton
    • By Murlton 3rd Apr 17, 3:44 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Murlton
    Seriously? So at this point is there any actual link with Gladstones? Like if I rang them and stated the ref number, would they acknowledge it exists?

    If this was a real LBCCC letter, would it be asking me to pay the solicitors?

    Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Apr 17, 7:04 PM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,107 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So at this point is there any actual link with Gladstones? Like if I rang them and stated the ref number, would they acknowledge it exists?
    They'd put you through to the debt firm...

    If this was a real LBCCC letter, would it be asking me to pay the solicitors?
    Yes.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Demi17
    • By Demi17 3rd Apr 17, 8:50 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Demi17
    Hi sorry to jump on this thread. I have also recieved the same letter with reference number 3 asking me to pay DRP. Am I right to ignore this. I have not responded at all to any of the letters (I believe this is actually the wrong thing to do?!) I was told to ignore them totally and believe this was now the wrong thing to do.

    My question is do I continue to ignore unless I get a letter from the court? If I do get a letter from the court am I able to pay the fine there and then without going to court or would it then be too late? I don't want to go to court so wondering what the best action is to take? Thanks!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Apr 17, 8:55 PM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,107 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Why would we advise any differently to you? Obviously ignore debt collector letters, since you started by ignoring the PCN this is not the time to engage.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Murlton
    • By Murlton 4th Apr 17, 8:37 AM
    • 40 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Murlton
    Can't help but feel that a CCJ is just round the corner. At the time of the parking charge there were 100s of others also receiving them as it was a change in the parking scheme that caught everyone off guard. So lets say 500 people got this 'parking charge' and all of them took the advice you guys gave to get them to this point.. would all 500 of them have got this fake Gladstones letter? What kind of percentage do we expect will then receive a CCJ? Feels like its the inevitable ending to all of this ha!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Apr 17, 12:46 AM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,107 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You are worrying about a tiny percentage chance, look:

    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/UK_Car_Park_Management.html

    and I don't recall that we've ever seen a Gladstones one lost where this forum's style defence was used, followed by a witness statement/evidence with our input. All won or discontinued, for a year.

    And there will be no 'CCJ' even if you lost at a hearing because you would then pay (about £175 typically, as seen on other forums or reports where people have lost) within 30 days and nothing remains on the register at all; not even a satisfied judgment (it isn't one of those). Your credit score is unaffected.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • chloelouise97
    • By chloelouise97 6th Apr 17, 6:47 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    chloelouise97
    Sorry to jump on here! What if ref starts with a 2?
    • completelyfubar
    • By completelyfubar 24th Aug 17, 8:01 AM
    • 34 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    completelyfubar
    Me too
    I have also been snapped by the same cafe owner last October in the very same position, same car park.
    I am wondering were you are with it... I have received my court claim and composing my defence at the moment.
    I have another thread 'Claim Defence' that Coupon-mad has already replied to.

    I'm also wondering if there any more people on here snapped on the same car park that may be at 'court claim'
    Last edited by completelyfubar; 24-08-2017 at 8:36 AM. Reason: typo
    • Murlton
    • By Murlton 16th Sep 17, 3:51 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Murlton
    Hi guys, I'm back!

    So, I now appear to have received a legitimate Gladstones LBC. I have read through the newbie thread for answers on my next move but it's easy to get lost!

    Do I create my defence now? If so, who do I send it to? What it tells me is..

    "We now require you to pay the full amount within 14 days. Alternatively, you should provide an acknowledgement of receipt of this letter and a full written response within 14 days."

    This response it talks about.. is this where I provide my main defence?

    Thanks guys
    • completelyfubar
    • By completelyfubar 16th Sep 17, 4:13 PM
    • 34 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    completelyfubar
    Just a letter
    You just need to respond with a letter as per the stickie thread. It needs to be a response as keeper of the vehicle, do not admit to being the driver.
    There are templates for this one asking for the contract. Landowner details etc... They will just ignore this of course.
    They will then decide whether to pay the court fee and take it to claim.
    Your defence comes when/if they do this.
    • Murlton
    • By Murlton 16th Sep 17, 4:25 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Murlton
    I appealed with the default template that is in the sticky thread about 6 months. This was rejected immediately.

    Is it going to be the same letter I sent previously?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Sep 17, 4:46 PM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,107 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Alternatively, you should provide an acknowledgement of receipt of this letter and a full written response within 14 days."
    Do that then, to stop them issuing a claim before the rules change about small claim procedures, on 1st October.

    What letter did you send previously? Just be robust and ask them for photos and evidence.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Murlton
    • By Murlton 16th Sep 17, 5:12 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Murlton
    Rule changes? Whats changing that could affect this?

    The letter I sent previously was the generic IPC letter in the sticky thread. I think this was after the first letter.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Sep 17, 5:39 PM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,107 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Google is your friend. The keywords:

    small claims pre-action rules 1st october
    finds a result in 0.0001 seconds, with more detail than I have time to type.

    DO NOT tip off the other side about what they should do, or what a LBC should say. For obvious reasons!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Murlton
    • By Murlton 20th Sep 17, 3:22 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Murlton
    Do that then, to stop them issuing a claim before the rules change about small claim procedures, on 1st October.

    What letter did you send previously? Just be robust and ask them for photos and evidence.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Could someone please give this a quick read and share their thoughts on it before I send it out?

    Gladstones Solicitors
    The Terrace, High Legh Park Golf Club,
    Warrington Road, Knutsford, Cheshire,
    WA16 6AA

    19/09/2017

    REF: xxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Dear Sirs

    Re: LETTER BEFORE COUNTY COURT CLAIM dated [12/09/2017]

    I am writing to acknowledge receipt of the above letter.

    As requested in the Letter Before Claim I recently received I have checked the Practice Direction and have argument with your claim that you are fully compliant with it. The letter you sent is incorrect in its statement and quite frankly I find it worrying that a legal department staffed by solicitors is unable to produce a Letter Before Claim that adheres to the Practice Direction. I would also like to include that I have received no legal training and yet I am the one having to explain what the Practice Direction deems a requirement from you. I would certainly be interested if the solicitor in charge of the legal department approved the Letter Before Claim that fails to meet the necessary legal requirements before it was sent out.

    I would like to request that you send me a fully compliant Letter Before Claim so I can deal with my own obligations under the Practice Direction. To ensure you are able to meet my request I have attached an extract of the Practice Direction dealing with the requirements for a Claimant's Letter Before Claim.

    Should you seek to proceed with a claim I will apply for it to be struck out, due to CPR Part 3.4:

    (a) that Civil Enforcement's statement of case will disclose no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim;
    (b) that the statement of case will be an abuse of the court’s process or is otherwise likely to obstruct the just disposal of the proceedings; and
    (c) that there has been a failure to comply with a rule, practice direction or court order.

    Since you have no cause of action against me as registered keeper, should you proceed with a claim I will file a counter-claim for not less than £500 in compensation for distress caused by your unwarranted demands arising from misuse of the data you obtained from the DVLA for one purpose, yet are now processing it for another purpose not covered by the KADOE regulations.

    I expect Civil Enforcement to now cancel this 'parking charge' and admit its mistake in attempting to misuse my data, and in trying to mislead me by suggesting that a registered keeper is liable for a non-POFA parking charge 'debt', and that I could be liable for escalated costs/legal fees. As you will be aware, the general costs rule in Small Claims is that there is no costs order.

    However, in support of my own counter-claim, I must remind you that under CPR Rule 27.14(2)(g):

    ''costs can be awarded where a party behaves unreasonably''.

    I refer Civil Enforcement to paragraph 16 of the Practice Direction – Pre-Action Conduct:
    ''a party who has not complied with its pre-action obligations can be ordered to pay costs (even if the party has succeeded in its claim/defence) and there is also a power to remit/increase interest.''

    I expect to hear from you within 14 days to confirm that the charge is cancelled. Should you fail to cancel this PCN and/or pursue a baseless claim without supplying any evidence of any breach of a relevant contract or relevant obligation, or photographs, or the contract, or your basis for pursuing a registered keeper without the POFA 2012, you may consider this adequate notice of my intention to sue Civil Enforcement Ltd, for the significant distress your actions have caused to a vulnerable family.

    All letters exchanged will be used in evidence in court.

    Please do me the courtesy of reading and replying to this letter.

    Yours faithfully

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxx






    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Extract from Practice Direction
    Annex A

    2. Claimant’s letter before claim

    2.1
    The claimant’s letter should give concise details about the matter. This should enable the defendant to understand and investigate the issues without needing to request further information. The letter should include –

    (1) the claimant’s full name and address;
    (2) the basis on which the claim is made (i.e. why the claimant says the defendant is liable);
    (3) a clear summary of the facts on which the claim is based;
    (4) what the claimant wants from the defendant;
    (5) if financial loss is claimed, an explanation of how the amount has been calculated; and
    (6) details of any funding arrangement (within the meaning of rule 43.2(1)(k) of the CPR) that has been entered into by the claimant.

    2.2
    The letter should also –
    (1) list the essential documents on which the claimant intends to rely;
    (2) set out the form of ADR (if any) that the claimant considers the most suitable and invite the defendant to agree to this;
    (3) state the date by which the claimant considers it reasonable for a full response to be provided by the defendant; and
    (4) identify and ask for copies of any relevant documents not in the claimant's possession and which the claimant wishes to see.
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 20th Sep 17, 4:30 PM
    • 613 Posts
    • 1,122 Thanks
    safarmuk
    If you do the google search that C-M specified and look at the PDF offered, you will see the changes and what GS will be expected to adhere to (little chance). In particular sections 5 and 7 offer quite good insights into what after October 1st the other side (e.g. you) will be able to request in terms of information before they take the case to court and if they don't then they will have not complied with the pre-action protocols.

    Also take a look at this thread post #10 for some more background on what C-M is referring to:
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5712720#topofpage
    Last edited by safarmuk; 20-09-2017 at 4:36 PM.
    • Murlton
    • By Murlton 20th Sep 17, 9:10 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Murlton
    Thanks safarmuk, I will have a look! Could someone please have a glance at my LBC response before I send it off tomorrow?
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