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  • FIRST POST
    • ady19792
    • By ady19792 18th Oct 16, 12:30 AM
    • 13Posts
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    ady19792
    Discrimination case??
    • #1
    • 18th Oct 16, 12:30 AM
    Discrimination case?? 18th Oct 16 at 12:30 AM
    I work for a large national train company based at a railway station, their are 2 train different train companies on site.
    Recently a vacancy came up doing the same job as I do now (with 8 years experience) working for them. I approached their long serving manager who I have a good relationship with as we share a yard stating I was interested in their vacancy and how do I apply? He was very keen and told me he would love to have me working for them and gave me the details.
    I applied for the job and for a few weeks he was really chatty and saying hope you get the position. Then suddenly a few days later he became very distant telling me they had loads of applications and had narrowed it down to 6 people.
    I spoke to his work colleague (this manager is not liked very much by his staff, apparantly he is very lazy, gives himself the best hours and overtime) and when I said he has become a bit distant he informed me that the managers brother in law was just made redundant and this person showed me emails in the deleted folder of a laptop (which is shared on site) from the manager to a senior manager saying "give my brother in law the job" and "send me a copy of the questions that he will be asked in interview"
    The interviews were then carried out by neither the site manager, nor the person the site manager had been emailing. A few weeks later, I was interviewed felt it went really well but ended up being unsuccessful.
    The brother in law with zero experience has got the job, neither of the other staff are happy as they feel the manager and brother in law between them will give themselves the best shifts and overtime.

    The emails shown to me was in confidence and the person showing them to me was worried about repercussions and said I cannot give you a copy.
    The manager in question has 40 years service so a lot of staff beneath him are scared of him.
    So after making all the effort going for an interview was looking for some advice as I feel I have a discrimination case here, would like people's thoughts or opinions
    Last edited by ady19792; 18-10-2016 at 12:32 AM.
Page 1
    • asajj
    • By asajj 18th Oct 16, 12:49 AM
    • 3,702 Posts
    • 8,117 Thanks
    asajj
    • #2
    • 18th Oct 16, 12:49 AM
    • #2
    • 18th Oct 16, 12:49 AM
    Even if you have a case, you need to prove it by showing those emails I suppose. Doesn't your company has a formal process where you can demand to see your interview results and also raise the point about him recruiting a family member over yourself and other applicants. If emails sent through the company property, IT department should be able to dig them even though they are deleted. You said that the laptop is a shared one, so anyone could have seen them?

    Manager's laziness or brother-in-law lack of experience is not the problem here. Although annoying, it wouldn't come across unbiased after as an applicant, you didn't get the job.
    £2015 in 2015 / £2015

    No buying unnecessary stuff.
    Clearing out by selling on Ebay, donating to charity etc.
    • daytona0
    • By daytona0 18th Oct 16, 12:57 AM
    • 1,800 Posts
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    daytona0
    • #3
    • 18th Oct 16, 12:57 AM
    • #3
    • 18th Oct 16, 12:57 AM
    sangie will berate me if I don't post this, but discrimination of a protected characteristic includes:

    age
    being or becoming a transsexual person
    being married or in a civil partnership
    being pregnant or on maternity leave
    disability
    race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
    religion, belief or lack of religion/belief
    sex
    sexual orientation

    Do you feel that you have been "discriminated" under any of those? If not, you don't really have much of a case in the way of discrimination I'm afraid (unless you have asthma )

    Sorry lad, but I think it is one of them here You've been stitched up and chewed out big time. We've all been there! You just have to keep pushing on.
    Last edited by daytona0; 18-10-2016 at 1:00 AM.
    ent.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 18th Oct 16, 7:52 AM
    • 2,735 Posts
    • 4,278 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #4
    • 18th Oct 16, 7:52 AM
    • #4
    • 18th Oct 16, 7:52 AM
    sangie will berate me if I don't post this, but discrimination of a protected characteristic includes:

    age
    being or becoming a transsexual person
    being married or in a civil partnership
    being pregnant or on maternity leave
    disability
    race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
    religion, belief or lack of religion/belief
    sex
    sexual orientation

    Do you feel that you have been "discriminated" under any of those? If not, you don't really have much of a case in the way of discrimination I'm afraid (unless you have asthma )

    Sorry lad, but I think it is one of them here You've been stitched up and chewed out big time. We've all been there! You just have to keep pushing on.
    Originally posted by daytona0
    I wasn't planning on doing so, but if you really want me to, please just drop me a note next time telling me what you want me to say. (And no matter how many times you raise the irrelevant subject elsewhere, asthma is still a disability under the criteria laid down in the Equality Act 2010; and the fact that you don't like that, or that you would like a nice neat list of what is in and what is out, is also irrelevant).

    You missed out membership or non-membership of a trades union Discrimination is about more than just things covered by the Equality Act. If you are going to try to bait people, you really should try doing it more effectively. Whatever you think I did not report you. If I had, you would have been very aware of it because I would have told you (and everyone else) that I had.

    Past that, OP, I agree. There is no case here, even if you could prove it, which you cannot. And to be honest, you seemed to like this manager well enough when you appeared to think his influence might be helpful for you, didn't you? One minute he is really chatty and you have had a very good relationship with him so you approached him; but then he's just what the staff say, lazy and so on. I am not foolish enough to think that this sort of thing doesn't go on day in and day out across all industries. In fact there was a report published last year that evidenced that a major contributor to familial unemployment (multiple members of a family being out of work) and youth unemployment, has been the ending of the traditional manufacturing and other industries with there tradition of "sons following fathers" type of employment. Who you know has always been a factor - and will continue to be so. It isn't unlawful.

    And isn't it just the same kind of nepotism, being able to dig through his emails because you know someone?

    It would be really nice if everything in the world were fair. It isn't. And nor is it the case that if he hadn't got the job, you would have. And if they ever find out that you, by whatever means, have been digging through company email, you can expect the company to never want to employ you.
    • Stevie Palimo
    • By Stevie Palimo 18th Oct 16, 8:10 AM
    • 2,860 Posts
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    Stevie Palimo
    • #5
    • 18th Oct 16, 8:10 AM
    • #5
    • 18th Oct 16, 8:10 AM
    I do wonder at times as to why people believe certain things are just a given to them, As per above post completely and don't forget the fact that you went snooping here will 100% go against you.
    " I refuse to censor myself because it may offend someone. If you don't like me that's ok, I don't need your approval. "
    • bap98189
    • By bap98189 18th Oct 16, 8:14 AM
    • 2,029 Posts
    • 2,824 Thanks
    bap98189
    • #6
    • 18th Oct 16, 8:14 AM
    • #6
    • 18th Oct 16, 8:14 AM
    Forget it and move on. You do not have a discrimination case. The only way you would have some sort of discrimination case is if they made the decision on some form of protected characteristic such as gender, race, sexual orientation etc.

    You may have been overlooked in favour of a poorer candidate but that is not illegal. It is perfectly legal for an employer to give a job to whoever they wish.
    • ThemeOne
    • By ThemeOne 18th Oct 16, 8:53 AM
    • 701 Posts
    • 541 Thanks
    ThemeOne
    • #7
    • 18th Oct 16, 8:53 AM
    • #7
    • 18th Oct 16, 8:53 AM
    The only thing you can say is even if the brother-in-law hadn't come on the scene, you might still not have got the job.

    Something similar happened to me years ago in that I discovered a "conspiracy" not to even interview me for a promotion. I raised a grievance with HR and eventually received a modest ex-gratia payment but to be honest going down that road only added to the upset, and in view of the amount received, I probably wouldn't bother if it happened again, even though I felt I scored a moral victory.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 18th Oct 16, 8:59 AM
    • 2,735 Posts
    • 4,278 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #8
    • 18th Oct 16, 8:59 AM
    • #8
    • 18th Oct 16, 8:59 AM
    The only thing you can say is even if the brother-in-law hadn't come on the scene, you might still not have got the job.

    Something similar happened to me years ago in that I discovered a "conspiracy" not to even interview me for a promotion. I raised a grievance with HR and eventually received a modest ex-gratia payment but to be honest going down that road only added to the upset, and in view of the amount received, I probably wouldn't bother if it happened again, even though I felt I scored a moral victory.
    Originally posted by ThemeOne
    Believe it or not, that is often what I hear people who have won tribunals say. And I don't just mean people who won "a little bit of money". Many times, I have heard them say that even if the same thing happened again, and they had a great claim, they simply wouldn't do it. Because it makes them feel worse for longer, and the money at the end wasn't worth it.
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 18th Oct 16, 9:00 AM
    • 2,495 Posts
    • 3,294 Thanks
    Nick_C
    • #9
    • 18th Oct 16, 9:00 AM
    • #9
    • 18th Oct 16, 9:00 AM
    Richard Dimbleby; David Dimbleby
    Tony Benn; Hillary Benn
    Timothy West; Sam West

    It's not what you know, it's who you know.

    Patronage and nepotism are rife. If your father was an actor, a doctor, or a dustman, then you can be too.

    Equal opportunities are for black disabled lesbian mothers. The rest of us have to run with the pack.
    • Stevie Palimo
    • By Stevie Palimo 18th Oct 16, 9:05 AM
    • 2,860 Posts
    • 4,087 Thanks
    Stevie Palimo
    Richard Dimbleby; David Dimbleby
    Tony Benn; Hillary Benn
    Timothy West; Sam West

    It's not what you know, it's who you know.

    Patronage and nepotism are rife. If your father was an actor, a doctor, or a dustman, then you can be too.

    Equal opportunities are for black disabled lesbian mothers. The rest of us have to run with the pack.
    Originally posted by Nick_C
    Did you find this written on toilet roll as that is the only place it belongs, Complete nonsense if ever I heard it.
    " I refuse to censor myself because it may offend someone. If you don't like me that's ok, I don't need your approval. "
    • ThemeOne
    • By ThemeOne 18th Oct 16, 9:22 AM
    • 701 Posts
    • 541 Thanks
    ThemeOne
    Believe it or not, that is often what I hear people who have won tribunals say. And I don't just mean people who won "a little bit of money". Many times, I have heard them say that even if the same thing happened again, and they had a great claim, they simply wouldn't do it. Because it makes them feel worse for longer, and the money at the end wasn't worth it.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Yes I can believe it - it's a shame in a way as I think it leads to employers getting away with a lot they shouldn't, but you also hear it in relation to far more serious matters e.g. crimes of rape etc. The complainant really does go through the wringer, and it's a toss-up between not bringing a case thereby preserving your own sanity and peace of mind, or acting for the greater good (or at least a moral victory) and going through with it.

    In my case the promotion issue was the last straw in a poor relationship with the employer and I was ready to leave anyway, which I did shortly after getting the payout. I think it would have been even worse had I actually wanted to continue working there.
    • Helvetica Van Buren
    • By Helvetica Van Buren 18th Oct 16, 9:35 AM
    • 209 Posts
    • 293 Thanks
    Helvetica Van Buren
    It's not exactly ethical but it's definitely not discrimination: you weren't discriminated against - you just didn't get the job.
    • Nick_C
    • By Nick_C 18th Oct 16, 9:49 AM
    • 2,495 Posts
    • 3,294 Thanks
    Nick_C
    It's not exactly ethical but it's definitely not discrimination: you weren't discriminated against - you just didn't get the job.
    Originally posted by Helvetica Van Buren
    Well I would say he was discriminated against. But the discrimination was lawful.
    • ady19792
    • By ady19792 18th Oct 16, 9:56 AM
    • 13 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    ady19792
    At no point was I using the managers influeance to help me, if I wasnt accepted the for the job it would of been fine.
    It's the under hand tactics used, I was discriminated against as I wasn't given the questions that would be asked in interview before hand.
    • YouAsked
    • By YouAsked 18th Oct 16, 10:50 AM
    • 95 Posts
    • 105 Thanks
    YouAsked
    I approached their long serving manager who I have a good relationship with as we share a yard stating I was interested in their vacancy and how do I apply? He was very keen and told me he would love to have me working for them and gave me the details.
    I applied for the job and for a few weeks he was really chatty and saying hope you get the position. ..
    Originally posted by ady19792
    So you thought you had it in the bag but this manager pulls strings for someone else? Imagine if you'd got the job and someone else put a post up on here saying "I applied for a job but another colleague was matey with a long serving manager and had off the record chats about the job, with this manager saying he hoped my colleague got the job. He did get the job and I feel i t was favouritism and I wasn't given a fair chance" - you can't only be against favouritism when it doesn't work for you!
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 18th Oct 16, 10:51 AM
    • 4,870 Posts
    • 6,384 Thanks
    TBagpuss
    I don't think you have a discrimination case.

    You could if you wished raise the issue (anonymously if you feel it necessary) to query whether :

    - The manager disclosed to his employer his relationship with the candidate
    - The employers were made aware of his emails demanidng that his BIL was given the job and that interview questions were provided in advance
    - Whther there was any breach ofthe firm's policies
    - That the involvment of the manager in recruiting his brother in law over candidates who appeared to be more qualified resulted in a perception of unfairness and bias.

    It may well be that the firm is unaware of the family relationship between the two and I would assume that under normal cirumstnaces, the manager would have the final say on recruitment for his immediate staff, so the issue is probably whether underthe company's policies he ought to have disclosed hs relationshipo and stood back from the decision making process.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 18th Oct 16, 10:55 AM
    • 2,104 Posts
    • 1,784 Thanks
    Undervalued
    At no point was I using the managers influeance to help me, if I wasnt accepted the for the job it would of been fine.
    It's the under hand tactics used, I was discriminated against as I wasn't given the questions that would be asked in interview before hand.
    Originally posted by ady19792
    Maybe you were but nothing you have posted here suggests it was unlawful discrimination.

    The manager's conduct might have breached some of the firm's internal rules, policies or proceedures. If so you can make an internal complaint about that if you want to. It might get him into some trouble but where, if anywhere, it gets you is another matter.
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 18th Oct 16, 10:55 AM
    • 549 Posts
    • 477 Thanks
    steampowered
    There is no legal recourse here. As others have advised this is not discrimination within the narrow legal meaning of the word. It is actually perfectly legal to give someone an unfair advantage in a hiring process because they are related to you.

    However there may be a recourse through the train company's internal policies. As they are a large organisation they will probably have recruitment and hiring policies designed at ensuring the best person gets the job.

    If you feel that the recruitment process was unfair you have the option of putting in a grievance to HR, who may or may not decide to investigate.
    • SandC
    • By SandC 18th Oct 16, 11:39 AM
    • 3,731 Posts
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    SandC
    You could raise a grievance against the procedure used but it won't get you the job and it may open up a whole can of worms about all the snooping going on - the Manager who showed you these deleted emails should not have done so as well he knows!

    It really would be best to leave things lie. No it's not fair but as other posters have said, we've all been in work situations where we've seen others given preferential treatment over more deserving candidates, you have to move on and not dwell on it.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 18th Oct 16, 4:55 PM
    • 14,346 Posts
    • 36,518 Thanks
    FBaby
    Are you happy in your current job? You say this job is the same as you do now so not a promotion? How bothered are you?
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