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  • FIRST POST
    • chrisrawles
    • By chrisrawles 17th Oct 16, 6:02 PM
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    chrisrawles
    Paying back training costs
    • #1
    • 17th Oct 16, 6:02 PM
    Paying back training costs 17th Oct 16 at 6:02 PM
    All,

    My partner has just got a new job but this means she is leaving her current employment within 12 months of receiving training. She had to sign a training agreement that she would need to repay back training costs if she left within 12 months of completing the training.

    Her employer wants her to pay £1000 a month for 3 months until this is repaid. She has said she can not afford this due to mortgage payments. There is no payment terms on the agreement and no timescale. She has offered to pay £20 a month (although this might be taking the biscuit) but its still an offer of repayment in line with the agreement.

    She has been threatened with being deducted £1000 from her next pay although she has not authorised this.

    1. Can her employer take this amount of money
    2. Can they force her to pay pack within a certain timeframe although there is nothing in the agreement


    Any help would be welcomed
Page 1
    • Grumpygit
    • By Grumpygit 17th Oct 16, 6:39 PM
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    Grumpygit
    • #2
    • 17th Oct 16, 6:39 PM
    • #2
    • 17th Oct 16, 6:39 PM
    But she signed the contract which stated that she would have to repay if she left so she should repay.

    Whilst I can't comment on the legal side of things in respect of her contract, was it the sort of training that would help her in this new job and has she approached her new employers to see if they would repay the costs?

    This type of thing is quite common.....someone who worked with me left and also had to repay study costs - not just what we had paid out for her but also what we had reimbursed to her previous employer. The amount was circa £11k and we did have the power to deduct from her final salary if the amount wasn't repaid by the time she left. Her new employer's policy was to only repay study costs following completion of probation so she was between a rock and a hard place in that in theory, she would have had to take out a short term loan to repay us. Her new employer did settle the costs with us but I know that they weren't happy about it.

    Whilst there may not be a specific time period within the study contract, it's usually understood that it would be by the time you had left their employ.

    Is there a specific reason for her leaving so soon after the training?
    • elsien
    • By elsien 17th Oct 16, 6:46 PM
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    elsien
    • #3
    • 17th Oct 16, 6:46 PM
    • #3
    • 17th Oct 16, 6:46 PM
    Did the training agreement she signed give the right to deduct costs from her final salary payment?
    If she wants to resolve it she might want to consider making a sensible offer as £20 a month if she owes 3 grand is taking the proverbial and is bound to rile the employer.
    Is that the full amount or is it on a sliding scale according to how soon after the training she leaves?
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • chrisrawles
    • By chrisrawles 17th Oct 16, 6:47 PM
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    chrisrawles
    • #4
    • 17th Oct 16, 6:47 PM
    • #4
    • 17th Oct 16, 6:47 PM
    Bit more on the background. It was suggested that she did the 2yr college course to assist with her job role which included teaching mature students 1 evening a week. (She was already a qualified teacher but it was suggested to her anyway) She did it and one year in to the course there was a huge restructure which meant she was no longer required t teach and therefore the course was pointless. She completed it anyway so not to breach the agreement. Things are still very unsettled at her work and she along with a few others have since found new work. Her new job does not require this qualification she gained but thats not the point here.

    As I said she/we have no problem repaying the amount but it would need to be affordable to her/us as we are not in a position to suddenly pay back 3k just like that. So we are not trying to get out of paying but just make small affordable payments.
    • chrisrawles
    • By chrisrawles 17th Oct 16, 6:52 PM
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    chrisrawles
    • #5
    • 17th Oct 16, 6:52 PM
    • #5
    • 17th Oct 16, 6:52 PM
    Deduction from her salary is in the agreement but only if "arrangement of repayment is not arranged by time of leaving employment"

    No sliding scale is mentioned. Its a pretty wooly agreement for the amount of money in my eyes,

    So we are at the stage of negotiating repayments but no way can she/we afford £1000 a month as they have requested.
    • takman
    • By takman 17th Oct 16, 8:26 PM
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    takman
    • #6
    • 17th Oct 16, 8:26 PM
    • #6
    • 17th Oct 16, 8:26 PM
    It's pretty silly to not consider this when she started looking for a new job.

    Why didn't she just wait until the 12 months was up if this is something she can't afford to pay back in a reasonable amount of time.

    I think she should offer to pay them £250 which will pay them back in a year so they may be convinced to accept.

    I assume she must be getting paid a good amount more to be tempted to leave in the 12 months she knew she would have to pay back £3000?.
    • C.M.
    • By C.M. 17th Oct 16, 8:28 PM
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    C.M.
    • #7
    • 17th Oct 16, 8:28 PM
    • #7
    • 17th Oct 16, 8:28 PM
    Legally (I work in HR and I'm very familiar with these arrangements) her employer is permitted to deduct money from her final salary, but the deduction must not leave her with less than the equivalent of minimum wage for the hours worked

    So if she is above 25, the minimum she can be paid is her contracted hours x 7.20.

    If she signed the training agreement then she has already authorised this deduction

    I would suggest that she puts her proposed payment arrangement in writing, stating that any more would leave her in financial distress.

    However, if the offer is too small then her employer can and very well might deduct the maximum allowable from her final salary and then pursue her for the rest.
    • chrisrawles
    • By chrisrawles 18th Oct 16, 2:09 PM
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    chrisrawles
    • #8
    • 18th Oct 16, 2:09 PM
    • #8
    • 18th Oct 16, 2:09 PM
    First off she is not happy in her job and an opportunity came up to move out of education and move in to a very large company with great benefits. No one should be unhappy in their job as we spend so much of out time at work so I disagree with saying she is silly.

    All communication so far has been via email.

    Like i have said above she/we are not refusing to repay but the monthly payments will need to be reasonable so bills can still be paid. How can someone be expected to pay £1000 a month just like that!

    We are open to discussion with them to talk it out but there is no willing from their side.
    • EssexHebridean
    • By EssexHebridean 18th Oct 16, 2:41 PM
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    EssexHebridean
    • #9
    • 18th Oct 16, 2:41 PM
    • #9
    • 18th Oct 16, 2:41 PM
    First off she is not happy in her job and an opportunity came up to move out of education and move in to a very large company with great benefits. No one should be unhappy in their job as we spend so much of out time at work so I disagree with saying she is silly.

    All communication so far has been via email.

    Like i have said above she/we are not refusing to repay but the monthly payments will need to be reasonable so bills can still be paid. How can someone be expected to pay £1000 a month just like that!

    We are open to discussion with them to talk it out but there is no willing from their side.
    Originally posted by chrisrawles
    From what you've said, it seems as though her contract made it fairly clear that they would expect it paid back before she leaves though? You said

    Deduction from her salary is in the agreement but only if "arrangement of repayment is not arranged by time of leaving employment"
    There's no mention of there being an option to pay back in instalments there - and you seem to suggest there's not one elsewhere, either? It may be worth her making a sensible offer but by "sensible" I'm thinking more like £500 a month - it probably wasn't the smartest move to offer £20 a month, to be quite honest as it just looks like she is being flippant about it now.
    MORTGAGE FREE 30/09/2016
    • abby1234519
    • By abby1234519 18th Oct 16, 2:55 PM
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    abby1234519
    As an employee who has also received training I wouldn't consider leaving my job until the training period part had ceased. Although for me it is 2 years. And another 2 years if I take more training next year (which I will)

    Even if I was unhappy. Purely because I would have received the training in good faith etc.

    I understand your partner's situation though and can empathise.

    I would suggest that £20 would be seen as a bit of an insult, given how long it would take to pay back maybe they think she doesn't intend to? Can you pay £250 a month?
    Money money money.

    Debt
    Dec 2016: £25158.71

    December pay off target: £0/£887.71

    Budgeted spends (car maintenance, phone contracts, food, clothing etc) for £2017: £11,100

    Spend 10% less goal is £9990.

    Must underspend by £92.50 a month
    • Sanctioned Parts List
    • By Sanctioned Parts List 18th Oct 16, 3:44 PM
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    Sanctioned Parts List
    There's no mention of there being an option to pay back in instalments there - and you seem to suggest there's not one elsewhere, either? It may be worth her making a sensible offer but by "sensible" I'm thinking more like £500 a month - it probably wasn't the smartest move to offer £20 a month, to be quite honest as it just looks like she is being flippant about it now.
    Originally posted by EssexHebridean
    This happens a lot in my industry.

    As a general rule, for my rotten bunch, the next company won't take on the previous company's training loan automatically - you have to negotiate it as part of your deal. In terms of arrangements to pay, again for my industry, most companies will consider 6 months, or until the end of their accounting year, whichever is sooner.

    But to echo others here - bit late for you, but in future, don't quit before the training period is up, or if you do, make picking up the tab a condition of employment at the next place before you accept their offer.

    Greetings from Korea, by the way.

    • Bedsit Bob
    • By Bedsit Bob 18th Oct 16, 4:25 PM
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    Bedsit Bob
    She has been threatened with being deducted £1000 from her next pay although she has not authorised this.
    Originally posted by chrisrawles
    If she's no longer working for them, they're not paying her, so how can they deduct money from her next pay
    My job is Top Secret. Even I don't know what I'm doing.

    Amount I have so far denied the BBC - £1015-50
    • Sanctioned Parts List
    • By Sanctioned Parts List 18th Oct 16, 4:32 PM
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    Sanctioned Parts List
    I'd guess she's still working her notice period...?

    • chrisrawles
    • By chrisrawles 18th Oct 16, 6:11 PM
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    chrisrawles
    I think we will just see what HR come back with and play it from there. Its a cloud hanging over her and I want her to move on and enjoy her new job. Might have to lump it and pay up I guess
    • prowla
    • By prowla 18th Oct 16, 6:33 PM
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    prowla
    I arranged training under my current employer and then they gave me a form to sign saying I'd pay it back if I left within a certain time; there was no way I was signing over a month's pay, so I cancelled the course.

    It belittled the employer in my eyes.
    • takman
    • By takman 18th Oct 16, 6:37 PM
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    takman
    First off she is not happy in her job and an opportunity came up to move out of education and move in to a very large company with great benefits. No one should be unhappy in their job as we spend so much of out time at work so I disagree with saying she is silly.

    All communication so far has been via email.

    Like i have said above she/we are not refusing to repay but the monthly payments will need to be reasonable so bills can still be paid. How can someone be expected to pay £1000 a month just like that!

    We are open to discussion with them to talk it out but there is no willing from their side.
    Originally posted by chrisrawles
    Im not saying she is silly because she is moving jobs, she is silly not to consider the £3000 before she got a new job.
    She has already been working there for years so if she is that unhappy she shouldn't have agreed to paying back the training costs if she left.
    Personally if I didn't have enough money to pay them back in a reasonable time I would have just stayed on until the 12 months was up and then looked to get a different job.
    • chrisrawles
    • By chrisrawles 24th Oct 16, 4:00 PM
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    chrisrawles
    Regarding the payment the employer wishes to deduct if they took the £844 which they initially said, this would bring my partners pay under the minimum wage. Unless i have misunderstood:

    36hr @ £7.20 = £259.20 x 4 = £1036.80

    Lets say she brings home £1500

    Am i right in thinking that the maximum her employer can take as a deduction for training is £463.20?

    Apologies if i'm being thick but just trying to get my head around what they can and can't take should it come to that.

    Thanks
    • takman
    • By takman 24th Oct 16, 4:16 PM
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    takman
    Regarding the payment the employer wishes to deduct if they took the £844 which they initially said, this would bring my partners pay under the minimum wage. Unless i have misunderstood:

    36hr @ £7.20 = £259.20 x 4 = £1036.80

    Lets say she brings home £1500

    Am i right in thinking that the maximum her employer can take as a deduction for training is £463.20?

    Apologies if i'm being thick but just trying to get my head around what they can and can't take should it come to that.

    Thanks
    Originally posted by chrisrawles
    That's correct if she is paid every four weeks. If she is paid each calendar month then there is four and a third weeks per pay period.
    • chrisrawles
    • By chrisrawles 24th Oct 16, 4:21 PM
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    chrisrawles
    Thanks for clarifying.

    Just wondering if they did take some payments from her salary, how likely are they to chase her for the rest once she leaves? If they took a legal stance then that would cost them money. i'm also pretty sure with her current financial commitments that a court would agree that anything more than £100 month payment would leave her short of money.

    On another note could this failure to clear the training cost have an affect of her credit file although its not a credit agreement?
    • La escocesa
    • By La escocesa 24th Oct 16, 4:28 PM
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    La escocesa
    I had a similar agreement with my first employer. I know some people who left and had loads taken from their last pay but then nothing after that. Don't think it showed up on their credit file - think that was the end of it.

    (Not saying that will be true of all employers before anyone thinks I am advising the wrong thing... Just saying what happened where I worked...)
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