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  • FIRST POST
    • worriedbudgeter
    • By worriedbudgeter 15th Oct 16, 5:00 PM
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    worriedbudgeter
    I Disputed a debit card transaction and I've been told I've lost the dispute
    • #1
    • 15th Oct 16, 5:00 PM
    I Disputed a debit card transaction and I've been told I've lost the dispute 15th Oct 16 at 5:00 PM
    Hi everyone, first of all, I'm new here. I've got nowhere else to turn and I appreciate any advice you all may have for me.

    So this started on holiday. I used a bank machine (ATM) that was not situated outside a bank. I requested a withdrawal of 300 Euros. I never received any of it. I felt physically sick, from absolute worry. I immediately got in touch with my bank back home (Bank Of Scotland) and told them the scenario, they said they were unable to help until the payment has passed the 'pending' stage, but they would lodge a reference number for a dispute for cash not received, which I received. I then phoned the bank in question, they stated that if there was an error, the system would automatically refund the debited amount after 2-3 days.

    This was 4 days before I was due to fly home. Luckily I have great family who loaned me the money which I'd lost after a tearful phonecall back home. I agreed to pay them back using the money I would get from my next payday a week after I got home. So a day later, the payment has passed the 'pending' stage and is taken from my account, I immediately get on the phone and open the dispute with my bank. Everything is fine, after 40 minutes on the phone the dispute is lodged and I will hear back in 5 days.

    5 Days passed and lo-and-behold there is the money! refunded by my bank! I paid my mother back using the money I got refunded, with a smile. Success...? No. Today I returned home after 10 days away with relatives, to a letter explaining that the money will be re-debited from my account in the next ten days. The bank abroad sent back a log, saying the machine balanced at the end of that day and my dispute was unsuccessful. I can't put into words how upset I am. I have three witnesses that the money never came from the ATM.
    But to further the anger, my bank had already given me the money, even though it was not successful? is this normal? Anyways, the date they set (10 days from the letter) has passed and there's no movement in my bank account. I get paid this weekend and I'm worried I will have no money if the bank decide to take the money.

    My questions are;
    What rights do I have here? What can I do?
    My bank hasn't taken the money back within the timeframe they specified, can this work in my favour? I'm sorry if this is coming across desperate, but I am! The money was not received in the first place! This is a whole weeks wage, I will have nothing left! I am at my wits end, I'm struggling to cope with the stress this is creating. I need to feed my kids and keep the electricity on, I won't have anything if they decide to take the money. Any advice is truly appreciated.

    Thanks for reading.
    Last edited by worriedbudgeter; 15-10-2016 at 5:18 PM. Reason: title needed clarification
Page 1
    • GingerFurball
    • By GingerFurball 15th Oct 16, 6:50 PM
    • 787 Posts
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    GingerFurball
    • #2
    • 15th Oct 16, 6:50 PM
    • #2
    • 15th Oct 16, 6:50 PM
    Yes. Normally if you dispute transactions your bank will refund you because a dispute can sometimes take weeks to resolve. This is on the understanding that if the dispute is defended then the bank will take its refund back.

    As the bank who operate the ATM have submitted evidence that you were given the cash, your bank is taking back money that you were never entitled to.

    edit: that sounds harsher than it was meant to but that's essentially how it looks from the bank's point of view.

    Having said that, foreign ATM disputes aren't covered by PSR so I'm a little surprised that you were provided with a refund.
    Last edited by GingerFurball; 15-10-2016 at 6:54 PM. Reason: T
    DEBT FREE!

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    • jonesMUFCforever
    • By jonesMUFCforever 15th Oct 16, 10:00 PM
    • 23,192 Posts
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    jonesMUFCforever
    • #3
    • 15th Oct 16, 10:00 PM
    • #3
    • 15th Oct 16, 10:00 PM
    If you have not yet done this escalate this by making a formal complaint.
    You need to claim financial difficulty or they will take it as specified.
    They may relent because if it goes before the ombudsman it will cost them £550 - so cheaper to settle with you.
    What goes around - comes around
    give lots and you will always receive lots
    • worriedbudgeter
    • By worriedbudgeter 16th Oct 16, 12:49 AM
    • 4 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    worriedbudgeter
    • #4
    • 16th Oct 16, 12:49 AM
    • #4
    • 16th Oct 16, 12:49 AM
    Do I make a formal complaint to my bank? I honestly can't believe this is happening, how could the machine have balanced? I made a withdrawal of 20 euros afterwards just incase it would spit out the money I never got the first time around and I got that fine.
    • Ben8282
    • By Ben8282 16th Oct 16, 2:26 AM
    • 1,338 Posts
    • 501 Thanks
    Ben8282
    • #5
    • 16th Oct 16, 2:26 AM
    • #5
    • 16th Oct 16, 2:26 AM
    Do I make a formal complaint to my bank? I honestly can't believe this is happening, how could the machine have balanced? I made a withdrawal of 20 euros afterwards just incase it would spit out the money I never got the first time around and I got that fine.
    Originally posted by worriedbudgeter

    You mean that after attempting to withdraw the Euro300, you actually put the card back into the same ATM to make a second withdrawal? This was surely a rather foolish thing to do. By doing this you have shown that the ATM was working correctly immediately after the failed withdrawal attempt.


    Your OP is heavy on the feeling physically sick and tearful phone calls bit but rather lacking in actual detail as to what actually happened at the ATM. Obviously your card was returned. At what point did things start to go wrong? Did you get a receipt? Were you offered DCC during the transaction? Can you describe the actual transaction attempt in detail.


    Another very important bit of information missing from your OP is the length of time which elapsed between your bank re-crediting your account and them sending the letter saying that they were going to re-debit the account. Please can you clarify this. You say you received the letter after a 10 day absence from home staying with relatives but you don't say how long after you returned from your foreign holiday this actually was.


    So far your bank appears to have acted correctly. It is not their ATM. They can only go by the information received from the bank which operates the ATM. Presumably there are some checks or agreements in place to require the banks to tell the truth to each other in such cases (I hope).


    I suggest you go back to your bank and tell them that the foreign bank has provided them with false information. Can you tell us the name of the bank in question? Tell your bank that you have three witnesses as to what happened. I assume all 3 of these individuals were all standing sufficiently close to have fully and correctly witnessed everything that occurred and there is no possibility that you could have got the money and misled the witnesses yourself. I also assume all 3 witnesses would be available to testify in court, are credible and of good character. Try to get the bank to re-open their investigation into this matter.
    • PeacefulWaters
    • By PeacefulWaters 16th Oct 16, 9:38 AM
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    PeacefulWaters
    • #6
    • 16th Oct 16, 9:38 AM
    • #6
    • 16th Oct 16, 9:38 AM
    Id recommend cutting out the emotion and sticking to facts.

    Your bank has a complaints process which you should now use before escalating to the ombudsman.

    "The machine made a strange clunking noise" is far better supporting information than "I cried and felt ill".
    • colsten
    • By colsten 16th Oct 16, 10:25 AM
    • 8,143 Posts
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    colsten
    • #7
    • 16th Oct 16, 10:25 AM
    • #7
    • 16th Oct 16, 10:25 AM
    I assume all 3 of these individuals were all standing sufficiently close to have fully and correctly witnessed everything that occurred and there is no possibility that you could have got the money and misled the witnesses yourself. I also assume all 3 witnesses would be available to testify in court, are credible and of good character.
    Originally posted by Ben8282
    Hmh. Did one of the 3 grab the €300 whilst the other 2 momentarily distracted the OP?
    Last edited by colsten; 16-10-2016 at 1:17 PM.
    • dggar
    • By dggar 16th Oct 16, 10:52 AM
    • 471 Posts
    • 229 Thanks
    dggar
    • #8
    • 16th Oct 16, 10:52 AM
    • #8
    • 16th Oct 16, 10:52 AM
    I would have thought that 300 euro is the limit for a daily withdrawal from an overseas ATM.
    I'm surprised that a further withdrawal of 20 euro was allowed.
    • PeacefulWaters
    • By PeacefulWaters 16th Oct 16, 10:57 AM
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    PeacefulWaters
    • #9
    • 16th Oct 16, 10:57 AM
    • #9
    • 16th Oct 16, 10:57 AM
    I would have thought that 300 euro is the limit for a daily withdrawal from an overseas ATM.
    I'm surprised that a further withdrawal of 20 euro was allowed.
    Originally posted by dggar
    My cards allow me more, so I reckon you're guessing.
    • GingerFurball
    • By GingerFurball 16th Oct 16, 10:59 AM
    • 787 Posts
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    GingerFurball
    I would have thought that 300 euro is the limit for a daily withdrawal from an overseas ATM.
    I'm surprised that a further withdrawal of 20 euro was allowed.
    Originally posted by dggar
    My ATM limit is £500 or local currency equivalent.
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    • pinkdalek
    • By pinkdalek 16th Oct 16, 11:09 AM
    • 1,176 Posts
    • 666 Thanks
    pinkdalek
    I would have thought that 300 euro is the limit for a daily withdrawal from an overseas ATM.
    I'm surprised that a further withdrawal of 20 euro was allowed.
    Originally posted by dggar
    My ATM limit is £500 and the equivalent of this if using overseas. Maybe you should find a proper bank and BOS daily withdrawal limit on current a/c is £500

    As for the OP, you need to register a complaint with your bank if you are still not happy (which quite clearly you are not) and take it further.

    After all what harm can it do? If you know you have done nothing wrong and are genuine you know in your own mind you are doing nothing wrong.

    State facts, but you need also to mention what happened as a consequence and the worry it caused you.

    If you don't complain then scenarios like this will just be brushed under the carpet, the more complaints that are received will then impel banks and the authorities to do more to protect their customers.
    • warby68
    • By warby68 16th Oct 16, 11:16 AM
    • 606 Posts
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    warby68
    OP, I try and be open-minded but your story is ringing my alarm bells.

    The emphasis on your feelings, the three 'witnesses', being able to draw a full week's wage whilst on holiday but having financial hardship thereafter and especially the second successful withdrawal all unfortunately make it seem a little suspect. I'm sorry but that's what my gut reaction was.

    I do know however that sometimes truth is stranger than fiction so if it IS all true, formalise your complaint, but strictly using the facts this time and provide any evidence you have that supports those facts - the log of your immediate flurry of calls to get help etc, the names and addresses of your witnesses, evidence of the family loans that helped you out and the specifics of the withdrawal that went wrong.
    • robatwork
    • By robatwork 16th Oct 16, 11:42 AM
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    robatwork
    OP let's say just for the sake of argument you and your 3 friends have decided to try a scam on your bank, by claiming you didn't receive the money.

    Look at it from your bank's angle - they have apparently received evidence from the foreign bank that the machine balanced. So if that's true they did the correct thing.

    However what actual evidence do you have? What do the 2 receipts actually say from the 2 withdrawals - the 1 phantom and the following real one?

    You really will need something a bit more concrete than your statement to back you up with the ombudsman. Who was the ATM run by - did you take pictures of it?

    Start with a formal complaint to your bank, then when deadlocked go to the ombudsman... but first answer the questions here and previously in the thread.

    I get the feeling it's another "scam" thread we'll never see the conclusion to.
    • veryintrigued
    • By veryintrigued 16th Oct 16, 11:45 AM
    • 1,677 Posts
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    veryintrigued
    Assume you took photos of the ATM / building in question seeing as you had quite a few days still left on holiday? And then provided this as evidence?

    We also had a scout about for if there were any cameras about and made a note of where they were too.

    That's what we did when using an ATM (in eastern Europe) that didn't spit any dosh out just in case.

    Why you'd risk withdrawing further amounts is anyones guess though.
    • worriedbudgeter
    • By worriedbudgeter 16th Oct 16, 1:24 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    worriedbudgeter
    Ok, so I go to sleep and wake up to a flurry of "scam" accusations. If you want the full story, with dates, I can give that.

    22/09/2016 - I go to withdraw 300 euros from my bank, at this point I have been on holiday for 9 days, all inclusive, this is my tenth day and we have decided to use my money I've saved throughout the holiday (because, you know, people actually can save money they intend to use for a further date, we've known about the holiday for 7 months after all) and treat my kids to some go karting and a trip to a theme park before we go home. I get an option on screen for Direct currency conversion, I choose the option to give the transaction in Euros instead of GBP. It asks me if I want a receipt with the transaction, I choose yes. This is at an ATM in the town, the bank is "Banca March".

    The ATM is taking some time, It returns my card first, Then surprisingly I get my receipt second. Then the draw opens and is supposed to be holding 300 euros, it isnt. I bend down to look and see if they are stuck in the machine, they aren't. The screen reads "Please Wait" The draw opens again, theres a loud whirring noise and I do the same thing, by this point I'm panicking, a message flashes up on the screen, too fast to read, then the machine returns to the "Please insert card screen". My grandfather, fiancee, kids and myself are distraught. The kids wont be doing what we've spent the day preparing for. I make sure no one else uses the machine whilst I phone my bank - I spend 10 minutes on hold and then I go through the process of what was said earlier about lodging a dispute. This takes roughly 10 minutes.

    After the phonecall, I go on google maps (I have free data abroad on 3 network) and find a number for Banca March, I call them and explain what has happened, this takes roughly 5 minutes. The person on the end of phone assures me its common and says to get it touch with my bank but it should be automatically refunded within 2-3 days. I'm feeling a bit better now.
    By this time, I have nothing to lose. I wonder if it will spit my money out, if somehow it may have got jammed in the machine. Being that no one else has used the machine, I figure I will use my overdraft and withdraw 20 euros, because that is the lowest note it will dispense. I have nothing left to lose, I'll need a taxi back to the apartment anyways. That withdrawal is successful. I'm perplexed. We return back in the taxi.

    23/09/2016 - My bank statement online shows that the withdrawal of 300 euros has been debited and has passed the pending stage. I proceed to call my bank and organise the dispute as fast as I can. It takes about 40 minutes as the lady is confused by the change in amounts that was previously stated (it was originally £258.94 but is now £258.33 due to currency rates changing) eventually we get there. After the call, my mother phones and offers to loan me the money. I agree. holiday proceeds as normal, I have happy children again.

    I arrive home on the 27th in the early hours. When I wake I check my bank balance - success, you have been refunded the money. I pay my mother back. Everything is normal in my life.

    On the 5th October my family and I go to visit relatives across the country, were staying for 10 days. We return home yesterday and I find a letter dated the 4th October that states the bank is re-debiting my account and provides a log of banca march's ATM records. How many people have missed a letter because they have other things going on in their life? Does this make me a liar? Or this a scam?

    Sorry if I seem a bit angry or annoyed, I can understand that this may ring alarm bells since there seems to be scam posts going around, but this has caught me off guard. Being accused of being a liar is a pretty crap feeling.

    At the time, I never approached the ATM with the thought of "this is going to steal my money, better take photos". It's all good in hindsight, but I had two kids who were crying and generally making quite the scene about this while my partner tried her best to calm them down, an 80 year old grandfather who was needing somewhere to sit down and a lady in my ear telling me there was nothing she could do until the payment had passed a certain stage. I was stressed and upset, heaven forbid it happen to anyone who is not expecting something like this to happen and actually forget to take photos of the bloody machine. I never returned to it, but strangely enough, when I went to the ATM nearer the bus stop after my mother loaned me money, I took a video! Because, you know, I expected it after a terrible experience previously!

    I will get in touch with a local bar that was close to the ATM in hopes that they have CCTV outside. There is also a restaurant I will try. I will escalate this to a complaint with my bank. Thanks for the genuine advice from people who answered.
    • Jlawson118
    • By Jlawson118 16th Oct 16, 3:27 PM
    • 380 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    Jlawson118
    Hi everyone, first of all, I'm new here. I've got nowhere else to turn and I appreciate any advice you all may have for me.

    So this started on holiday. I used a bank machine (ATM) that was not situated outside a bank. I requested a withdrawal of 300 Euros. I never received any of it. I felt physically sick, from absolute worry. I immediately got in touch with my bank back home (Bank Of Scotland) and told them the scenario, they said they were unable to help until the payment has passed the 'pending' stage, but they would lodge a reference number for a dispute for cash not received, which I received. I then phoned the bank in question, they stated that if there was an error, the system would automatically refund the debited amount after 2-3 days.

    This was 4 days before I was due to fly home. Luckily I have great family who loaned me the money which I'd lost after a tearful phonecall back home. I agreed to pay them back using the money I would get from my next payday a week after I got home. So a day later, the payment has passed the 'pending' stage and is taken from my account, I immediately get on the phone and open the dispute with my bank. Everything is fine, after 40 minutes on the phone the dispute is lodged and I will hear back in 5 days.

    5 Days passed and lo-and-behold there is the money! refunded by my bank! I paid my mother back using the money I got refunded, with a smile. Success...? No. Today I returned home after 10 days away with relatives, to a letter explaining that the money will be re-debited from my account in the next ten days. The bank abroad sent back a log, saying the machine balanced at the end of that day and my dispute was unsuccessful. I can't put into words how upset I am. I have three witnesses that the money never came from the ATM.
    But to further the anger, my bank had already given me the money, even though it was not successful? is this normal? Anyways, the date they set (10 days from the letter) has passed and there's no movement in my bank account. I get paid this weekend and I'm worried I will have no money if the bank decide to take the money.

    My questions are;
    What rights do I have here? What can I do?
    My bank hasn't taken the money back within the timeframe they specified, can this work in my favour? I'm sorry if this is coming across desperate, but I am! The money was not received in the first place! This is a whole weeks wage, I will have nothing left! I am at my wits end, I'm struggling to cope with the stress this is creating. I need to feed my kids and keep the electricity on, I won't have anything if they decide to take the money. Any advice is truly appreciated.

    Thanks for reading.
    Originally posted by worriedbudgeter
    It sounds like the main issue here is the fact that this was a foreign transaction and it was also cash.., although no matter where, or what the circumstances are, banks are forever trying to fight their way out of paying customers back.

    I don't know if this will work but I will tell you my experience with First Direct. I had nearly £1500 worth of money gambled away on a website I did use once every so often, but most of it went through PayPal. PayPal argued that these payments had come from myself, First Direct also refused to give me the money back, arguing that they were me and weren't fraudulent.

    I also had that sickening feeling you're experiencing. It's awful. But I sent an email of complaint, and a lady got back to me saying she would put the money back in my account and issue a chargeback to PayPal and the gambling website, and if they could prove that these weren't fraudulent, then they'd take the money back. Well they didn't take it back.

    Complain to your bank and see if you get anywhere. Normally the minute you complain, then they're on the phone to you trying to compensate you. Lloyds and Halifax are part of RBS, and every time I've complained to them, they've been on the phone the next day paying me out for the damage they've caused
    • YorkshireBoy
    • By YorkshireBoy 16th Oct 16, 3:33 PM
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    YorkshireBoy
    Lloyds and Halifax are part of RBS
    Originally posted by Jlawson118
    Really? When did that happen?
    • lozzy81
    • By lozzy81 16th Oct 16, 3:44 PM
    • 187 Posts
    • 600 Thanks
    lozzy81

    Complain to your bank and see if you get anywhere. Normally the minute you complain, then they're on the phone to you trying to compensate you. Lloyds and Halifax are part of RBS, and every time I've complained to them, they've been on the phone the next day paying me out for the damage they've caused
    Originally posted by Jlawson118
    Lloyds and Halfiax are not part of RBS, I don't know if Lloyds is still with the hbos group?

    A complaint to the bank is the best place to start with the facts laid out as above, banks hate complaints!
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    • meer53
    • By meer53 16th Oct 16, 6:21 PM
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    meer53
    What is the point of taking a photo of the ATM ? The only option now is to make a complaint.
    • dggar
    • By dggar 16th Oct 16, 6:28 PM
    • 471 Posts
    • 229 Thanks
    dggar
    My ATM limit is £500 and the equivalent of this if using overseas. Maybe you should find a proper bank and BOS daily withdrawal limit on current a/c is £500

    .
    Originally posted by pinkdalek

    I find a daily limit of £300 is perfectly adequate for my needs, but thanks for your concern.
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