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  • FIRST POST
    • Fatal Swan
    • By Fatal Swan 15th Oct 16, 7:56 AM
    • 255Posts
    • 196Thanks
    Fatal Swan
    Query about Britannia Notice to Keeper (grounds for appeal?)
    • #1
    • 15th Oct 16, 7:56 AM
    Query about Britannia Notice to Keeper (grounds for appeal?) 15th Oct 16 at 7:56 AM
    I've just received 'Parking Charge Notice' from Britannia through the post (no windscreen ticket) and am deciding on the best way to dispense with it, having read around the forums as much as I'm able to. I posted on another thread but was advised to post my own, I hope this is ok. I understand that Britannia aren't typically aggressive in chasing up these charges though I'd prefer to have the situation resolved if possible and not have it returning at some point over the next 6 years!

    Among what I've read so far have been a couple of recent (2016) posts where appeal has been successful at the POPLA stage due to the company not having successfully identified the driver of the vehicle and failing to notify the registered keeper of the regulations in a manner compliant with section 9 of PoFA 2012 (see quote below and in the judgments in these threads):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=70394898 - post 54 for the relevant decision

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71361898 - post 2368 for the relevant decision

    Without going into any of the background of the reason for my penalty charge, given the POPLA decision reported in the first thread especially, I'd like to know if it is sensible for me to appeal - not having identified myself as the driver - principally based on the Notice to Keeper failing to be compliant with section 9 of PoFA 2012. The letter I've received from Britannia actually has no information at all about "if, after the period of 28 days... the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid." All the letter says is "if you were not the driver of the vehicle at the time, you should tell us the name and the current postal address of the driver and pass this notice on to them for payment".

    I could add some further grounds on the circumstances surrounding my penalty charge, but it seems from the two POPLA assessments in the threads I mentioned that this issue kind of trumps any other arguments, in any case.

    Any advice on whether this is a sensible basis for appeal would be much appreciated! Many thanks.
    Last edited by Fatal Swan; 15-10-2016 at 10:08 AM.
Page 1
    • Autolycus2000
    • By Autolycus2000 15th Oct 16, 9:51 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    Autolycus2000
    • #2
    • 15th Oct 16, 9:51 AM
    • #2
    • 15th Oct 16, 9:51 AM
    You need to re-post those two links. At the moment they point to individual posts rather than entire thread.

    Are you at POPLA stage yet? If not, then first step is to appeal to Britannia using the blue template in the NEWBIES thread so as they (almost certainly) reject it and give you a POPLA code.

    The initial appeal can be quite simple. The later one to POPLA should have as many points in it as possible - no doubt including the one you have talked about above.

    Others who know more than I do will hopefully be along soon.....
    • Fatal Swan
    • By Fatal Swan 15th Oct 16, 9:57 AM
    • 255 Posts
    • 196 Thanks
    Fatal Swan
    • #3
    • 15th Oct 16, 9:57 AM
    • #3
    • 15th Oct 16, 9:57 AM
    Thank you - just to confirm, I've taken no action at present. The idea was certainly that I would appeal to Britannia in the first instance (which I had assumed would likely be rejected) and then make the case I described in the subsequent POPLA.

    I was trying to just highlight the post on the threads with the POPLA decision details to save people trawling though the whole thread (which you can see if you click the link in the top right of the page), but one of the links was wrong - should be corrected now.
    Last edited by Fatal Swan; 15-10-2016 at 10:06 AM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Oct 16, 10:05 AM
    • 10,979 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 15th Oct 16, 10:05 AM
    • #4
    • 15th Oct 16, 10:05 AM
    If this is a Notice to Keeper (NtK) through the post, then use the blue text initial appeal from the newbies FAQ sticky. Send the appeal exactly as per the PPC's instructions, including adding your name and address. Get that off within the time limit set by the PPC (28 days normally).

    If it's a windscreen ticket then exactly as above other than you need to delay sending until around day 26 from the date of the parking event (if by electronic means) or around day 23 if by snail mail.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Fatal Swan
    • By Fatal Swan 24th Oct 16, 9:37 AM
    • 255 Posts
    • 196 Thanks
    Fatal Swan
    • #5
    • 24th Oct 16, 9:37 AM
    • #5
    • 24th Oct 16, 9:37 AM
    Quick update - the POPLA appeal was successful! Many thanks to board members on this and other threads I've read for their help. I appealed to POPLA on the grounds of inadequate signage (seemed a long shot, but I had to put something) and on the grounds that the NTK was not compliant with the regulations. POPLA quickly reported that the operator was not contesting the appeal so I won the case.

    In case it helps others, my full statement in the POPLA appeal was as follows:

    Please write a short summary of this ground of appeal

    This appeal (on the basis as registered keeper; the driver is not identified in either this appeal or in the operator's earlier appeal process) is based on two grounds.

    The first is the inadequate signage at the car park leading to an inevitable failure to notice in hours of darkness any parking regulations in an unlit car park noted on unlit signage.

    The second ground for appeal is that the operator has failed to comply with section 9 of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, for the reasons outlined below.


    Why do you perceive that the terms and conditions of the car park were not properly signed (for example where they blocked, too small, or not showing)?

    Unusually for car parks in the area, the parking charges apply during nighttime hours. In darkness, the provision of signage is wholly inadequate: the car park is unlit, as are any signs which may have indicated the parking charges that applied. As such I consider it inevitable that users of this car park are likely to be unaware of the parking regulations due to the failure to provide visible signage that can:

    i) be located in darkness in a large unlit car park (where any signage may be some distance away from where a vehicle parks), and
    ii) be reasonably considered to be adequately readable under such conditions, in the event the event that such signage can be located.


    Please explain your reasons for appealing against the parking ticket.

    It is my understanding that for an operator to transfer liability for unpaid parking charges from the driver of the vehicle to the registered keeper of the vehicle, the regulations laid out in the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012 must be adhered to. The Driver of the vehicle has not been identified (as confirmed in the operator’s rejection of my appeal, dated xxxxx 2016) and the Notice to Keeper fails to comply with section 9 of PoFA 2012 (no windscreen ticket was issued), specifically the following passage:

    “2) The notice must – f) warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given – (i) the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and (ii) the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;”
    The Notice to Keeper that was received (Parking Charge Number xxxxxxx, dated xxxxxxx 2016) omits such information. I have included in my POPLA submission the two pages of the notice which confirms that such text is absent. The only instruction in this regard is as follows:
    “Please be advised that the driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay the parking charge in full. As we do not know the drivers name or current address, and if you were not the driver of the vehicle at the time, you should tell us the name and current postal address of the driver and pass this notice to them for payment.”

    Evidently, the operator has withheld from me (as the registered keeper) the required details of my liabilities in the event that the driver is not identified. This might be an omission on the part of the operator or a deliberate attempt to mislead, but regardless, the Notice to Keeper fails to comply with PoFA 2012 (section 9).
    Last edited by Fatal Swan; 25-10-2016 at 9:54 AM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Oct 16, 10:21 AM
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    Umkomaas
    • #6
    • 24th Oct 16, 10:21 AM
    • #6
    • 24th Oct 16, 10:21 AM
    Nice one! But........

    I'm struggling to get my head around the timings here.

    On 15 October you were seeking advice and it seemed you hadn't at that stage even submitted an initial appeal to the PPC. Yet fast forward 9 days (six if you exclude Sun 16/10, Sat 22/10 and Sun 23/10)

    1. You've appealed to the PPC
    2. They've rejected it and sent you a POPLA code
    3. You've written your POPLA appeal
    4. You've sent in your POPLA appeal
    5. POPLA have received your appeal
    6. POPLA has forwarded your appeal to the PPC
    7. The PPC has received your appeal
    8. The PPC has read your appeal
    9. The PPC has responded to POPLA that they don't wish to contest
    10. POPLA has received their response
    11. POPLA has read the PPC response
    12. POPLA has written to confirm cancellation.

    Please tell us the secrets to miracle performance.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Fatal Swan
    • By Fatal Swan 24th Oct 16, 10:30 AM
    • 255 Posts
    • 196 Thanks
    Fatal Swan
    • #7
    • 24th Oct 16, 10:30 AM
    • #7
    • 24th Oct 16, 10:30 AM
    That's right! A quick check of my email records confirms the timings as follows:

    Sunday 16th October (10:30pm): submitted appeal to Britannia (thought I might as well get it done since it would likely be rejected out of hand anyway - it was! - and the sooner I could get my POPLA code).
    Tuesday 18th October (4pm): Britannia notify me by email that the appeal was not successful, with POPLA code provided.
    Tuesday 18th October (10pm): submitted my POPLA appeal (through the online system), as per the text above.
    Monday 24th October (9am): POPLA notify me by email that Britannia are not contesting the appeal

    So everything from point 4 to 12 (the start and end of the POPLA stage) happened between the night of the 18th October and morning of the 24th. I had been expecting it to take weeks, so no complaints here!

    I guess the key to a quick outcome here was a carefully worded appeal on very robust grounds that simply could not be contested by the operator: whether they notified me correctly in the NTK is literally a 'black and white' matter, and they didn't (it's another issue but seriously, Britannia Parking - if this is your entire business, how could you manage to get this wrong when just writing one sentence in a standard template would put it right??). In the POPLA submission I used phrasings that were as close as possible to those of the assessors in previous similar judgments that I'd read. I also submitted a scanned copy of both sides of the NTK in my POPLA appeal which makes it less easy for the operator to contest the wording, I suppose.
    Last edited by Fatal Swan; 24-10-2016 at 10:51 AM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Oct 16, 11:58 AM
    • 10,979 Posts
    • 16,384 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 24th Oct 16, 11:58 AM
    • #8
    • 24th Oct 16, 11:58 AM
    Brilliant (hat tip). The fastest start-to-finish case I've ever witnessed in almost 4 years of daily input to the forum.

    You were very well prepared and took control of the situation with just a touch of reassurance from regulars last week. So many lessons for so many who can't budge an inch without wanting detailed advice before any minor move they make.

    Kudos
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Oct 16, 1:42 PM
    • 40,460 Posts
    • 52,359 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 24th Oct 16, 1:42 PM
    • #9
    • 24th Oct 16, 1:42 PM
    seriously, Britannia Parking - if this is your entire business, how could you manage to get this wrong when just writing one sentence in a standard template would put it right??
    It's deliberate, they do not try to follow the POFA and nor do:

    CEL
    CP Plus
    Excel
    VCS
    TPS
    Highview
    Smart Parking

    ...to name but a few. One simple reason being that most victims will either pay up or they will appeal without research, babbling away about the fact they were driving and this is why they parked there. So most situations are not appealed like you did.

    PPCs do not need to comply with the POFA and as you found, when sussed by a registered keeper appellant in maybe 2 in 100 cases, they cancel. None of them care about the odd one they have to drop.

    The MAJOR reason behind it I think, is that most of these firms find it hard to serve NTKs within the 14 day deadline. So let's say maybe they know they will only achieve that in 50% of cases, they don't want the bother of having to do what ParkingEye do, which is to have two types of NTK, one for where they reckon they've met the deadline and one for late-served ones.

    Easier to have a simple NTK because if they routinely use one telling the keeper they are liable when they are not (due to late serving of the NTK) that can get them banned by the DVLA.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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