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  • FIRST POST
    • casper_g
    • By casper_g 14th Oct 16, 1:44 PM
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    casper_g
    Side extension layout ideas.
    • #1
    • 14th Oct 16, 1:44 PM
    Side extension layout ideas. 14th Oct 16 at 1:44 PM
    At present the ground floor of our house looks like this:

    It's a 1920s semi, attached on the right-hand side. On the left side of the house there's a driveway about 2.9m wide between the house and the boundary wall, then the neighbouring house is the same distance away on the other side of the wall.

    There's currently a pair of gates across the driveway (set back about 1.5m from the corner of the house) and the drive leads to a single garage beyond the back corner of the house. We never use the garage for a car, and make little use of the driveway area at the side of the house - there's ample parking at the front.

    We would like to build a single-storey side extension to provide:
    • A big sociable kitchen/dining room with room for some comfy seating;
    • A downstairs shower room;
    • A (small) utility area, just big enough for washing machine, dryer and a sink; and
    • An attached garage, which would really be used mostly for storing bikes and tools.

    The last of these is important as it would allow us to demolish the existing garage which would really open up the back garden.

    I came up with something like this:

    The area that I had the most trouble with was the utility/shower room as the width of the extension is constrained between the existing house and the boundary. Even as it is, the wall of the extension will need to be on the boundary.

    Any thoughts/ideas/criticism welcome!
Page 1
    • casper_g
    • By casper_g 15th Oct 16, 4:00 PM
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    casper_g
    • #2
    • 15th Oct 16, 4:00 PM
    • #2
    • 15th Oct 16, 4:00 PM
    Bumping to add - the boundary wall is in poor condition and would need rebuilding at some point, so we're hoping the neighbours will be agreeable to the idea of having our extension on the boundary in its place. We're on good terms with them at the moment....
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 15th Oct 16, 5:55 PM
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    Doozergirl
    • #3
    • 15th Oct 16, 5:55 PM
    • #3
    • 15th Oct 16, 5:55 PM
    I hope your planning authority are open to the idea of building on the boundary. Mine will not allow anything under a metre from the boundary for fear of potential 'terracing effect'.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • casper_g
    • By casper_g 15th Oct 16, 6:41 PM
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    casper_g
    • #4
    • 15th Oct 16, 6:41 PM
    • #4
    • 15th Oct 16, 6:41 PM
    I hope your planning authority are open to the idea of building on the boundary. Mine will not allow anything under a metre from the boundary for fear of potential 'terracing effect'.
    Originally posted by Doozergirl
    It did cross my mind this could be an issue. But as far as I can tell we can do this as permitted development as long as we limit the height. That way, the planners won't have the chance to object - or will they?

    In practice, I don't anticipate the neighbours wanting to build a similar extension on their side, as they have already extended at the back and into the roof, and make much more use than we do of the side driveway for their cars (their front garden is smaller).
    • phil24_7
    • By phil24_7 15th Oct 16, 10:49 PM
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    phil24_7
    • #5
    • 15th Oct 16, 10:49 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Oct 16, 10:49 PM
    My local authority allowed me to build on the boundary but made me step the front wall back 1m. This alters the roofline to avoid terracing.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 16th Oct 16, 9:52 AM
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    getmore4less
    • #6
    • 16th Oct 16, 9:52 AM
    • #6
    • 16th Oct 16, 9:52 AM
    A couple of things.

    If the garage/store will never have a car could make it smaller.

    Why not stick the bifolds in the new wall and leave the existing window/wall.

    that sofa in the new room seems a bit out of place and you have two other comfy rooms.

    what about making the understairs bigger(where the sofa is) to accommodate the shower and rearrange the utility to square off the kitchen.

    do you still need 2 doors into the family room you would get a long wall run if you got rid of the one in the kitchen

    Gut feeling is a utility/shower might be better opening onto the garden.


    One other issue is have you blocked off all access from the front to the back?
    • Kiran
    • By Kiran 16th Oct 16, 10:12 AM
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    Kiran
    • #7
    • 16th Oct 16, 10:12 AM
    • #7
    • 16th Oct 16, 10:12 AM
    Can I ask which software you did your drawings on? I use AutoCAD normally but I quite like the colour images with furniture which unfortunately takes quite a bit of time on civil/structural versions.

    Sorry to hijack your thread
    Some people don't exaggerate........... They just remember big!
    • casper_g
    • By casper_g 16th Oct 16, 10:46 PM
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    casper_g
    • #8
    • 16th Oct 16, 10:46 PM
    • #8
    • 16th Oct 16, 10:46 PM
    Lots of food for thought there, thanks!

    A couple of things.

    If the garage/store will never have a car could make it smaller.
    Good suggestion, thanks. We'll consider it. I always think it looks wrong when you see places with garage doors opening into little cupboards, but we only really care how it works for us as we aren't planning to sell.

    Why not stick the bifolds in the new wall and leave the existing window/wall.
    I suppose I liked the idea of the kitchen in the extension as it will give a sense of a big space when you come into the room, and thought maybe more of the preparatory work could be done in the new part before breaking through to the existing kitchen. Apart from the potential to save the cost of a new window, would putting the bifold in the new part be better?

    that sofa in the new room seems a bit out of place and you have two other comfy rooms.
    True. It's mostly there because we thought we ought to make some use of the space and couldn't think what! Plus the old chimney has a pretty fireplace to look at (it will never be used, as the stack has been removed).

    what about making the understairs bigger(where the sofa is) to accommodate the shower and rearrange the utility to square off the kitchen.
    Possibly. Response above is related.

    do you still need 2 doors into the family room you would get a long wall run if you got rid of the one in the kitchen
    One to think about, thanks.

    Gut feeling is a utility/shower might be better opening onto the garden.
    Hmm. They wouldn't make best use of the view of the garden, though!

    One other issue is have you blocked off all access from the front to the back?
    Yes indeed, this is a down side to the project.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    • ic
    • By ic 16th Oct 16, 11:21 PM
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    ic
    • #9
    • 16th Oct 16, 11:21 PM
    • #9
    • 16th Oct 16, 11:21 PM
    I'd agree with moving the sofa in the kitchen, and widening the shower/utility rooms - even if not all the way over so as not to create a narrow hallway running into the kitchen. If you did this, you'd have more wall space to move the doorway into the utility (perhaps even where the sofa is now) and then have a u-shaped kitchen run = more storage.

    If you build to the boundary, you probably won't be able to have a window to the side from the kitchen or shower room - you'd have to rely on velux windows overhead instead. I'm sure retaining a 2 foot access pathway would be worth it in the long run (and allow windows). Consider what would happen if you ever want to do work in the back garden (even just mowing the lawn!) - would you want to traipse everything through your new kitchen?

    You'll probably need a support column where the original rear corner of the kitchen is - which will eat a little into the worktop run and the width of the patio door opening. Perhaps however you could have goal-post supports instead.
    * my posts are made in good faith and only represent my own opinion, experience or understanding of a situation.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 17th Oct 16, 7:40 AM
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    getmore4less
    More ideas,

    if you want better access to the garden move the sink away from the exterior wall and have even bigger doors/full height windows for the dining and comfy seating

    no need for sinks under window these days more often they are used for food prep and not washing up anyway, you could move the dirty dish sink and dishwasher into the utility space.

    you could have 2 runs either side of the current utility door.
    the wall side full height masses of storage built appliances.

    move the sofa to the window/doors looking onto the garden and that gives the option to move the door to the utility.

    You could rethink the utility to be more than a laundry/shower room perhaps a second food prep area.


    If you are a wash/tumble type family and don't hang washing could you mover the laundry upstairs?
    • casper_g
    • By casper_g 17th Oct 16, 8:52 AM
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    casper_g
    Can I ask which software you did your drawings on? I use AutoCAD normally but I quite like the colour images with furniture which unfortunately takes quite a bit of time on civil/structural versions.

    Sorry to hijack your thread
    Originally posted by Kiran

    No problem. I did these on http://www.floorplanner.com/. Hope this helps!
    • martindow
    • By martindow 17th Oct 16, 10:23 AM
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    martindow
    I hope your planning authority are open to the idea of building on the boundary. Mine will not allow anything under a metre from the boundary for fear of potential 'terracing effect'.
    Originally posted by Doozergirl
    My council also refused on this basis even though half the buildings in the road had extensions closer than this.

    OP you need to look at your local authority's web site to see their planning guidelines and maybe have an informal talk with a planning officer to see how likely they would be to accept your scheme.
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 17th Oct 16, 10:30 AM
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    Doozergirl
    You'll probably need a support column where the original rear corner of the kitchen is - which will eat a little into the worktop run and the width of the patio door opening. Perhaps however you could have goal-post supports instead.
    Originally posted by ic
    Well spotted! There's no probably about it. The house won't stand up with this design. It will need to be quite substantial support on the corner as you have to prevent flex in the structure as well as simply supporting it. It needs to be in the shape of an L. Unless we have a lottery winning budget again.

    OP, where is the original corner of the house? Is it between dining room and kitchen? If so, what is above kitchen?
    Last edited by Doozergirl; 17-10-2016 at 10:39 AM.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • casper_g
    • By casper_g 17th Oct 16, 2:12 PM
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    casper_g
    OP, where is the original corner of the house? Is it between dining room and kitchen? If so, what is above kitchen?
    Originally posted by Doozergirl

    The protruding part of the house containing the kitchen is part of the original building, with a bedroom upstairs. The layout on the first floor is roughly as shown:

    All walls separating bedroom 3, the bathroom, the toilet and the landing are original timber studwork covered with lath and plaster. I believe the kitchen/dining room wall is probably the same but I'll double check.
    Last edited by casper_g; 17-10-2016 at 3:03 PM. Reason: Fixed windows/doors on floorplan
    • casper_g
    • By casper_g 20th Oct 16, 2:29 PM
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    casper_g
    Having checked, the wall between the kitchen and dining room does seem to be solid.

    I've been having a read ofApproved Document A to get a better idea of what we're up against (acknowledging the need for a professional advice on the final design, of course).

    I think we can modify the sizes and positions of the window and doors in the back wall so they comply with Diagram 14, so I guess this should help.

    We could also leave part of the original exterior wall in place near the corner of the original house to form a buttress of there at the end of the new worktop, if needed.

    What worries me mostly is the restriction in Diagram 14 that the width of openings shouldn't exceed 3m. What are the implications of exceeding this size, as obviously it can be done. 3m just wouldn't work, it needs to be about 4.5m if not 5m. I guess this is where some serious structural engineering input would be needed, and we might end up with a goalpost frame or something?
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 20th Oct 16, 3:02 PM
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    Doozergirl
    If you're going to the detail of structural loading then you need to consult the person doing your drawings.

    You just need to bear in mind that corners are really important structures where there is an upstairs and that you need to leave at least the 660mm from the outside edge of each existing corner wall to support.

    I find it really hard to work out the structure of the proposed plans without old and new right next to each other. There's not one measurement either, which makes it almost impossible to advise.
    Last edited by Doozergirl; 20-10-2016 at 3:11 PM.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • casper_g
    • By casper_g 21st Oct 16, 8:47 AM
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    casper_g
    If you're going to the detail of structural loading then you need to consult the person doing your drawings.
    Originally posted by Doozergirl
    I completely agree. We'll certainly do that, but at this stage we're only really thinking about concepts and feasibility (mostly in order to motivate ourselves to save up the money!).
    You just need to bear in mind that corners are really important structures where there is an upstairs and that you need to leave at least the 660mm from the outside edge of each existing corner wall to support.

    I find it really hard to work out the structure of the proposed plans without old and new right next to each other. There's not one measurement either, which makes it almost impossible to advise.
    Originally posted by Doozergirl
    I really appreciate your thoughts, so with that in mind here are the proposed and existing plans as in my original post, placed side by side:

    And here's the kitchen area tweaked to keep a 660mm return at each corner (new and existing), with some dimensions:
    Last edited by casper_g; 21-10-2016 at 8:52 AM.
    • ellie27
    • By ellie27 21st Oct 16, 9:15 AM
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    ellie27
    You have a small shower room and a small toilet, both separated by a utility room.

    I would think it best to combine the 2 toilets to make 1 nice decent sized proper bathroom, you do have the space for it and I think it would be much nicer than 2 half-sized tiny ones
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 21st Oct 16, 10:26 AM
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    Doozergirl
    Very quickly, you need a .67 on the corner back wall of the original house as well.

    The extension is only single storey so you don't necessarily need the same bearings on openings. The smaller window is going to wnd up on the right, I suspect.

    I agree with everyone else who says to incorporate the shower and loo.

    It's a very big space. At the moment, I don't feel the proportions are quite right and the sofa area seems wasted. I am concerned that the wall between the kitchen and dining room plays some structural part though.

    I think your first call should be to a structural engineer to set your design limitations. You can take advice from the visit and then have the calcs done once you know what the limitations are or how the structural wishlist affects the budget.
    Last edited by Doozergirl; 21-10-2016 at 10:32 AM.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • casper_g
    • By casper_g 21st Oct 16, 11:34 AM
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    casper_g
    Thank you to everyone for the thoughts. I've played about with the layout as follows:
    • I've swapped the bifold doors and the window over - this means the existing back wall of the house can have a 670mm return on both sides.
    • I moved the dining area to the new extension, in front of the bifold doors, and put the kitchen in the area where the existing kitchen is. To make this space work better for the kitchen, I've got rid of the existing door to the family room.
    • I moved the door to the utility area around to the corner where I had a sofa. This had two advantages I hadn't considered previously:
      • The utility room door could be glazed which would mean a potentially dark area would benefit from borrowed light from the velux in the utility room.
      • The wall in the dining area could have a nice big Welsh dresser, something which will go down well with my other half.
    • Instead of the sofa I thought we could put in an armchair or two on the right wall, which would be better positioned to sit and chat while others are cooking.

    I couldn't think how to combine the loo and shower rooms, other than by just making the new shower room bigger and putting a toilet in there. However, the existing downstairs loo under the stairs is in good condition and in a convenient location. It seems a shame to rip it out, and a bit pointless having two downstairs loos.

    The possibility that the wall between the existing kitchen and dining room is performing a structural role (beyond supporting the floor above) is a worry. When we are closer to moving forward with this we'll make it a priority to discuss this with a structural engineer. Thanks for flagging this, Doozergirl.

    There are obviously too many unknowns in terms of the structural works, standard of finish in the kitchen/utility/shower room*, choice of flooring** etc. to price this even approximately, but can anyone suggest a ballpark worst case scenario?


    *Kitchen would likely be DIY Kitchens stuff, installed by a local independent kitchen fitter.
    **Slate or limestone tiles, perhaps.
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