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  • FIRST POST
    • trinidadone
    • By trinidadone 13th Oct 16, 8:33 PM
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    trinidadone
    Motorists, what to do about cyclists who constantly break the high way code???
    • #1
    • 13th Oct 16, 8:33 PM
    Motorists, what to do about cyclists who constantly break the high way code??? 13th Oct 16 at 8:33 PM
    Hello Motorists,

    I have seen a news report recently of the metropolitan police in London, using bicycles to challenge motorists about road rage towards cyclists.

    What rages me so much, is the endless cyclists who often use two one way streets in my neighborhood, and constantly the wrong way.

    One of the roads fits the width of a average car only, yet despite no entry signs, these are ignored by cyclists, as they hurtle down the road.

    Tonight, i spoke to one cyclists, i told him not to endanger myself and obey the highway code.

    The two streets in question do not allow cyclists to use it the wrong way (contra flow) and there is no cycle track installed, just two large no entry signs at the start of the road.

    Im asking motorists, can anything be carried out to address this problem, or is this a sign of the times, and that motorists have to accept they are the cash cows of TFL and london boroughs, and cyclists can do what the want??

    I am keen to hear from motorists only!!
    Trinidad - The hottest place to go
Page 8
    • Norman Castle
    • By Norman Castle 18th Oct 16, 9:58 AM
    • 5,290 Posts
    • 4,066 Thanks
    Norman Castle

    If they had to pay tax they would be more responsible. Maybe even insurance would be a smarter idea - and if we made them actually liable for accidents rather than it always being the car's fault.

    I have been driving for 3 years. I know not the longest time but I drive perfectly safely and I know the highway code. Cyclists do not seem to be aware of the rules of the road. They are clueless, especially the ones who exclusively cycle and do not drive.
    Originally posted by kmb500
    Motorists pay motoring taxes. This doesn't stop them killing thousands of people every year. Insurance covers liabilities, it doesn't apportion blame. In your opinion you drive perfectly safely.
    They are clueless?
    Last edited by Norman Castle; 18-10-2016 at 10:01 AM.
    Too cool for school. Also too old for school.
    • trinidadone
    • By trinidadone 18th Oct 16, 9:58 AM
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    trinidadone
    What do you mean "tax that doesn't exist"? I pay £300 road tax a year I am fairly sure that exists. I know that there are cars exempt from it, which I think is wrong. Imo all road users should contribute to it. I think it's ridiculous that "green" cars pay little or no tax, but that's a whole other issue that I won't go into.


    Obviously not all cyclists are like that... I'm not suggesting they are. But it's a huge proportion of them as far as I can see. Far more dangerous cyclists than dangerous drivers. I seldom see drivers driving through red lights or going the wrong way down one way streets, or having their headlights switched off.


    I just think cyclists should take more responsibility for their actions, and be more aware of their behaviour on the road. I don't see many ways of doing that other than policing or taxing.
    Originally posted by kmb500
    hello again, out of interest, do you think the cyclist you notice dont take responsibility because of the improved driving standards of the four wheel variety, or because there is a influx in cycle users, or something else?
    Trinidad - The hottest place to go
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 18th Oct 16, 10:08 AM
    • 2,989 Posts
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    Nasqueron
    What do you mean "tax that doesn't exist"? I pay £300 road tax a year I am fairly sure that exists. I know that there are cars exempt from it, which I think is wrong. Imo all road users should contribute to it. I think it's ridiculous that "green" cars pay little or no tax, but that's a whole other issue that I won't go into.


    Obviously not all cyclists are like that... I'm not suggesting they are. But it's a huge proportion of them as far as I can see. Far more dangerous cyclists than dangerous drivers. I seldom see drivers driving through red lights or going the wrong way down one way streets, or having their headlights switched off.


    I just think cyclists should take more responsibility for their actions, and be more aware of their behaviour on the road. I don't see many ways of doing that other than policing or taxing.
    Originally posted by kmb500
    Road tax does not exist, it was abolished in 1937

    You pay £300 a year because you drive a hugely polluting inefficient vehicle. Vehicle Excise Duty (or vehicle tax) is charged based on how much CO2 your vehicle emits (or engine size for old cars), a bike would fall into band A, same as hybrids, electric cars and those with very efficient/small engines who pay £0. As there would be £0 coming from cyclists it would lose the government money to make cyclists register each bike for VED (and would probably need some sort of separate database costing £££ given bikes don't need an MOT or insurance).

    Paying tax does not make a road user more responsible - as above some cars pay £0

    On the rest of your comment, you have confirmation bias, it's well known in car drivers - you see a car go through a red light, you dismiss it as an idiot, you see a bike and your head explodes with anger as you claim all cyclists do it. If you rarely see cars jumping red lights I can only assume you drive less than 1000 miles a year as it happens constantly, simply search on youtube for dashcam videos and you'll see hundreds as well as speeding, tailgating, undertaking, driving on the phone, drink/tired driving etc.

    You say there are far more dangerous drivers than cyclist - sorry, bull****, about 1800 drivers a year die in car crashes and kill and seriously injure thousands of pedestrians. About 1 pedestrian every 2-3 years is killed by a bike
    Last edited by Nasqueron; 18-10-2016 at 10:11 AM.
    • Norman Castle
    • By Norman Castle 18th Oct 16, 10:13 AM
    • 5,290 Posts
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    Norman Castle
    In regards to enforcement, more police at pinch points???
    Originally posted by trinidadone
    Please explain what a pinch point is and how increasing police enforcement at them would help.
    Too cool for school. Also too old for school.
    • trinidadone
    • By trinidadone 18th Oct 16, 10:15 AM
    • 2,539 Posts
    • 942 Thanks
    trinidadone
    Visibility - sometimes down to no reflections, sometimes they don't have lights or not very powerful lights. Cyclists should be equipped with very powerful lights just as cars are. I think it's awful how many bikes there are that I do not see until I am 10m behind them.


    Yeah some cyclists are OK, probably most of them, but there are so many more dangerous cyclists than drivers that I see.


    When I say shouting - I don't mean rude. I have to shout over the engine noise. Maybe it is rude, but someone needs to tell them. They don't go on safety courses like any driver must, they don't really have any accountability at all. The reactions I get are usually angry - they flip me off, tell me to F myself, and actually last week after I told a guy he shouldn't go the wrong way down the street he turned around and chased me through town!


    Its probably not the most productive measure but it's simply a matter of letting someone know when they're doing something wrong. Just as I would flash/beep a dangerous driver, and I would hope that if I did something very dangerous, someone would let me know!
    Originally posted by kmb500
    Thank you once again for your contribution, the thread is aimed at motorist, so thank you.

    thanks for clarifying the visability issue, i can relate to that, i think even the reflectors on pedals and back and front of bikes come off, not sure if bikes have to have the minimum standards, motorist need to have when using the roads???

    I agree with the powerful lights, i guess with so many lighting flooding the market, another poster said you can get lights for as cheap as £2.99 from a supermarket, not sure on their quality though!!

    I guess we always remember the bad cyclists, and never the good ones, are are you in a city or town?

    when you talk to the cyclist, do you wait for them to cycle pass you first?? I see you have received cycle rage then??? a cyclist cycled / ran after you, daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam, never got to that stage, on the very odd occassion I have confronted a cyclist, i often being ignored, especially when they have appeared in front of me on the one way street on the way home, which is such a tight road to use!!

    Like you, i also flash / beep motorist when a daft thing happens!!
    Trinidad - The hottest place to go
    • kmb500
    • By kmb500 18th Oct 16, 10:17 AM
    • 75 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    kmb500
    Hello again KMB, wow, your very brave to exercise that view point on this thread, especially as most contributors on here are cyclists and will react to your views.

    your right, there are cyclist who dont fit lights to their bikes, i never really understand why, but they dont, however, I do see a lot of responsbile cyclist on the road, who have the full cycle gear, clothing, crash helmet, flashing lights etc... which is good.

    Again, i completely understand as a motorist, sitting at a red traffic light, to find a cyclist fly pass on the left or right, and fly through red lights. But then I have seen responsible cyclists also.

    Yes, maybe a contribution from cyclists might work, however I think that would never happon, as the government / local authorities are constantly promoting cycling due to the constant influx of car ownership, policies on saving thew planet, pollution, human health etc....

    Insurance for a cycle, i dont know how that would work, but not something i have ever thought about so interesting view point.

    You mention cyclist dont appear to be aware of the rules of the road, i think there are examples i see on the road which do exercise these rules, its just the idiots who seemly see the rods as a play area.

    I cant agree that all cyclists who only cycle are clueless, I think that is going too far!!

    thank you for your contribution though, and please, dont react to the expected abuse you will receive from cyclist on this thread, happy driving
    Originally posted by trinidadone
    Well, this is a forum, people are very welcome to disagree with me!
    I don't have any delusions that taxes of any sort would be imposed, but I still believe regardless that we need better measures to hold cyclists accountable for their actions.


    I'm not sure how insurance would be implemented but I think it's something that should be considered. You can't use any other vehicles on public roads and go without insurance - I don't see why it should be different for cyclists.
    In fact the only other exception is for horses! Which shouldn't be allowed on roads anyway in my opinion.
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 18th Oct 16, 10:18 AM
    • 2,989 Posts
    • 1,624 Thanks
    Nasqueron

    Obviously not all cyclists are like that... I'm not suggesting they are. But it's a huge proportion of them as far as I can see. Far more dangerous cyclists than dangerous drivers. I seldom see drivers driving through red lights or going the wrong way down one way streets, or having their headlights switched off.

    Originally posted by kmb500
    In 2013:

    1,713 deaths from RTAs (reported) by cars:

    398 pedestrians, 109 cyclists, 331 motorcyclists, 785 car drivers, 90 other road users

    In year to March 2015:
    1740 road deaths from cars
    23570 killed or seriously injured
    186060 road casualties of all severity

    In 2012 there were 79 KSI incidents between bikes and pedestrians

    Cyclists are clearly more dangerous!
    • kmb500
    • By kmb500 18th Oct 16, 10:20 AM
    • 75 Posts
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    kmb500
    Totally disagree. The number of examples of bad driving massively outweigh the examples of bad cycling that I see. Routinely on my journey to work I will see a fair number of drivers on their phone, not indicating, cutting dangerously into traffic, jumping lights. The difference is that I don't brand all drivers as being unsafe.
    Originally posted by jimjames
    Well that's down to our different experiences. I tell you with my hand on my heart, that I experience a lot more dangerous cyclists than dangerous drivers. Then again I am not used to driving being surrounded by cyclists - if you're more used to them then maybe you don't see some of their dangerous behaviour as being too bad.
    • Norman Castle
    • By Norman Castle 18th Oct 16, 10:25 AM
    • 5,290 Posts
    • 4,066 Thanks
    Norman Castle
    I drive a convertible, if my roof is down I will shout at them while I drive past and tell them to stop being dangerous.
    Originally posted by kmb500
    You publicly display your arrogant self importance and drive off contentedly ignorant.
    You're just a motorist. One of millions. You're nothing special.
    Too cool for school. Also too old for school.
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 18th Oct 16, 10:29 AM
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    • 1,624 Thanks
    Nasqueron
    Well that's down to our different experiences. I tell you with my hand on my heart, that I experience a lot more dangerous cyclists than dangerous drivers. Then again I am not used to driving being surrounded by cyclists - if you're more used to them then maybe you don't see some of their dangerous behaviour as being too bad.
    Originally posted by kmb500
    What do you call "dangerous"? You mean cyclists who risk their own life jumping red lights? As opposed to the 5 people a day killed by car drivers?
    • kmb500
    • By kmb500 18th Oct 16, 10:36 AM
    • 75 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    kmb500
    Road tax does not exist, it was abolished in 1937

    You pay £300 a year because you drive a hugely polluting inefficient vehicle. Vehicle Excise Duty (or vehicle tax) is charged based on how much CO2 your vehicle emits (or engine size for old cars), a bike would fall into band A, same as hybrids, electric cars and those with very efficient/small engines who pay £0. As there would be £0 coming from cyclists it would lose the government money to make cyclists register each bike for VED (and would probably need some sort of separate database costing £££ given bikes don't need an MOT or insurance).

    Paying tax does not make a road user more responsible - as above some cars pay £0

    On the rest of your comment, you have confirmation bias, it's well known in car drivers - you see a car go through a red light, you dismiss it as an idiot, you see a bike and your head explodes with anger as you claim all cyclists do it. If you rarely see cars jumping red lights I can only assume you drive less than 1000 miles a year as it happens constantly, simply search on youtube for dashcam videos and you'll see hundreds as well as speeding, tailgating, undertaking, driving on the phone, drink/tired driving etc.

    You say there are far more dangerous drivers than cyclist - sorry, bull****, about 1800 drivers a year die in car crashes and kill and seriously injure thousands of pedestrians. About 1 pedestrian every 2-3 years is killed by a bike
    Originally posted by Nasqueron
    The vehicle tax system being based on CO2 makes no sense and is out of line with every single other tax. Tax as a rule of thumb is based on how much money you have. Your income tax is determined by the value of your income. Council tax is determined by the value of your house. Vehicle tax should be determined by the value of your vehicle! Tax is meant to be that those who can afford it pay more. Why my £2000 car pays infinitely more tax than some brand new £20,000 cars... it makes no sense.


    "you have confirmation bias, it's well known in car drivers - you see a car go through a red light, you dismiss it as an idiot"
    Why do you feel the need to insult me like this? It's true I rarely see it happen with cars. I see it a lot with bikes! I would feel just as spiteful to a car that did that. But I've maybe seen one car run a red light this year? Seen loads of bikes do it.
    That being said there are no traffic lights within a 10 mile radius of either my house or my workplace so I don't face it every day.


    There are no statistics on bike-caused accidents because bikes currently cannot be held accountable for any car crash. If a cyclist behaves erratically and forces a car to swerve and crash, then that's considered the fault of the driver and recorded as such. That's why I said we should BEGIN to consider cyclists as being liable for some car crashes.
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 18th Oct 16, 11:14 AM
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    • 1,624 Thanks
    Nasqueron
    The vehicle tax system being based on CO2 makes no sense and is out of line with every single other tax. Tax as a rule of thumb is based on how much money you have. Your income tax is determined by the value of your income. Council tax is determined by the value of your house. Vehicle tax should be determined by the value of your vehicle! Tax is meant to be that those who can afford it pay more. Why my £2000 car pays infinitely more tax than some brand new £20,000 cars... it makes no sense.
    Originally posted by kmb500
    VED is a pollution tax to discourage people from buying low MPG high polluting cars that harm our environment. My commuter bike cost £550 so I should pay much less tax than you. Income tax / NI is based on earnings yes, VAT isn't, neither is fuel duty and they are more comparable with VED. It would be better to tax fuel and scrap VED altogether but that still means bikes pay nothing!

    "you have confirmation bias, it's well known in car drivers - you see a car go through a red light, you dismiss it as an idiot"
    Why do you feel the need to insult me like this? It's true I rarely see it happen with cars. I see it a lot with bikes! I would feel just as spiteful to a car that did that. But I've maybe seen one car run a red light this year? Seen loads of bikes do it.
    That being said there are no traffic lights within a 10 mile radius of either my house or my workplace so I don't face it every day.
    Originally posted by kmb500
    Low mileage, no traffic lights etc. Confirmation bias isn't an insult, it's just a way humans are, same as the right wing people read the Daily Mail / Daily Express as they give the stories they want to hear (poor people are all benefit scroungers, all immigrants are thieves etc). You see a bike jump a red light, it reinforces your view all bikes jump red lights. You see a car do it and you think "what a numpty". I can 100% guarantee you that you are in an extremely low minority if you never see cars jump red lights, it happens all the time, just this morning I saw 2 vans waiting at a pedestrian crossing and went as soon as the pedestrians were off the road even though the light was red.

    There are no statistics on bike-caused accidents because bikes currently cannot be held accountable for any car crash. If a cyclist behaves erratically and forces a car to swerve and crash, then that's considered the fault of the driver and recorded as such. That's why I said we should BEGIN to consider cyclists as being liable for some car crashes.
    Originally posted by kmb500

    Utter garbage, the government collects them

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/467465/rrcgb-2014.pdf

    Also see below:

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3758677.ece

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study
    • jimjames
    • By jimjames 18th Oct 16, 11:29 AM
    • 10,851 Posts
    • 8,919 Thanks
    jimjames
    "you have confirmation bias, it's well known in car drivers - you see a car go through a red light, you dismiss it as an idiot"
    Why do you feel the need to insult me like this? It's true I rarely see it happen with cars. I see it a lot with bikes! I would feel just as spiteful to a car that did that. But I've maybe seen one car run a red light this year? Seen loads of bikes do it.
    That being said there are no traffic lights within a 10 mile radius of either my house or my workplace so I don't face it every day.
    Originally posted by kmb500
    Interesting that originally it was "huge proportion" of cyclists yet now there are no traffic lights within 10 miles so it's not something seen every day. I drive through multiple sets of traffic lights every day and the number of cyclists jumping them is tiny. In fact I can't recall seeing any recently unlike cars jumping them. Unless you count getting off and walking across the junction as jumping them as some seem to think.

    I see far more dangerous driving from car and van drivers but I don't tar all car/van drivers the same way.

    Why my £2000 car pays infinitely more tax than some brand new £20,000 cars... it makes no sense.
    Originally posted by kmb500
    Despite all your anti-cyclist rants this is one aspect I do have some agreement with. However when you look at it on a technical, practical level it's hard to see how it could be implemented. Obviously a new car has a very defined list price and is used as such for company car taxation. Used is a different matter as price is hugely variable. For older cars it's even worse as there are only 2 bands. You can have a 1.6 litre Fiesta and pay the same VED as a 5 litre Mercedes which is far more polluting so it doesn't fit the green agenda either.

    I guess effectively the VED is based on value as most high polluting cars are also the high value ones with the exception of ones like Tesla. All changes as of next year anyway.
    Last edited by jimjames; 18-10-2016 at 11:34 AM.
    Remember the saying: if it looks too good to be true it almost certainly is.
    • Head The Ball
    • By Head The Ball 18th Oct 16, 11:34 AM
    • 1,807 Posts
    • 3,832 Thanks
    Head The Ball
    You publicly display your arrogant self importance and drive off contentedly ignorant.
    You're just a motorist. One of millions. You're nothing special.
    Originally posted by Norman Castle
    One day he will p**s off the wrong cyclist who will catch him at the next lights or traffic jam, lean into his open top car and 'express his displeasure'.

    Remember Bus W****rs in The Inbetweeners?
    When I was growing up plastic surgery was a bit of a taboo subject. These days if you mention botox no one raises an eyebrow.
    • Head The Ball
    • By Head The Ball 18th Oct 16, 11:37 AM
    • 1,807 Posts
    • 3,832 Thanks
    Head The Ball
    Visibility - sometimes down to no reflections, sometimes they don't have lights or not very powerful lights. Cyclists should be equipped with very powerful lights just as cars are. I think it's awful how many bikes there are that I do not see until I am 10m behind them....
    Originally posted by kmb500
    I suggest that you get your eyes or your car lights checked.

    Perhaps both
    When I was growing up plastic surgery was a bit of a taboo subject. These days if you mention botox no one raises an eyebrow.
    • Head The Ball
    • By Head The Ball 18th Oct 16, 11:41 AM
    • 1,807 Posts
    • 3,832 Thanks
    Head The Ball
    Funnily enough I have one now

    My main ambitition is to catch out that bus driver
    . His attitude toward cyclists is awful.
    Originally posted by Enterprise 1701C
    Have you reported the incident(s) to the bus company?

    They should know which driver was driving which bus at a certain time and place.

    If they get more than one or two reports about an individual driver they may well take action, even if there is no hard evidence.
    When I was growing up plastic surgery was a bit of a taboo subject. These days if you mention botox no one raises an eyebrow.
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 18th Oct 16, 12:14 PM
    • 2,989 Posts
    • 1,624 Thanks
    Nasqueron
    I suggest that you get your eyes or your car lights checked.

    Perhaps both
    Originally posted by Head The Ball
    As a cyclist and driver I sort of agree with him on this - there are people who go out on bikes in all black clothing, no lights, no reflectors and you don't see them until 10m away
    • Strider590
    • By Strider590 18th Oct 16, 12:30 PM
    • 10,468 Posts
    • 5,780 Thanks
    Strider590
    I cant agree that all cyclists who only cycle are clueless, I think that is going too far!!
    Originally posted by trinidadone

    Cyclists who are drivers, who have recently moved to cycling, they are actually the worst for running lights.

    Try it yourself, get on a bike and ride toward a set of red lights and see how you feel about stopping. It's tricky because your head is saying "hey im not in a car, im a pedestrian and I don't need to stop, I can just take the footpath".

    When I started cycling after a 10+ year break, that was exactly what was in my mind the first time I rode up to a set of traffic lights, it felt stupid sitting there with cars when I could just get off, walk along the footpath and carry on.

    So when it comes to cyclist light jumping, the majority of them are also drivers.
    Having the last word isn't the same as being right.......

    "Never confuse education with intelligence"
    • kmb500
    • By kmb500 18th Oct 16, 12:33 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    kmb500
    VED is a pollution tax to discourage people from buying low MPG high polluting cars that harm our environment. My commuter bike cost £550 so I should pay much less tax than you. Income tax / NI is based on earnings yes, VAT isn't, neither is fuel duty and they are more comparable with VED. It would be better to tax fuel and scrap VED altogether but that still means bikes pay nothing!
    Originally posted by Nasqueron
    Well I don't think there should be any pollution tax at all, all tax should either be flat, or increase based on monetary value.

    Low mileage, no traffic lights etc. Confirmation bias isn't an insult, it's just a way humans are, same as the right wing people read the Daily Mail / Daily Express as they give the stories they want to hear (poor people are all benefit scroungers, all immigrants are thieves etc). You see a bike jump a red light, it reinforces your view all bikes jump red lights. You see a car do it and you think "what a numpty". I can 100% guarantee you that you are in an extremely low minority if you never see cars jump red lights, it happens all the time, just this morning I saw 2 vans waiting at a pedestrian crossing and went as soon as the pedestrians were off the road even though the light was red.
    Originally posted by Nasqueron
    Maybe I am in a minority, but it's just what I see. And no I do not do "low mileage", I do ~15000/year.



    Interesting that originally it was "huge proportion" of cyclists yet now there are no traffic lights within 10 miles so it's not something seen every day.
    Originally posted by jimjames
    Well that's what I mean, I do not encounter many cyclists but when I do, a much larger proportion of them are dangerous compared to cars.

    Despite all your anti-cyclist rants this is one aspect I do have some agreement with. However when you look at it on a technical, practical level it's hard to see how it could be implemented. Obviously a new car has a very defined list price and is used as such for company car taxation. Used is a different matter as price is hugely variable. For older cars it's even worse as there are only 2 bands. You can have a 1.6 litre Fiesta and pay the same VED as a 5 litre Mercedes which is far more polluting so it doesn't fit the green agenda either.
    I guess effectively the VED is based on value as most high polluting cars are also the high value ones with the exception of ones like Tesla. All changes as of next year anyway.
    Originally posted by jimjames
    Oh really? What changes next year?
    And yeah it would be difficult to implement given that there are so many different cars. But the Valuation Office manages with houses, I'm sure it could be possible, if expensive. I mean very simply, you can set a level of expected depreciation, and just calculate it based on the list price new and how many years old the car is.


    Everything these days is to support the green agenda... or rather, to bankroll the big manufacturing corporations...
    • kmb500
    • By kmb500 18th Oct 16, 12:54 PM
    • 75 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    kmb500
    Cyclists who are drivers, who have recently moved to cycling, they are actually the worst for running lights.

    Try it yourself, get on a bike and ride toward a set of red lights and see how you feel about stopping. It's tricky because your head is saying "hey im not in a car, im a pedestrian and I don't need to stop, I can just take the footpath".

    When I started cycling after a 10+ year break, that was exactly what was in my mind the first time I rode up to a set of traffic lights, it felt stupid sitting there with cars when I could just get off, walk along the footpath and carry on.

    So when it comes to cyclist light jumping, the majority of them are also drivers.
    Originally posted by Strider590
    I have never cycled in traffic or at red lights, I dunno what it's like. I used to cycle all the time and when I started driving, I suddenly realised how invisible I could be and then prompted me to wear highly reflective jacket and use very good lights on my bike.
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