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    • jondav
    • By jondav 13th Oct 16, 11:41 AM
    • 300Posts
    • 133Thanks
    jondav
    Help with Economy 7 Heaters
    • #1
    • 13th Oct 16, 11:41 AM
    Help with Economy 7 Heaters 13th Oct 16 at 11:41 AM
    We currently rent a flat that has Economy 7 electric supply, there is no gas in the building and we are on pay as you go. Now this works really well in the summer, because our electricity bill is very low indeed because we take advantage of using the washing machine etc overnight on the cheaper tariff.

    However now it is getting colder, the electric wall heaters that we have are our only form of heating and they absolutely motor hrough the electricity and it is costing us a fortune. A couple of questions if I may:

    1: Are these likely to be storage heaters?
    2: If they are, I don't know if I am using them in the most efficient way because I have no idea how the "storage" aspect of them works.
    3: Is there an alternative to these that are cheaper to run? Maybe a simple plug-in fan heater for each room?

    Any advice appreciated
Page 1
    • CashStrapped
    • By CashStrapped 13th Oct 16, 12:41 PM
    • 859 Posts
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    CashStrapped
    • #2
    • 13th Oct 16, 12:41 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Oct 16, 12:41 PM
    To identify if they are Storage heaters.

    1. Look at the controls on them. Are there ones labelled input and output?

    2. If you turn them on during the day, do you get heat from them immediately?

    3 If you are still unsure, look for a model number on them and type it in to google and look at the results or image results.

    4. If you cannot do that, type storage heaters in google, look at image results and see if you can find ones that look like yours.


    If they are storage heaters, these are deigned for an E7 tariff. Storage Heaters can be the cheapest way to heat an all electric property. This does depend on living habits however.

    Storage Heaters

    1) They work by charging (or storing) at night on a very cheap rate of electricity (e7 tariff). It sounds complicated , but really all they do is heat up two huge bricks inside them which can retain heat for 24hrs.

    2) Depending on how you have set the controls. They release certain amounts of this stored heat the next day at a consistent rate.

    3) The input setting controls how much electricity is use to store heat. This is determined by how cold you think it will be the next day. The higher the setting, the more electricity is used and the more heat is stored.

    4) The output control determines how quickly the stored heat is released. It should always be set to the lowest figure. It should only be turned up for a quick boost. It should always be set back to the lowest figure before bed. This is so too much heat is not released at night whilst they charge/store heat.

    If they are not storage heaters, and the above does not reflect how your heaters operate, you may have standard panel heaters.

    Panel Heaters

    1) These operate using the day rate of electricity (more expensive).

    2) They heat up pretty much immediately.

    3) They are more responsive, but can be more expensive to run. This is to do with the fact that daytime tariffs (on e7) or any normal single rate tariffs will be more expensive then the e7 night rate.

    4) The better ones have thermostats and timers built in. Thermostats turn the panel heater off when the room is warm enough.

    5) They could be a better and cheaper option if you work all day and the house is well insulated. They would only be used for short periods in the morning and evening.

    Panel heaters should not be used on an e7 tariff.

    E7 Tariff

    This has two tariffs. A day rate and a night rate. The idea is that all your hot water and heating is done on the night rate (if you have storage heaters and a hot water tank with a timer). The night rate is far cheaper then the day rate.

    You usually have to give your energy supplier two readings because of this.

    You can then work out your annual night use percentage. So if your annual total use is 5000kwh. And your night use was 2500kwh, Your night use percentage was...50%.

    You should be aiming for figures upwards of 60% to make e7 the cheapest option..


    That is, if you have storage heaters. If not, you may want to switch to a standard rate.
    Last edited by CashStrapped; 13-10-2016 at 12:49 PM.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 13th Oct 16, 1:07 PM
    • 26,079 Posts
    • 12,542 Thanks
    Cardew
    • #3
    • 13th Oct 16, 1:07 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Oct 16, 1:07 PM
    However now it is getting colder, the electric wall heaters that we have are our only form of heating and they absolutely motor hrough the electricity and it is costing us a fortune. A couple of questions if I may:

    1: Are these likely to be storage heaters?
    2: If they are, I don't know if I am using them in the most efficient way because I have no idea how the "storage" aspect of them works.
    3: Is there an alternative to these that are cheaper to run? Maybe a simple plug-in fan heater for each room?

    Any advice appreciated
    Originally posted by jondav
    By 'electric wall heaters' do you mean hung on the wall? If so there are unlikely to be storage heaters and probably panel heaters. Storage heaters are extremely heavy and normally stood on the floor..

    Plug-in fan heaters, or any kind of heater, will be no cheaper to run than panel heaters; all electrical heating is 100% efficient and you get exactly the same amount of heat for the amount of electricity consumed.

    The reason why storage heaters are used is because they use off-peak electricity



    [/B]
    • jondav
    • By jondav 13th Oct 16, 1:20 PM
    • 300 Posts
    • 133 Thanks
    jondav
    • #4
    • 13th Oct 16, 1:20 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Oct 16, 1:20 PM
    Thanks for this guys......reading what you have said, they are definitely not storage heaters. They are attached to the walls and they are quite slim and all they have on them is an on/off switch and a temperature control.

    We are definitely on the Economy 7 tariff though and do have a hot water tank that we heat overnight.
    • CashStrapped
    • By CashStrapped 13th Oct 16, 1:25 PM
    • 859 Posts
    • 478 Thanks
    CashStrapped
    • #5
    • 13th Oct 16, 1:25 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Oct 16, 1:25 PM
    I would look at working your your day/night E7 split. I suspect that if you are on an e7 tariff, it is not worth it.

    Normally, without storage heaters, if you require heating in the mornings and evenings, swapping to a single rate meter and tariff will be more cost effective.

    Do the maths to be sure and work out your annual use in KWH.

    You also want to try and get off that pay as you go meter. These, generally, are more expensive tariffs.

    Again, do a comparison and compare the best prepay tariff, with the best normal tariff.

    EDF are very good for meter swaps as they do not do a credit check and the swap is free.

    You do not need your landlords permission to do a meter swap and/or tariff change. Your landlord does not own the meter and it should not affect the flat electrics. You may want to let them know however [as a courtesy], that is up to you. But, they cannot (or should not) stop you from switching tariff/meter as it could save you a lot of money.
    Last edited by CashStrapped; 13-10-2016 at 5:44 PM.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 13th Oct 16, 1:26 PM
    • 26,079 Posts
    • 12,542 Thanks
    Cardew
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 16, 1:26 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 16, 1:26 PM
    As you are probably aware, daytime electricity rates when on an E7 tariff are very high when on a pre-pay meter.

    Now winter is approaching, you need to monitor your consumption to see what percentage of electricity is consumed at night, as it might be better to switch to a 24/7 'normal' rate.

    Does your landlord insist on a pre-pay meter?
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 13th Oct 16, 1:34 PM
    • 26,079 Posts
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    Cardew
    • #7
    • 13th Oct 16, 1:34 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Oct 16, 1:34 PM
    You do not need your landlords permission to do a meter swap and/or tariff change. Your landlord does not own the meter and it should not affect the flat electrics. You may want to let them now however, that is up to you. But, they cannot stop you from switching tariff/meter as it could save you a lot of money.
    Originally posted by CashStrapped
    Not sure about not getting landlords permission for meter swap:

    http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/switch-prepaid-gas-electricity

    Renting? You'll need your landlord's permission to switch meter


    If you want to change from a prepay to a credit meter, then it's best to get written permission from your landlord first.
    This is because it could be seen as changing the property from its original condition, unless you arrange to change the meter back at the end of the tenancy. The supplier may charge to do this so check first.
    But you can still (probably) switch energy supplier...
    You should check your tenancy agreement to see what it says about switching utility suppliers. But even if your contract bans it, Ofgem's guidance states that if you pay the energy bill, you're still entitled to change supplier (check your tenancy agreement too – though if it says you can't switch, challenge it).
    You don't need to get permission from your landlord to do this, but it's a good idea to let them know in writing so they're aware as it will impact future tenants.
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=63490577&_ga=1.3390134.781909257. 1472972250#post63490577
    • jondav
    • By jondav 13th Oct 16, 1:36 PM
    • 300 Posts
    • 133 Thanks
    jondav
    • #8
    • 13th Oct 16, 1:36 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Oct 16, 1:36 PM
    I would look at working your your day/night E7 split. I suspect that if you are on an e7 tariff, it is not worth it.

    Normally, without storage heaters, if you require heating in the mornings and evenings, swapping to a single rate meter and tariff will be more cost effective.

    Do the maths to be sure and work out your annual use in KWH.

    You also want to try and get off that pay as you go meter. These, generally, are more expensive tariffs.

    Again, do a comparison and compare the best prepay tariff, with the best normal tariff.

    EDF are very good for meter swaps as they do not do a credit check and the swap is free.

    You do not need your landlords permission to do a meter swap and/or tariff change. Your landlord does not own the meter and it should not affect the flat electrics. You may want to let them now however, that is up to you. But, they cannot stop you from switching tariff/meter as it could save you a lot of money.
    Originally posted by CashStrapped
    As you are probably aware, daytime electricity rates when on an E7 tariff are very high when on a pre-pay meter.

    Now winter is approaching, you need to monitor your consumption to see what percentage of electricity is consumed at night, as it might be better to switch to a 24/7 'normal' rate.

    Does your landlord insist on a pre-pay meter?
    Originally posted by Cardew
    I will try to keep a close record of usage so that I can do some accurate calculations. I didn't realise that we could change the meter.....the LL hasn't objected but to be honest I haven't asked either
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 13th Oct 16, 2:02 PM
    • 26,079 Posts
    • 12,542 Thanks
    Cardew
    • #9
    • 13th Oct 16, 2:02 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Oct 16, 2:02 PM
    I will try to keep a close record of usage so that I can do some accurate calculations. I didn't realise that we could change the meter.....the LL hasn't objected but to be honest I haven't asked either
    Originally posted by jondav
    If he doesn't object to the pre-pay meter being removed, then get it changed. Even if you stayed on E7 a credit meter will allow you to get a cheaper tariff.
    • jondav
    • By jondav 13th Oct 16, 2:52 PM
    • 300 Posts
    • 133 Thanks
    jondav
    If he doesn't object to the pre-pay meter being removed, then get it changed. Even if you stayed on E7 a credit meter will allow you to get a cheaper tariff.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    Thanks for the advice. The LL is very good so I can't see it being an issue, I will approach them and ask the question and will ask the neighbours also if they have any experience of this sort of thing because some of them have been there for a number of years
    • CashStrapped
    • By CashStrapped 13th Oct 16, 5:43 PM
    • 859 Posts
    • 478 Thanks
    CashStrapped
    Interesting....it is sill a bit vague. Which is why I would always check first/ask anyway.

    Water meter guidance is similar. If the tenancy is more then six months then you should not have to ask permission, but it is best to do so.

    I was always under the impression that if it does not involve any changes to the property after the meter, I do not see how the landlord could complain. As the meter is not the landlords property anyway.

    I guess the landlord may/could prefer the prepay option to avoid fraud....but....a careful landlord could always avoid that with a good check-in/out.
    • sacsquacco
    • By sacsquacco 13th Oct 16, 10:58 PM
    • 3,659 Posts
    • 2,422 Thanks
    sacsquacco
    Interesting....it is sill a bit vague. Which is why I would always check first/ask anyway.

    Water meter guidance is similar. If the tenancy is more then six months then you should not have to ask permission, but it is best to do so.

    I was always under the impression that if it does not involve any changes to the property after the meter, I do not see how the landlord could complain. As the meter is not the landlords property anyway.

    I guess the landlord may/could prefer the prepay option to avoid fraud....but....a careful landlord could always avoid that with a good check-in/out.
    Originally posted by CashStrapped
    Prepayment meters are much more likely to be involved with abstraction of electricity in my experience. Some thieves deliberately get into a big debt and get the prepays fitted with the debts added to the meter to be repaid at a weekly rate. Then the meters are easily bypassed.
    Depends on the landlord if he expects his tenants to prefer a credit meter. They can be around 20% cheaper if a fixed 2 year deal is selected from a price comparison website.
    As Cardew has said the tenancy agreement will have a clause somewhere about leaving the property in the same condition as when they started to avoid losing the bond and that will include the meters in the property.
    Last edited by sacsquacco; 14-10-2016 at 8:28 AM.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 14th Oct 16, 12:55 PM
    • 26,079 Posts
    • 12,542 Thanks
    Cardew
    Interesting....it is sill a bit vague. Which is why I would always check first/ask anyway.

    Water meter guidance is similar. If the tenancy is more then six months then you should not have to ask permission, but it is best to do so.

    I was always under the impression that if it does not involve any changes to the property after the meter, I do not see how the landlord could complain. As the meter is not the landlords property anyway.

    I guess the landlord may/could prefer the prepay option to avoid fraud....but....a careful landlord could always avoid that with a good check-in/out.
    Originally posted by CashStrapped
    At least with water there is definitive guidance from Ofwat:

    http://www.ofwat.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/prs_lft_101117meters.pdf

    I am a tenant. Can I still apply for a meter?

    If you live in rented accommodation, you still have the right to apply for a meter. We recommend that you ask your landlord’s permission before applying for a meter. If you have a fixed-term tenancy agreement of less than six months, you must ask the landlord’s permission.
    If your fixed-term tenancy agreement is longer than six months, your landlord cannot stop you from having a meter. However, you may need their consent to alter or improve their property.


    As the majority of water meters these days are installed outside the house, it reduces the grounds for the landlord to object.
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