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  • FIRST POST
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 13th Oct 16, 9:13 AM
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    NigeWick
    30 kW Nissan Leaf
    • #1
    • 13th Oct 16, 9:13 AM
    30 kW Nissan Leaf 13th Oct 16 at 9:13 AM
    I'm thinking of buying a 30kW Nissan Leaf in my efforts to be a bit more green and save on road tax and fuel costs. I do however have a bit of "range anxiety." I know the official figure is 155 miles but I am sure that's total twaddle.

    I occasionally drive 120 miles to visit our daughter and I was wondering if any members here can give me a realistic everyday range, especially for motorway driving at 70mph.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
Page 2
    • Buzby
    • By Buzby 14th Oct 16, 12:07 PM
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    Buzby
    My Electricity at home is from EDF and is cheaper than that offered by Ecotricity, even if I charged once per were 'free'. Don't be swayed by this, think of it only as a possible benefit.
    • ElefantEd
    • By ElefantEd 14th Oct 16, 11:35 PM
    • 477 Posts
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    ElefantEd
    But, if you are more concerned about being green, then Ecotricity might be the better bet as the electricity is 100% green, and profits are used to increase green generating capacity. But it probably is more expensive in money terms. On the other hand, you will be saving so much in petrol costs you may not notice!
    • iolanthe07
    • By iolanthe07 15th Oct 16, 11:22 AM
    • 4,662 Posts
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    iolanthe07
    Does using air conditioning in the summer significantly reduce the Leaf's range?
    I used to think that good grammar is important, but now I know that good wine is importanter.
    • AylesburyDuck
    • By AylesburyDuck 15th Oct 16, 3:37 PM
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    AylesburyDuck
    We have a 30kw Leaf.
    Hubby says you'll be lucky to get 110 out of it on a 70mph motorway drive, and thats during summer, that will reduce the colder the weather gets.
    ,
    Fully paid up member of the ignore button club.
    If it walks like a Duck, quacks like a Duck, it's a Duck.
    • AylesburyDuck
    • By AylesburyDuck 15th Oct 16, 3:40 PM
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    AylesburyDuck
    Does using air conditioning in the summer significantly reduce the Leaf's range?
    Originally posted by iolanthe07
    3 miles off a full charge if run, so not really.
    ,
    Fully paid up member of the ignore button club.
    If it walks like a Duck, quacks like a Duck, it's a Duck.
    • sillygoose
    • By sillygoose 15th Oct 16, 11:22 PM
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    sillygoose
    Enjoy the Leaf..

    BEWARE OF ECOTRICITY T&Cs.. Fair Use of 52 Free Charges per year. (1 per week) after the 1 free per week you pay the normal £6 per charge.

    I was about to change to them as my supplier but in the end it worked out cheaper sticking with Eon and stumping up for the Motoway charging when needed.
    Originally posted by Stageshoot
    Exactly! my dual energy bill with Ecotricity would be £800 higher than my current supplier and for this you would get 52 charges, only to 80% remember so £40 worth of electricity for £800, good deal eh?
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 16th Oct 16, 10:22 AM
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    NigeWick
    Stageshoot, Thanks for the heads up. I am aware of Ecotricity's T&Cs on this and I should not need quite as many as 52 of their charges in a year. I will be going with Ecotricity because they only supply renewable energy and I can afford it. My mains electricity use is quite low now as we had a 4kW solar system with Immersun water heating add on fitted last year. And, next year I'm intending to get battery storage and a water recycling shower.

    Checking on line, Nissan may be upgrading the Leaf to a 40kWh battery next month.
    Last edited by NigeWick; 16-10-2016 at 10:38 AM.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • almillar
    • By almillar 17th Oct 16, 11:04 AM
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    almillar
    Ecotricity - note that IKEA seem to have kept their chargers free, so that could be an option for you.
    If you find a rapid charger on the way to your daughter's house, maybe it would be suitable for a coffee break and a good old charge. If you're planning to charge at your daughter's house, via a 3 pin plug, it would be very slow - you'd need to be staying overnight to get enough charge to travel home.
    I've got a Renault Zoe, which has a 22kWh battery - Renault have just announced a 41kWh model - this would make your journey a bit more comfortable range-wise than the 30kWh Leaf, but it's Fiesta sized rather than Focus sized.
    Summer is no problem for electric cars, and in my experience overall, you could get 1.5x range in summer versus winter. Summer = use aircon, but batteries perform better in warmer temperatures. Winter - use lights, wipers, rear heated windscreen, heater (remember, electric cars have to MAKE heat), and the batteries perform worse in the cold. Winter is the time when range really gets squeezed. And 60mph really will take you a lot further than 70mph. Sorry!
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 18th Oct 16, 9:07 AM
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    NigeWick
    If you find a rapid charger on the way to your daughter's house, maybe it would be suitable for a coffee break and a good old charge. If you're planning to charge at your daughter's house, via a 3 pin plug, it would be very slow - you'd need to be staying overnight to get enough charge to travel home.
    I've got a Renault Zoe, which has a 22kWh battery - Renault have just announced a 41kWh model - this would make your journey a bit more comfortable range-wise than the 30kWh Leaf, but it's Fiesta sized rather than Focus sized.
    Originally posted by almillar
    There's charger at South Mimms before I hit the M25 car park. Then there is a fast charger about 400 yards from her house. The other daughter lives a little closer and there is a fast charger half way and the town's Waitrose also has one. At present I've got a Toyota Yaris and it's big enough for my needs and a Fiesta size vehicle would be fine.

    I saw that Renault are coming out with a larger batteried Zoe, and, Hyundai are soon to produce an all new EV called the Ioniq that looks good. For half a moment I looked at the Mercedes B class EV but one can't even use fast chargers on the thing.

    Decisions, decisions......
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • bartelbe
    • By bartelbe 18th Oct 16, 9:39 AM
    • 352 Posts
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    bartelbe
    The big issue for me with the leaf and other EVs is the dying battery problem. Batteries build up a memory, after a whiled they won't fully charge. This can be made worse by the manner in which the battery is used, lots of rapid charging or partial charges.

    I wouldn't buy an EV only to have to face a huge bill in the 1000's to replace a dead battery pack. I wouldn't buy one secondhand for the same reason, and I suspect it must affect their residual value.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 18th Oct 16, 9:43 AM
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    NigeWick
    The big issue for me with the leaf and other EVs is the dying battery problem. Batteries build up a memory, after a whiled they won't fully charge.
    Originally posted by bartelbe
    My understanding is that Nissan will repair/replace a battery pack if it loses a certain amount of capacity, up to 5 years for the 24kWh and 8 years for the 30kWh. I have not checked other manufacturers yet.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • almillar
    • By almillar 18th Oct 16, 1:34 PM
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    almillar
    The big issue for me with the leaf and other EVs is the dying battery problem. Batteries build up a memory, after a whiled they won't fully charge. This can be made worse by the manner in which the battery is used, lots of rapid charging or partial charges.

    I wouldn't buy an EV only to have to face a huge bill in the 1000's to replace a dead battery pack. I wouldn't buy one secondhand for the same reason, and I suspect it must affect their residual value.
    Lithium Ion batteries, as used in electric cars, don't build up a memory as such, but they do degrade with use, yes. It's not the big issue you describe though, as in real use, across hundreds of thousands of miles, the degradation is fastest at the start, then tails off.
    Rapid charging - yes, charging fast is supposed to be hard on the battery, and they're also not happy being full or empty, better being in between. Nissan even provided the Leaf with a mode that would only allow it to charge to 80% for this reason. Renault didn't bother. This tells me that the issues above really aren't as bad as you make out.
    For info, Renault promise to change your battery when it gets down to 75 of original capacity. Thing is, it just hasn't happened.
    The Zoe only has 1 socket - Type 2, and it's AC. Some can charge at 43kW and some (mine) can charge at 22kW. You'll get a 7kWh socket for at home if you can take the installation - that's faster than you'll be charging a Leaf at home (6kW tops as an optional extra I think).
    Last edited by almillar; 18-10-2016 at 1:38 PM.
    • Stageshoot
    • By Stageshoot 18th Oct 16, 1:37 PM
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    Stageshoot
    My understanding is that Nissan will repair/replace a battery pack if it loses a certain amount of capacity, up to 5 years for the 24kWh and 8 years for the 30kWh. I have not checked other manufacturers yet.
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    They will but as always there is a catch.

    They all work on a similar system to the BMW system which is

    When you take your car in for its annual check up they measure the battery capacity. If the battery capacity is below 70% then they will replace it for you (Heres the catch) They will only pay for the % between what it is and 70%.

    So if you get in and find your battery is 67% they will replace it and you get back 3% of the total cost. What a bargain.

    So beware the battery warranties and read the small print.

    At least with BMW when the 60Ah battery finally dies (They predict 8 years or 100000 miles on electric for it to get to 70% capacity)., They will replace it with the latest capacity battery (Currently 94Ah expected to be 120Ah next year). As they are keeping them the same size and shape while the car remains in production. Not sure how Nissan/Renault Handle it unless you have the battery lease option.
    • almillar
    • By almillar 19th Oct 16, 1:14 PM
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    almillar
    As they are keeping them the same size and shape while the car remains in production. Not sure how Nissan/Renault Handle it unless you have the battery lease option.
    Renault will replace if it falls below 75% - not necessarily with a brand new one though. Thing is, it just hasn't happened! A new Zoe has just been announced with a 41kWh battery, to be sold alongside the existing 22kWh battery - It's the same shape, and the existing cars can be upgraded. The small matter of the cost of this upgrade will be announced later in the year.
    • BeenThroughItAll
    • By BeenThroughItAll 19th Oct 16, 1:16 PM
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    BeenThroughItAll
    Renault will replace if it falls below 75% - not necessarily with a brand new one though. Thing is, it just hasn't happened! A new Zoe has just been announced with a 41kWh battery, to be sold alongside the existing 22kWh battery - It's the same shape, and the existing cars can be upgraded. The small matter of the cost of this upgrade will be announced later in the year.
    Originally posted by almillar
    When they replaced the battery pack on my Zoe earlier this year, the list price quoted for parts (done under warranty though) was almost 5K.
    • Richard53
    • By Richard53 19th Oct 16, 9:38 PM
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    Richard53
    When they replaced the battery pack on my Zoe earlier this year, the list price quoted for parts (done under warranty though) was almost 5K.
    Originally posted by BeenThroughItAll
    Blimey! I'm just thinking of how much unleaded you could buy for £5k.


    Nearly 30k miles in my Merc.
    If all misfortunes were laid in one common heap whence everyone must take an equal portion, most people would be contented to take their own and depart. (Attrib. to Socrates)
    • ElefantEd
    • By ElefantEd 19th Oct 16, 11:07 PM
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    ElefantEd
    Blimey! I'm just thinking of how much unleaded you could buy for £5k.


    Nearly 30k miles in my Merc.
    Originally posted by Richard53
    Yes, but how likely is it that you'll need to replace a battery pack? 50k+ miles on our Leaf, no noticeable battery degradation yet.

    You much would it cost to replace the engine in your Merc?
    • Richard53
    • By Richard53 19th Oct 16, 11:26 PM
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    Richard53
    Yes, but how likely is it that you'll need to replace a battery pack? 50k+ miles on our Leaf, no noticeable battery degradation yet.

    You much would it cost to replace the engine in your Merc?
    Originally posted by ElefantEd
    Well, the battery packs have a limited lifespan, so they will need replacing at some point. An IC engine should last the life of the car with proper maintenance. So the two are not directly comparable.


    I was half-joking, though, as I am sure you knew. But the huge cost of replacement batteries is a not insignificant reason why people are wary of buying these cars second-hand. It's the same with electric bikes (I have one). Quite expensive new, but, at two years old, worth buttons because everyone knows that to replace the battery - inevitable eventually - will cost as much as the bike is worth.
    If all misfortunes were laid in one common heap whence everyone must take an equal portion, most people would be contented to take their own and depart. (Attrib. to Socrates)
    • ElefantEd
    • By ElefantEd 20th Oct 16, 9:52 AM
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    ElefantEd
    Well, the battery packs have a limited lifespan, so they will need replacing at some point. An IC engine should last the life of the car with proper maintenance. So the two are not directly comparable.


    I was half-joking, though, as I am sure you knew. But the huge cost of replacement batteries is a not insignificant reason why people are wary of buying these cars second-hand. It's the same with electric bikes (I have one). Quite expensive new, but, at two years old, worth buttons because everyone knows that to replace the battery - inevitable eventually - will cost as much as the bike is worth.
    Originally posted by Richard53
    It will be interesting to see how long the batteries generally last. And of course it's not like they completely fail, just have a lower range. So even a car with a 50% battery is still viable for at least some people (ie those who only do short-ish trips).

    Also, given that the maintenance of a petrol/diesel engine is not cost free, whereas the maintenance cost on the battery of an EV is essentially zero (as you can't really do any as far as I know!), I wonder how the lifetime costs stack up against each other.
    • almillar
    • By almillar 20th Oct 16, 1:14 PM
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    almillar
    An IC engine should last the life of the car with proper maintenance. So the two are not directly comparable.
    They are though. I've been saying all through this thread that the worry over the batteries has been mostly unfounded, and that it's not as much a problem as had been thought in the real world. I think it's safe to say (early days yet!) that a battery will last the life of an electric car, in the same way as an engine will last the life of a petrol or diesel car.
    Think of the economics - £5k to replace a battery, say. How much to replace an engine - at a dealers, remember, because that £5k is a dealer price for a (brand new?) battery.
    If the price is too high, the life of the car is over and it'll be scrapped, whether that's due to the engine, or the battery failing, it'll simply be uneconomical to repair. So it depends on what you define as 'life'. There's a taxi company in England with at least 1 Leaf in their fleet with 200,000 miles on it, on all the original drivetrain - that's more miles than most cars cover.
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