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Smart Parking PCN paid by lease company (arval) - Scotland - Help on what to do now!?

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  • pappa_golf
    pappa_golf Posts: 8,895
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    andyspeake wrote: »
    So they've got back to me.
    Heres my initial reply (formatting has been lost so not easily readible!:
    I request that you do not debit my bank account in respect of this matter, and should you make any such unauthorized debit I will immediately have it refunded to my account under the terms of the Direct Debit Guarantee.

    I have several reasons why I ask this:

    You have paid the speculative invoice when you should not have done so in the first place. ARVAL are not liable and should have passed this directly to me which you have not done so.
    Due to the above point, my ability to appeal this has been compromised to the point where any further appeals/contact with smart parking are useless.
    The contract I entered when parking was between the driver and smart parking ltd. POFA does not apply in scotland of which I'm a resident of and where the PCN was issues in a scottish car park. Keeper liability does not exist
    10.1 of my terms and conditions which I've agreed to are in relation to statutory and council issued fines. It does not mention speculative invoices from unregulated parking companies which are not enforcable. ARVAL should have no liability, in this occasion you have taken liability before contacting me. Arval’s terms and conditions of my lease have no bearing on an unconnected private contract between individuals.
    In accordance with BVRLA guidlines, you should have advised smart parking ltd of my details and wiped your hands clean of this matter - Which you have not done so going against this completely.
    The invoice you have sent me relates to a fine - This is not a fine, this is an alleged breach of contract between the driver and smart parting ltd which is not enforceable, this is a civil matter not covered in the T&C's i signed.
    In issuing an invoice against a parking charge notice that Arval received and paid in error and in charging for the perceived costs of their mistake Arval acted outside the terms of my lease agreement with Arval.
    I look forward to a speedy resolution to this matter.


    And here is there response:

    Thank you for your email.

    The reason we pay parking charges and bus lane offences on behalf of the customer, is to reduce any risk of escalation which could lead to increased costs to you. To offer greater flexibility and control we can change the account policy to enable the customer to pay or appeal penalty charges directly to the issuer.

    To enable you to do this, we would amend the policy to ‘Change of Address’ which means that instead of paying penalty charge notices (PCN’s) - we will send a copy of the customer contract to the issuer, who will redirect the notice directly for payment or appeal. The administration fee for this process is £12.50 + VAT per penalty charge

    If you would like us to make this change to the account, we need consent to pass on customer data. If you (the customer) would like to pay penalty charges directly, please complete the attached Change of Address form and send a scanned copy back to [EMAIL="fines.team@arval.co.uk"][email protected][/EMAIL] , with the subject ‘Change of Address’.

    Important

    Any parking/bus lane charges that are referred back to Arval for payment, due to non payment by the customer, will be paid for by Arval and recharged.

    Exceptions

    We can not redirect congestion charges as the authorities will not allow us to transfer liability to someone else. We will continue to pay these and invoice them through to you.

    Please note the parking company have the right to request payment from the registered keeper as per the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the registered keeper is then required to settle the charge or transfer liability to the hirer.

    Arval need authorisation to be able to provide the customer address to the parking company.

    Clause 10.1 of our agreement means that you indemnify Arval “In respect of any responsibility, claims, liabilities, losses, damages, or expenses, including legal fees, and any liability resulting from legislation for the payment of fines or penalties for parking, driving or similar offences or contraventions in connection with Vehicle…”.

    This equally includes invoices for parking charges which are demanded from us by car park operators. Unfortunately, the car park operator is able to make a demand and seek recovery of the charge from us and where they do costs can quickly mount. This is why we have clause 10.1 in our agreement and why we do take the opportunity to stop charges and costs escalating which would put you even further out of pocket.

    I fully understand your frustration at incurring what you think is an unreasonable charge made by the car park operator but I refer you to the Appeal Courts decision in Parking Eye v Beavis. Our advice is please be careful to read the terms and conditions offered by car park operators when using their facilities and be aware of any charges.

    If you wish Arval to transfer liability for all future fines, please confirm via the conformation slip


    They've pretty much ignored all my points here.




    Please note the parking company have the right to request payment from the registered keeper as per the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the registered keeper is then required to settle the charge or transfer liability to the hirer.


    they don,t get it , do they
    Save a Rachael

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  • Sent my reply off...lets seem what's next.

    Dear Arval,

    You’ve failed to address any of the issues I’ve raised in my previous email.

    Let’s be clear first that this is not a fine issued by a statutory body that is legally enforceable, this is a speculative invoice based on a contract between driver and smart parking ltd which ARVAL was not liable to pay.

    1) On my invoice from ARVAL it states parking fine, this is incorrect.

    2) Under 10.1 of my T&C’s you are not liable to pay this invoice, as you have now paid this you accepted liability completely against my contract with you.

    3) This was not ARVAL’s invoice to pay. My contract covers Penalties or Fines under legislation which I’m more than happy to pay but this case is about neither. This is an invoice that is not enforceable therefore clause 10.1 is irrelevant.

    4) The contract entered when parking would have been between myself and Smart Parking Ltd. It would have been a private contract and Arval would not have been party to it. This is a civil matter.

    5) Protection of Freedom Act 2012 does not apply in Scotland. Even if it did, allows you to pass this invoice onto me to remove ARVAL from any sort of liability. Again, you have gone against this in paying the invoice to smart parking ltd incorrectly.

    6) ARVAL is a member of the BVRLA, The BVRLA confirm that they have entered a memorandum of understanding with the BPA regarding ParkingCharge Notice’s. This information was communicated to all members. LINK TO BVRLA PARKING CHARGES MEMO. You have not followed best practice according to BVRLA guidelines. I’ll have to open a formal complaint with the BVRLA if this matter is not resolved.


    I don’t see how the Parking Eye v Beavis case applies here, you may have to clarify that for me but I see it as irrelevant.

    I maintain that any charge on my account for this matter will be seen as an unauthorised transaction.
  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 58,110
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    edited 17 October 2016 at 1:25PM
    andyspeake wrote: »
    Sent my reply off...lets seem what's next.

    Dear Arval,

    You’ve failed to address any of the issues I’ve raised in my previous email.

    Let’s be clear first that this is not a fine issued by a statutory body that is legally enforceable, this is a speculative invoice based on a contract between driver and smart parking ltd which ARVAL was not liable to pay.

    1) On my invoice from ARVAL it states parking fine, this is incorrect.

    2) Under 10.1 of my T&C’s you are not liable to pay this invoice, as you have now paid this you accepted liability completely against my contract with you.

    3) This was not ARVAL’s invoice to pay. My contract covers Penalties or Fines under legislation which I’m more than happy to pay but this case is about neither. This is an invoice that is not enforceable therefore clause 10.1 is irrelevant.

    4) The contract entered when parking would have been between myself and Smart Parking Ltd. It would have been a private contract and Arval would not have been party to it. This is a civil matter.

    5) Protection of Freedom Act 2012 does not apply in Scotland. Even if it did, allows you to pass this invoice onto me to remove ARVAL from any sort of liability. Again, you have gone against this in paying the invoice to smart parking ltd incorrectly.

    6) ARVAL is a member of the BVRLA, The BVRLA confirm that they have entered a memorandum of understanding with the BPA regarding ParkingCharge Notice’s. This information was communicated to all members. LINK TO BVRLA PARKING CHARGES MEMO. You have not followed best practice according to BVRLA guidelines. I’ll have to open a formal complaint with the BVRLA if this matter is not resolved.


    I don’t see how the Parking Eye v Beavis case applies here, you may have to clarify that for me but I see it as irrelevant.

    I maintain that any charge on my account for this matter will be seen as an unauthorised transaction.


    They say, "Please note the parking company have the right to request payment from the registered keeper as per the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the registered keeper is then required to settle the charge or transfer liability to the hirer."
    This is at best completely inaccurate, and at worst, a blatant lie. The parking company has no such right and therefore Arval have no right, implied or otherwise to pay this charge.

    The POFA 2012 does not apply (does not exist) in Scottish law and therefore cannot be applied in Scotland. This means that Arval were never liable, and neither are you.
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  • Arval have went ahead and took the PCN invoice out of my account through Direct Debit and have not responded to my last email - Idiots.

    I think strongly worded follow up email giving them the chance to refund the money or else i'll use direct debit scheme to dispute?

    If nothing from that, email to CEO if I can find his details, end correspondence through email with ARVAL and open BVRLA complaint.

    What do you guys think?
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,105
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    I think you need to put this into dispute IMMEDIATELY with your bank.
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  • Hmmm okay, interesting, they literally just emailed back:
    Thank you for your email.

    I have spoken to my manager, to avoid this happening again, we will refund the parking charge notice of £60.00 plus the administration fee if you change your policy to Transfer Liability.

    I have attached the Change of Address form, once this has been completed and scanned back to us, we will amend your policy and refund the charges.


    Going by that i'm assuming they want me to pay the transfer of liability policy change charge! They are ridiculous!!
  • pappa_golf
    pappa_golf Posts: 8,895
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    edited 17 October 2016 at 11:18AM
    tell them no you decline their offer and suggest they update them selves on the law and BVRLA guidelines , if you have not received a refund within 14 days you will contact the BVRLA and ask them to offer a dispute resolution


    although "To enable you to do this, we would amend the policy to ‘Change of Address’ which means that instead of paying penalty charge notices (PCN’s) - we will send a copy of the customer contract to the issuer, who will redirect the notice directly for payment or appeal. The administration fee for this process is £12.50 + VAT per penalty charge"


    is a small figure for their admin services


    perhaps you should contact BVRLA and ask them if that figure has been agreed with them , or should the do it Free of charge
    Save a Rachael

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  • Ok, so they've confirmed they will not charge me to change the policy but should I get another PCN they will charge me the £12.50 for future PCN's.

    I suppose this is a win for me, i'll get my refund and I'll just agree to the change in policy. Not really got the time and motivation to fight it anymore so I think i'll settle for that!
  • pappa_golf
    pappa_golf Posts: 8,895
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    actually , £12.50 is a lot less than a letter from the bank , or a simple change on car insurance , I think its ok , as you will fight the PPCs and if they set put in court , you win and reclaim your £12.50
    Save a Rachael

    buy a share in crapita
  • catfunt
    catfunt Posts: 624
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    andyspeake wrote: »
    Ok, so they've confirmed they will not charge me to change the policy but should I get another PCN they will charge me the £12.50 for future PCN's.

    I suppose this is a win for me, i'll get my refund and I'll just agree to the change in policy. Not really got the time and motivation to fight it anymore so I think i'll settle for that!

    Personally, I would accept their kind offer, then immediately you have had your refund, find yourself another hire/lease company! They do not deserve your custom.

    Arval have been here before, and still persist with their policy even though they have been told several times now that it is wrong.
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