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  • FIRST POST
    • andyspeake
    • By andyspeake 11th Oct 16, 8:43 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 7Thanks
    andyspeake
    Smart Parking PCN paid by lease company (arval) - Scotland - Help on what to do now!?
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 16, 8:43 PM
    Smart Parking PCN paid by lease company (arval) - Scotland - Help on what to do now!? 11th Oct 16 at 8:43 PM
    Hi All,

    I've been reading over several previous threads on similar PCN's through leasing companys and various legislation but seems like this mostly applies to England/Wales and not Scotland where I am from, feel a bit confused as to how to handle this. Here's where i'm at.

    Background
    A PCN was posted to my lease company Arval who proceeded to pay this invoice before contacting me in anyway. They then sent the letter through advising of the PCN and will take it out through direct debit on the 17th October.

    Smart Parking PCN
    The car park is enforced by APNR cameras, on the day I did purchase a ticket which is tied against the registration number but they claim a ticket was never purchased. I must have incorrectly entered the reg on the ticket. Unfortunately i no longer have this ticket.

    At the time of entering the car park, there was literally 2-3 other cars parked and was dead. If they checked CCTV they would see me walking over to machine and purchasing a ticket. They could even check the list of tickets purchased that day and see it was me a no other cars entered or left the car park 10-15 mins before or after I entered.

    What i've done so far
    I immediately emailed the fines department @ arval advising they should not pay this and should appeal - Smart parking could easily check CCTV and tie it in with the list of ticket purchased at the time to see I may have mad a mistake with the registration.

    Arval confirmed they have appealed to smart parking to check CCTV.

    Days later I then recieved the Arval invoice for the "parking fine" of £60 plus the admin fee. So i chased again to confirm the status of the appeal with smart parking.

    Arval confirmed Smart parking have rejected the appeal, saying they don't have CCTV which is nonsense.

    This is the last correspondance from Arval:

    Thank you for your email.

    I have received a response and unfortunately Smart Parking has decided to reject your appeal. Please find attached a copy of the correspondence explaining the reasons why this fine remains valid.

    Unfortunately on this occasion Arval are unable to appeal this any further. I apologise that this is not the desired outcome.


    Next Steps
    It looks like POFA and POPLA doesn't apply in scotland.

    Arval quoted these the initial respone to me asking them to appeal
    Thank you for your email.

    The parking charge notice was issued as no payment was made, I have written to Smart Parking asking them to check CCTV as the registration number might have been entered incorrectly. As soon as I hear back from them I will advise.
    Arval will ensure that the parking company is a member of the BPA - British Parking Association or the IPC – Independent Parking Committee. This is an approved operator scheme designed specifically for BPA or IPC members, involved in parking enforcement services on private land, or in unregulated public car parks.
    Only an approved operator will be able to obtain registered keeper details from the DVLA - any company/organisation accessing Vehicle Keeper data via an electronic request process (that is not a Local Authority or Government Organisation), must be a member of an Accredited Trade Association - such as the BPA or IPC
    Parking companies, providing they have complied with the requirements set down in the Protection of Freedom Act 2012, sect 56 and Sch 4, Arval, in the best interest of its customers and to preserve the security of its assets, has currently adopted the policy whereby fines, penalties and other forms of parking contraventions (both statutory and civil) are paid immediately by Arval to reduce the risk to the hirer of increased costs by way of a higher fine, penalty or other such charge, this also has the effect of preserving Arval’s asset from seizure, or some other form of restraint of use.

    For the avoidance of doubt, and as this matter is the subject of considerable confusion amongst the wider public, the term fine is not merely restricted to those under statute, likewise penalty is also not merely restricted to those under statute.


    I'm looking for some opinion/comments on whether to continue working with Arval to appeal which seems pointless (Appeal to BPA) or to now refuse to pay the invoice to arval on my direct debit which Arval have sent me based on them paying the invoice. The invoice was not issued by a legal authority and is a civil matter so arval should have really passed my details on to smart parking but by paying the invoice they have basically accepted liability?

    My contract with the hire company I signed states:
    10.1
    In respect of any responsibility, claims, liabilities, losses, damages, or expenses, including legal fees, and any liability resulting from legislation for the ppayment of penalties or fines for parking, driving or similar offences or contraventions in connection with vehicles (the "liability"): (a) ARVAL has no responsibilty for the liability; (b) the hirer accepts all responsibility for the liability including taking the appropriate action ; and (c) the Hirer indemnifies ARVAL and holds ARVAL harmless against liability. ARVAL shall be entitled to charge the Hirer a reasonable administration fee for any work carried out or documentation processes relating to liability

    This mentions nothing to do with private parking invoices.

    Thanks All.

    Andy
Page 1
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 11th Oct 16, 8:52 PM
    • 5,394 Posts
    • 4,930 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 16, 8:52 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 16, 8:52 PM
    read this , read it well and use the wording the OP used , contact the people that the op did , and then report back when you are happy


    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=108397&hl=Arval
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 11th Oct 16, 8:57 PM
    • 795 Posts
    • 745 Thanks
    waamo
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 16, 8:57 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 16, 8:57 PM
    This might help too http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5515157&highlight=arval
    This space for hire.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 11th Oct 16, 9:01 PM
    • 5,394 Posts
    • 4,930 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 16, 9:01 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 16, 9:01 PM
    the first reply states "I would inform them that legislation over rules their terms and conditions.
    The protection of freedom act makes them as keeper very clearly liable for all parking charges by approved operators unless they discharge their liability by filling in the paper work with the drivers details."




    however the OPs case refers to Scotland , and there is no POFA in Scotland


    I would suggest that the OP contacts the BMPA http://www.bmpa.eu/ for a definitive answer to that point
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Oct 16, 9:05 PM
    • 40,525 Posts
    • 52,411 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 16, 9:05 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 16, 9:05 PM
    I think the OP should also complain to the BVRLA and use their ADR. Arval have cited English law as a reason to pay a charge in Scotland for which they were never liable. It wasn't theirs to pay, Arval could NEVER have been liable.

    The BVRLA offer dispute resolution so that can be the final aim unless the OP can force Arval's hand to bank down, as people here have before.

    Try to force Arval to refund/not charge you first though, point out that the law they are relying on does not apply in your country so what's their next excuse? This is their mistake, an error for which they pay, not you.

    However you should never have said who was driving you know - you are in Scotland and your appeal was never going to work and gave away the driver. Not a good move.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 11-10-2016 at 9:52 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • andyspeake
    • By andyspeake 11th Oct 16, 9:51 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    andyspeake
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 16, 9:51 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 16, 9:51 PM
    Thanks everyone for the responses, very much appreciated.

    the first reply states "I would inform them that legislation over rules their terms and conditions.
    The protection of freedom act makes them as keeper very clearly liable for all parking charges by approved operators unless they discharge their liability by filling in the paper work with the drivers details."




    however the OPs case refers to Scotland , and there is no POFA in Scotland


    I would suggest that the OP contacts the BMPA for a definitive answer to that point
    Originally posted by pappa golf
    From bmpa website..
    In Scotland and Northern Ireland there is no so-called "Keeper Liability" only the driver can be held to have agreed a contract - if such a contract exists.
    I may contact them to clarify.

    I think the OP should also complain to the BVRLA and use their ADR. Arval have cited English law as a reason to pay a charge in Scotland for which they were never liable. It wasn't theirs to pay, Arval could NEVER have been liable.

    The BVRLA offer dispute resolution so that can be the final aim unless the OP can force Arval's hand to bank down, as people here have before.

    Try to force Arval to refund/not charge you first though, point out that the law they are relying on does not apply in your country so what's their next excuse? This is their mistake, they pay, not you.

    However you should never have said who was driving you know - you are in Scotland and your appeal was never going to work and gave away the driver. Not a good move.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I now understand I made a big mistake when appealing! If i'm honest i though it would be quite a simple process to get the PCN dropped but i was a bit naive when thinking that after doing my research!

    I agree, I'll go down the route of refusing to pay the invoice from arval first.
    - The legislation they've quoted does not apply in Scotland
    - As it was a contract between driver and car park, arval should never have intruded.. They were not liable to pay and should have passed this to me to handle.
    - They terms of my contract do not mention anything about private parking invoices from unregulated parking firms and Arval paying then immediately.

    If that fails then BVRLA will be the next step. Will post back how I get on.

    Thanks
    Andy
    • Castle
    • By Castle 11th Oct 16, 10:00 PM
    • 1,068 Posts
    • 1,320 Thanks
    Castle
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 16, 10:00 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 16, 10:00 PM
    You may want to forward copies of your letters to trading standards in Scotland and ask them to investigate the misleading statements and actions of Arval.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Oct 16, 10:03 PM
    • 11,009 Posts
    • 16,433 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 16, 10:03 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 16, 10:03 PM
    You may want to forward copies of your letters to trading standards in Scotland and ask them to investigate the misleading statements and actions of Arval.
    Originally posted by Castle
    Good point.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 11th Oct 16, 11:40 PM
    • 2,950 Posts
    • 3,950 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #9
    • 11th Oct 16, 11:40 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Oct 16, 11:40 PM
    Wasnt there a serious issue involving a PPC spouting off about the POFA in conjunction with a Scottish parking charge.

    found it, and although the PPC got away with it, this could be different:


    An English company accused of sending “unenforceable” parking tickets to Scottish motorists has been cleared of fraud in a landmark legal case. Civil Enforcement Ltd went on trial earlier this week after handing out fines to vehicle owners in Kemnay, Kintore and Inverurie, in Aberdeenshire, who had supposedly spent too long in private car parks between December 2013 and August 2014. Prosecutors claimed that over a nine-month period the firm sent “civil penalty charges” in full knowledge that the legislation cited on the paperwork was not valid in Scotland. Civil Enforcement was alleged to have demanded payment under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 – which only covers the recovery of unpaid parking charges south of the Border. But at the close of the Crown case yesterday defence advocate Craig Findlater made a no case to answer submission, claiming there was an “insufficiency of evidence” and that some of the allegations “had no evidence whatsoever” to back them up, as the people mentioned in certain charges were not put on the stand during the trial. Sheriff Edward Savage ruled in favour of upholding the submission and found Civil Enforcement not guilty of all charges.

    Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/news/english-parking-charge-firm-cleared-of-fraud-by-scots-court-1-4000569
    An English company accused of sending “unenforceable” parking tickets to Scottish motorists has been cleared of fraud in a landmark legal case. Civil Enforcement Ltd went on trial earlier this week after handing out fines to vehicle owners in Kemnay, Kintore and Inverurie, in Aberdeenshire, who had supposedly spent too long in private car parks between December 2013 and August 2014. Prosecutors claimed that over a nine-month period the firm sent “civil penalty charges” in full knowledge that the legislation cited on the paperwork was not valid in Scotland. Civil Enforcement was alleged to have demanded payment under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 – which only covers the recovery of unpaid parking charges south of the Border. But at the close of the Crown case yesterday defence advocate Craig Findlater made a no case to answer submission, claiming there was an “insufficiency of evidence” and that some of the allegations “had no evidence whatsoever” to back them up, as the people mentioned in certain charges were not put on the stand during the trial. Sheriff Edward Savage ruled in favour of upholding the submission and found Civil Enforcement not guilty of all charges.
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/english-parking-charge-firm-cleared-of-fraud-by-scots-court-1-4000569
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • andyspeake
    • By andyspeake 13th Oct 16, 3:59 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    andyspeake
    So they've got back to me.
    Heres my initial reply (formatting has been lost so not easily readible!:
    I request that you do not debit my bank account in respect of this matter, and should you make any such unauthorized debit I will immediately have it refunded to my account under the terms of the Direct Debit Guarantee.

    I have several reasons why I ask this:

    You have paid the speculative invoice when you should not have done so in the first place. ARVAL are not liable and should have passed this directly to me which you have not done so.
    Due to the above point, my ability to appeal this has been compromised to the point where any further appeals/contact with smart parking are useless.
    The contract I entered when parking was between the driver and smart parking ltd. POFA does not apply in scotland of which I'm a resident of and where the PCN was issues in a scottish car park. Keeper liability does not exist
    10.1 of my terms and conditions which I've agreed to are in relation to statutory and council issued fines. It does not mention speculative invoices from unregulated parking companies which are not enforcable. ARVAL should have no liability, in this occasion you have taken liability before contacting me. Arval’s terms and conditions of my lease have no bearing on an unconnected private contract between individuals.
    In accordance with BVRLA guidlines, you should have advised smart parking ltd of my details and wiped your hands clean of this matter - Which you have not done so going against this completely.
    The invoice you have sent me relates to a fine - This is not a fine, this is an alleged breach of contract between the driver and smart parting ltd which is not enforceable, this is a civil matter not covered in the T&C's i signed.
    In issuing an invoice against a parking charge notice that Arval received and paid in error and in charging for the perceived costs of their mistake Arval acted outside the terms of my lease agreement with Arval.
    I look forward to a speedy resolution to this matter.


    And here is there response:

    Thank you for your email.

    The reason we pay parking charges and bus lane offences on behalf of the customer, is to reduce any risk of escalation which could lead to increased costs to you. To offer greater flexibility and control we can change the account policy to enable the customer to pay or appeal penalty charges directly to the issuer.

    To enable you to do this, we would amend the policy to ‘Change of Address’ which means that instead of paying penalty charge notices (PCN’s) - we will send a copy of the customer contract to the issuer, who will redirect the notice directly for payment or appeal. The administration fee for this process is £12.50 + VAT per penalty charge

    If you would like us to make this change to the account, we need consent to pass on customer data. If you (the customer) would like to pay penalty charges directly, please complete the attached Change of Address form and send a scanned copy back to fines.team@arval.co.uk , with the subject ‘Change of Address’.

    Important

    Any parking/bus lane charges that are referred back to Arval for payment, due to non payment by the customer, will be paid for by Arval and recharged.

    Exceptions

    We can not redirect congestion charges as the authorities will not allow us to transfer liability to someone else. We will continue to pay these and invoice them through to you.

    Please note the parking company have the right to request payment from the registered keeper as per the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the registered keeper is then required to settle the charge or transfer liability to the hirer.

    Arval need authorisation to be able to provide the customer address to the parking company.

    Clause 10.1 of our agreement means that you indemnify Arval “In respect of any responsibility, claims, liabilities, losses, damages, or expenses, including legal fees, and any liability resulting from legislation for the payment of fines or penalties for parking, driving or similar offences or contraventions in connection with Vehicle…”.

    This equally includes invoices for parking charges which are demanded from us by car park operators. Unfortunately, the car park operator is able to make a demand and seek recovery of the charge from us and where they do costs can quickly mount. This is why we have clause 10.1 in our agreement and why we do take the opportunity to stop charges and costs escalating which would put you even further out of pocket.

    I fully understand your frustration at incurring what you think is an unreasonable charge made by the car park operator but I refer you to the Appeal Courts decision in Parking Eye v Beavis. Our advice is please be careful to read the terms and conditions offered by car park operators when using their facilities and be aware of any charges.

    If you wish Arval to transfer liability for all future fines, please confirm via the conformation slip


    They've pretty much ignored all my points here.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 13th Oct 16, 4:10 PM
    • 3,096 Posts
    • 4,387 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    We've seen an almost identical response from ARVAL before (either here on on Pepipoo) with the special offer for you to sign away all your rights and even be charged £12.50 a pop for the pleasure. An offer you'll surely decline.

    You are right, they are incapable of telling apart a real penalty/fine from a statutory body and an invoice. Same as the car hire companies. It;s their business, they ought to know.

    Maybe you should ask they what they mean precisely about PE vs Beavis (because it's largely irrelevant), or have they merely plucked this out of the air. Also note that under their clause 10.1, they never had any liability in the first place (as you've already said).

    You need to escalate this right to the top - stop messing around withe the no-hope monkeys you are currently dealing with. Make it a formal complaint. You could start with pointing out their complete lack of understanding regarding POFA with relation to Scotland.
    Last edited by The Slithy Tove; 13-10-2016 at 4:13 PM.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 13th Oct 16, 4:26 PM
    • 5,394 Posts
    • 4,930 Thanks
    pappa golf
    So they've got back to me.
    Heres my initial reply (formatting has been lost so not easily readible!:
    I request that you do not debit my bank account in respect of this matter, and should you make any such unauthorized debit I will immediately have it refunded to my account under the terms of the Direct Debit Guarantee.

    I have several reasons why I ask this:

    You have paid the speculative invoice when you should not have done so in the first place. ARVAL are not liable and should have passed this directly to me which you have not done so.
    Due to the above point, my ability to appeal this has been compromised to the point where any further appeals/contact with smart parking are useless.
    The contract I entered when parking was between the driver and smart parking ltd. POFA does not apply in scotland of which I'm a resident of and where the PCN was issues in a scottish car park. Keeper liability does not exist
    10.1 of my terms and conditions which I've agreed to are in relation to statutory and council issued fines. It does not mention speculative invoices from unregulated parking companies which are not enforcable. ARVAL should have no liability, in this occasion you have taken liability before contacting me. Arval’s terms and conditions of my lease have no bearing on an unconnected private contract between individuals.
    In accordance with BVRLA guidlines, you should have advised smart parking ltd of my details and wiped your hands clean of this matter - Which you have not done so going against this completely.
    The invoice you have sent me relates to a fine - This is not a fine, this is an alleged breach of contract between the driver and smart parting ltd which is not enforceable, this is a civil matter not covered in the T&C's i signed.
    In issuing an invoice against a parking charge notice that Arval received and paid in error and in charging for the perceived costs of their mistake Arval acted outside the terms of my lease agreement with Arval.
    I look forward to a speedy resolution to this matter.


    And here is there response:

    Thank you for your email.

    The reason we pay parking charges and bus lane offences on behalf of the customer, is to reduce any risk of escalation which could lead to increased costs to you. To offer greater flexibility and control we can change the account policy to enable the customer to pay or appeal penalty charges directly to the issuer.

    To enable you to do this, we would amend the policy to ‘Change of Address’ which means that instead of paying penalty charge notices (PCN’s) - we will send a copy of the customer contract to the issuer, who will redirect the notice directly for payment or appeal. The administration fee for this process is £12.50 + VAT per penalty charge

    If you would like us to make this change to the account, we need consent to pass on customer data. If you (the customer) would like to pay penalty charges directly, please complete the attached Change of Address form and send a scanned copy back to fines.team@arval.co.uk , with the subject ‘Change of Address’.

    Important

    Any parking/bus lane charges that are referred back to Arval for payment, due to non payment by the customer, will be paid for by Arval and recharged.

    Exceptions

    We can not redirect congestion charges as the authorities will not allow us to transfer liability to someone else. We will continue to pay these and invoice them through to you.

    Please note the parking company have the right to request payment from the registered keeper as per the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the registered keeper is then required to settle the charge or transfer liability to the hirer.

    Arval need authorisation to be able to provide the customer address to the parking company.

    Clause 10.1 of our agreement means that you indemnify Arval “In respect of any responsibility, claims, liabilities, losses, damages, or expenses, including legal fees, and any liability resulting from legislation for the payment of fines or penalties for parking, driving or similar offences or contraventions in connection with Vehicle…”.

    This equally includes invoices for parking charges which are demanded from us by car park operators. Unfortunately, the car park operator is able to make a demand and seek recovery of the charge from us and where they do costs can quickly mount. This is why we have clause 10.1 in our agreement and why we do take the opportunity to stop charges and costs escalating which would put you even further out of pocket.

    I fully understand your frustration at incurring what you think is an unreasonable charge made by the car park operator but I refer you to the Appeal Courts decision in Parking Eye v Beavis. Our advice is please be careful to read the terms and conditions offered by car park operators when using their facilities and be aware of any charges.

    If you wish Arval to transfer liability for all future fines, please confirm via the conformation slip


    They've pretty much ignored all my points here.
    Originally posted by andyspeake



    Please note the parking company have the right to request payment from the registered keeper as per the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the registered keeper is then required to settle the charge or transfer liability to the hirer.


    they don,t get it , do they
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • andyspeake
    • By andyspeake 13th Oct 16, 7:33 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    andyspeake
    Sent my reply off...lets seem what's next.

    Dear Arval,

    You’ve failed to address any of the issues I’ve raised in my previous email.

    Let’s be clear first that this is not a fine issued by a statutory body that is legally enforceable, this is a speculative invoice based on a contract between driver and smart parking ltd which ARVAL was not liable to pay.

    1) On my invoice from ARVAL it states parking fine, this is incorrect.

    2) Under 10.1 of my T&C’s you are not liable to pay this invoice, as you have now paid this you accepted liability completely against my contract with you.

    3) This was not ARVAL’s invoice to pay. My contract covers Penalties or Fines under legislation which I’m more than happy to pay but this case is about neither. This is an invoice that is not enforceable therefore clause 10.1 is irrelevant.

    4) The contract entered when parking would have been between myself and Smart Parking Ltd. It would have been a private contract and Arval would not have been party to it. This is a civil matter.

    5) Protection of Freedom Act 2012 does not apply in Scotland. Even if it did, allows you to pass this invoice onto me to remove ARVAL from any sort of liability. Again, you have gone against this in paying the invoice to smart parking ltd incorrectly.

    6) ARVAL is a member of the BVRLA, The BVRLA confirm that they have entered a memorandum of understanding with the BPA regarding ParkingCharge Notice’s. This information was communicated to all members. LINK TO BVRLA PARKING CHARGES MEMO. You have not followed best practice according to BVRLA guidelines. I’ll have to open a formal complaint with the BVRLA if this matter is not resolved.


    I don’t see how the Parking Eye v Beavis case applies here, you may have to clarify that for me but I see it as irrelevant.

    I maintain that any charge on my account for this matter will be seen as an unauthorised transaction.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 13th Oct 16, 8:40 PM
    • 36,468 Posts
    • 73,302 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Sent my reply off...lets seem what's next.

    Dear Arval,

    You’ve failed to address any of the issues I’ve raised in my previous email.

    Let’s be clear first that this is not a fine issued by a statutory body that is legally enforceable, this is a speculative invoice based on a contract between driver and smart parking ltd which ARVAL was not liable to pay.

    1) On my invoice from ARVAL it states parking fine, this is incorrect.

    2) Under 10.1 of my T&C’s you are not liable to pay this invoice, as you have now paid this you accepted liability completely against my contract with you.

    3) This was not ARVAL’s invoice to pay. My contract covers Penalties or Fines under legislation which I’m more than happy to pay but this case is about neither. This is an invoice that is not enforceable therefore clause 10.1 is irrelevant.

    4) The contract entered when parking would have been between myself and Smart Parking Ltd. It would have been a private contract and Arval would not have been party to it. This is a civil matter.

    5) Protection of Freedom Act 2012 does not apply in Scotland. Even if it did, allows you to pass this invoice onto me to remove ARVAL from any sort of liability. Again, you have gone against this in paying the invoice to smart parking ltd incorrectly.

    6) ARVAL is a member of the BVRLA, The BVRLA confirm that they have entered a memorandum of understanding with the BPA regarding ParkingCharge Notice’s. This information was communicated to all members. LINK TO BVRLA PARKING CHARGES MEMO. You have not followed best practice according to BVRLA guidelines. I’ll have to open a formal complaint with the BVRLA if this matter is not resolved.


    I don’t see how the Parking Eye v Beavis case applies here, you may have to clarify that for me but I see it as irrelevant.

    I maintain that any charge on my account for this matter will be seen as an unauthorised transaction.
    Originally posted by andyspeake

    They say, "Please note the parking company have the right to request payment from the registered keeper as per the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the registered keeper is then required to settle the charge or transfer liability to the hirer."
    This is at best completely inaccurate, and at worst, a blatant lie. The parking company has no such right and therefore Arval have no right, implied or otherwise to pay this charge.

    The POFA 2012 does not apply (does not exist) in Scottish law and therefore cannot be applied in Scotland. This means that Arval were never liable, and neither are you.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 17-10-2016 at 2:25 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • andyspeake
    • By andyspeake 17th Oct 16, 11:35 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    andyspeake
    Arval have went ahead and took the PCN invoice out of my account through Direct Debit and have not responded to my last email - Idiots.

    I think strongly worded follow up email giving them the chance to refund the money or else i'll use direct debit scheme to dispute?

    If nothing from that, email to CEO if I can find his details, end correspondence through email with ARVAL and open BVRLA complaint.

    What do you guys think?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Oct 16, 11:36 AM
    • 40,525 Posts
    • 52,411 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I think you need to put this into dispute IMMEDIATELY with your bank.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • andyspeake
    • By andyspeake 17th Oct 16, 12:07 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    andyspeake
    Hmmm okay, interesting, they literally just emailed back:
    Thank you for your email.

    I have spoken to my manager, to avoid this happening again, we will refund the parking charge notice of £60.00 plus the administration fee if you change your policy to Transfer Liability.

    I have attached the Change of Address form, once this has been completed and scanned back to us, we will amend your policy and refund the charges.


    Going by that i'm assuming they want me to pay the transfer of liability policy change charge! They are ridiculous!!
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 17th Oct 16, 12:16 PM
    • 5,394 Posts
    • 4,930 Thanks
    pappa golf
    tell them no you decline their offer and suggest they update them selves on the law and BVRLA guidelines , if you have not received a refund within 14 days you will contact the BVRLA and ask them to offer a dispute resolution


    although "To enable you to do this, we would amend the policy to ‘Change of Address’ which means that instead of paying penalty charge notices (PCN’s) - we will send a copy of the customer contract to the issuer, who will redirect the notice directly for payment or appeal. The administration fee for this process is £12.50 + VAT per penalty charge"


    is a small figure for their admin services


    perhaps you should contact BVRLA and ask them if that figure has been agreed with them , or should the do it Free of charge
    Last edited by pappa golf; 17-10-2016 at 12:18 PM.
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • andyspeake
    • By andyspeake 17th Oct 16, 3:07 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    andyspeake
    Ok, so they've confirmed they will not charge me to change the policy but should I get another PCN they will charge me the £12.50 for future PCN's.

    I suppose this is a win for me, i'll get my refund and I'll just agree to the change in policy. Not really got the time and motivation to fight it anymore so I think i'll settle for that!
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 17th Oct 16, 6:34 PM
    • 5,394 Posts
    • 4,930 Thanks
    pappa golf
    actually , £12.50 is a lot less than a letter from the bank , or a simple change on car insurance , I think its ok , as you will fight the PPCs and if they set put in court , you win and reclaim your £12.50
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
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