Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • superchargednut
    • By superchargednut 11th Oct 16, 7:58 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 2Thanks
    superchargednut
    LBCCC options (ParkingEye, Leeds Aire Street)
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 16, 7:58 PM
    LBCCC options (ParkingEye, Leeds Aire Street) 11th Oct 16 at 7:58 PM
    Hi all,

    I have received a LBCCC notice, dated 4th October - so I guess I have a couple of days to work out how to proceed, in order to get a response sent back in time.

    Basically, last November I entered a car park and stayed for 17 minutes. It was tea time and dark, and I got out to go and pay but for whatever reason I couldn't (incorrect change, whatever). I got back into the car, attempted to find a way to pay, couldn't, so left.

    I got the £100 fine from ParkingEye, and sent them an appeal. It was rejected and I was given a POPLA code.

    I attempted to appeal to POPLA and was rejected again. I can't remember the basis of my appeals as these were both about 8-9 months ago, but I used the advice from forums like this.

    Which brings me to now and my LBCCC. I've had a bit of a browse and as far as I can tell I have three options:

    1. Attempt to have the charge quashed by the landowner. The car park is not adjacent to a supermarket or anything and as such I have absolutely no idea how to find out who the landowner is. I can find the car park on Google Maps but I do not know the exact address or postcode. 'Aire Street, Leeds' is all I have.

    2. Offer to settle with ParkingEye without prejudice. Paying £100 because I sat in a car park for 17 minutes is absolutely ridiculous. Ideally, I don't want to be locked into months and months of back and forth contact with ParkingEye - and as such I am prepared to offer them an amount to settle this. Given the length of the stay, what would be a suitable amount to offer and how would I go about this in order to have the best chance of success?

    3. The big, long, correspondence battle. This is the one I didn't want to do as it looks long-winded and likely to last a long time. However, if there's no chance of either of the above, then I will do it. For this option, I'd like to know, as clearly as possible, what the first step is in replying to my LBCCC. Obviously I have a few days to do this step and would prefer to get it done and think about the next step after that.

    Thanks for reading guys and hoping someone can help.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Oct 16, 7:59 PM
    • 40,525 Posts
    • 52,418 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 16, 7:59 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 16, 7:59 PM
    I think (3) but be aware this won't just be correspondence, it will be a court claim to defend.

    If you go for settlement the best you are likely to get is £40 - £60 if they will...
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • superchargednut
    • By superchargednut 11th Oct 16, 8:05 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    superchargednut
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 16, 8:05 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 16, 8:05 PM
    I'd be happy to offer 40/50/60 I think.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Oct 16, 8:08 PM
    • 40,525 Posts
    • 52,418 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 16, 8:08 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 16, 8:08 PM
    Start at £45 maybe...email them like here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5539549

    Head the subject line 'Without prejudice, save as to costs - offer and response re PCN ref xxxxxx/xxxxxx'
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • superchargednut
    • By superchargednut 11th Oct 16, 8:28 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    superchargednut
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 16, 8:28 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 16, 8:28 PM
    If I do this, do I still have to reply to the LBCCC acknowledging my receipt of it?

    Also, if they turn down my offer can I still proceed as usual with option 3?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Oct 16, 8:36 PM
    • 40,525 Posts
    • 52,418 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 16, 8:36 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 16, 8:36 PM
    Yes and yes. Your offer (if rushing to make one now, which you do not have to) needs to combine a response to the LBCCC, like in the other thread exactly the same right now that I've replied on both.

    But you do not have to come out with an offer yet, you could email a response to the LBCCC asking questions/ask for a copy of the contract sign and PCN, and asking them to put the case on hold (like I told the other poster). Then decide when you get their response.

    In fact you have grounds for defence (dark signs, no contract agreed, 17 minutes is a reasonable grace period in the dark, etc). Seems to me in your case, you have good reason to consider defending a claim and fighting it - a Red Letter Day experience!

    Oh, and do not reply to any private message from a poster with less than 1000 posts to their name here. We deal with these issues openly on the forum and any pm could be from anyone at all (even the parking firm) and any private message about this is not recommended to be replied to/read.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 11-10-2016 at 9:14 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Elysander
    • By Elysander 11th Oct 16, 9:12 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    Elysander
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 16, 9:12 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 16, 9:12 PM
    In answer to OP's point 1, I have included a link below from Leeds City Council's website which gives details of a recent application Parking Eye made regarding retrospective planning permission (August 2016) for signage etc at Aire Street. From reading the application document dated 8th August 2016, it would appear that the landowner is Bellavale Ltd 32 Gallowgate Newcastle Upon Tyne.

    Parking Eye always include a poor scan of the 'contract' at POPLA stage which is with a company called Elite Parking who presumably lease the site from Bellavale. PE have repeatedly lost cases at POPLA as assessors aren't able to read the 'contract'

    .
    https://publicaccess.leeds.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?previousCaseType=Property&pr eviousKeyVal=LCEDNYJB05B00&activeTab=summary&previ ousCaseUprn=000072695902&previousCaseNumber=LCEDNK JB05B00&keyVal=OBDW36JBIVW00
    Last edited by Elysander; 12-10-2016 at 9:31 AM. Reason: .
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Oct 16, 10:08 PM
    • 11,009 Posts
    • 16,438 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 16, 10:08 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 16, 10:08 PM
    I wasn't aware that retrospective application for advertising consent was allowable. Not having advertising consent, as I understand it, is a criminal offence. Period!

    If you're up to it, challenge the LA on this. Then if you're stonewalled, involve the LA Ombudsman.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • superchargednut
    • By superchargednut 12th Oct 16, 11:34 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    superchargednut
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 16, 11:34 AM
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 16, 11:34 AM
    Start at £45 maybe...email them
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    On the ParkingEye website, the only way of contacting them is to fill in a form headed 'make an appeal'.

    Is there an alternative email address I can use or shall I do so through this form?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Oct 16, 11:44 AM
    • 11,009 Posts
    • 16,438 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Try this:

    enforcement@parkingeye.co.uk
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Oct 16, 11:49 AM
    • 40,525 Posts
    • 52,418 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    On the ParkingEye website, the only way of contacting them is to fill in a form headed 'make an appeal'.

    Is there an alternative email address I can use or shall I do so through this form?
    Originally posted by superchargednut
    I gave you that exact email addy by showing you the other thread like yours...I thought the instruction 'email them like here' didn't require me to type the email addy out! When links are supplied they are there to assist.

    Start at £45 maybe...email them like here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5539549

    Head the subject line 'Without prejudice, save as to costs - offer and response re PCN ref xxxxxx/xxxxxx'
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • superchargednut
    • By superchargednut 12th Oct 16, 11:50 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    superchargednut
    My apologies, I've seen this now.
    • superchargednut
    • By superchargednut 12th Oct 16, 4:06 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    superchargednut
    I have emailed PE with my offer so now must turn my attention to acknowledging their LBCCC.

    Below is an example of a response, however I am aware it is from 2013 and therefore could potentially be obsolete now.

    Apologies if you feel I am asking obvious questions but I find the amount of information on the forum rather overwhelming.

    Thanks for your continued help.

    ParkingEye Ltd
    Legal Department

    Address

    Date

    For the personal attention of [Text removed by MSE Forum Team] (Supervising Solicitor)

    Dear [Text removed by MSE Forum Team]

    ParkingEye Ltd v [Name]
    Proposed Legal Proceedings


    Thank you for your letter of [insert date].

    First, the alleged debt is disputed and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.

    Secondly, despite the wholly inaccurate statement that the letter is 'fully compliant with the Practice Direction' it is in fact woefully defective and appears to be a deliberate attempt to mislead the recipient.

    Please therefore provide a Letter Before Claim which complies with the requirements of Annex A Para 2 of the Practice Direction on Pre-action Conduct:

    URL

    I confirm that I shall then seek advice and submit a formal Response within 30 days of receipt, as required by the Practice Direction.

    Please ensure that someone does actually read and respond to this letter, providing the specific information relating to the county court claim that your client intends to make against myself as the defendant to the proposed legal proceedings. Please DO NOT send a generic FAQ letter in reply as to do so does not meet the requirements of the Practice Direction and will take this matter no further forward.

    Please note, a refusal to comply with the Practice Direction will result in an immediate referral to the Solicitors Regulation Authority for breach of the Principles contained in the SRA Handbook version 8, published on 1st October 2013.

    I trust this will not be necessary, and look forward to receiving a fully compliant letter before claim in due course.

    Yours faithfully

    PRINT NAME (sign with a squiggle.)
    • DollyDee
    • By DollyDee 12th Oct 16, 4:10 PM
    • 623 Posts
    • 639 Thanks
    DollyDee
    In answer to OP's point 1, I have included a link below from Leeds City Council's website which gives details of a recent application Parking Eye made regarding retrospective planning permission (August 2016) for signage etc at Aire Street. From reading the application document dated 8th August 2016, it would appear that the landowner is Bellavale Ltd 32 Gallowgate Newcastle Upon Tyne.

    Parking Eye always include a poor scan of the 'contract' at POPLA stage which is with a company called Elite Parking who presumably lease the site from Bellavale. PE have repeatedly lost cases at POPLA as assessors aren't able to read the 'contract'

    .
    https://publicaccess.leeds.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?previousCaseType=Property&pr eviousKeyVal=LCEDNYJB05B00&activeTab=summary&previ ousCaseUprn=000072695902&previousCaseNumber=LCEDNK JB05B00&keyVal=OBDW36JBIVW00
    Originally posted by Elysander
    Don't know if this is important or not but Bellavale Ltd changed their name to ES City Square Ltd on 21st July 2016. Pretty sure it's the correct company as there was a Charge on land "7 Wellington Street, Leeds, LS1".

    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/NI609066/filing-history

    Some of the "People" are the same as the company quoted by Elysander
    http://www.checkcompany.co.uk/company/NI609066/BELLAVALE-LIMITED

    ETA: Just thought, I didn't actually download any of the planning application documents so I may be wrong.
    Last edited by DollyDee; 12-10-2016 at 4:27 PM.
    • superchargednut
    • By superchargednut 13th Oct 16, 10:36 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    superchargednut
    I got the following reply from them:

    Unfortunately you have contacted the wrong company, we are a building contractor based in Central London with no sites north of London.

    Kind Regards,

    Mr Davies
    Accounts Assistant | City Sq.
    Last edited by superchargednut; 13-10-2016 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Name was confidential
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Oct 16, 11:00 AM
    • 5,561 Posts
    • 4,272 Thanks
    The Deep

    Head the subject line 'Without prejudice, save as to costs - offer and response re PCN ref xxxxxx/xxxxxx'
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Unnecessary imo, read this

    http://www.tresscox.com.au/page/our-news/newsflash/the-use-or-misuse-of-the-term-without-prejudice-in-correspondence/
    • superchargednut
    • By superchargednut 8th Nov 16, 3:19 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    superchargednut
    Good afternoon folks,

    I received a response from ParkingEye. Firstly, they rejected my offer of £45 and insist the total sim of £100 remains due.

    Their response indicates that they are 'confident we have provided you with sufficient information' and are awaiting my formal response to the LBCCC.

    Could you advise on next steps, I am nearing the point where I pay to make it go away but would of course prefer not to do that.
    • Carthesis
    • By Carthesis 8th Nov 16, 4:17 PM
    • 461 Posts
    • 805 Thanks
    Carthesis
    Bargepole thread: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5546325

    PePiPoo thread "covering all bases" defence: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=98775

    All lifted from the **NEWBIES** thread under "Letter Before Claim"
    • Elysander
    • By Elysander 8th Nov 16, 9:59 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 96 Thanks
    Elysander
    Good afternoon folks,

    I received a response from ParkingEye. Firstly, they rejected my offer of £45 and insist the total sim of £100 remains due.

    Their response indicates that they are 'confident we have provided you with sufficient information' and are awaiting my formal response to the LBCCC.

    Could you advise on next steps, I am nearing the point where I pay to make it go away but would of course prefer not to do that.
    Originally posted by superchargednut

    Bellavale Ltd are listed as the landowners on Parking Eye's retrospective application for advertising consent to Leeds council, though the company's name was changed to ES City Square Ltd in July of this year (thanks to DollyDee for the name change info) The planning application gave an address for Bellavale as 32 Gallowgate Newcastle Upon Tyne. There are two companies listed at this address who have the same directors as ES City Square. These two companies are:

    ES Gateshead Ltd
    ES North Street Ltd

    You could try directory enquiries for a phone number for either of these two companies, then call them to find out who you need to make contact with.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Nov 16, 10:39 PM
    • 40,525 Posts
    • 52,418 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Good afternoon folks,

    I received a response from ParkingEye. Firstly, they rejected my offer of £45 and insist the total sim of £100 remains due.

    Their response indicates that they are 'confident we have provided you with sufficient information' and are awaiting my formal response to the LBCCC.

    Could you advise on next steps, I am nearing the point where I pay to make it go away but would of course prefer not to do that.
    Originally posted by superchargednut
    Well you said this:
    Basically, last November I entered a car park and stayed for 17 minutes. It was tea time and dark, and I got out to go and pay but for whatever reason I couldn't (incorrect change, whatever). I got back into the car, attempted to find a way to pay, couldn't, so left.
    So it sounds defendable to me. Not the same as the Beavis case.

    It was pitch black with faulty machines so you did your best to make payment then gave up within a reasonable few minutes of effort. Also we know the Aire Street machines cause people problems all the time, look at marganne's thread, for example.

    Don't blame yourself, this is a fault of their dodgy machine so stick with that defence if they should issue court papers (may as well defend, it's not a huge risk and worst case scenario if you lose would be to pay about £150 instead of £100, no CCJ, no solicitor's costs, nowt bad).

    Here is a defence (you are not at this stage yet!) written by bargepole for a specific issue of a faulty machine (Claimant was not Parking Eye so this cannot be copied verbatim but shows you the argument to make about making every effort to comply with the instructions:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/dykc9qeqd271y7p/PCG_Defence1.docx?dl=0

    This was the case in question:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5340304

    but although the defence was specific to a faulty P&D machines (like you had) it differs because that was an IPC firm and the person stayed - your case is better for you because you left, did not accept a contract. Did not park.

    I would respond formally to the LBCCC and use bargepole's point #5 from that example defence, put that into your letter, show us how it looks (obviously you'll need to add an introduction and an ending for the letter).

    The Parking Prankster might have other evidence of Aire Street machine issues.

    You should also mention in your letter the claim number, date and Judge's name from the Appeal court case of Jopson as posted yesterday in this forum, stating these words (deliberately chosen) please use this wording as well, in your letter:

    The Senior Circuit Judge in his ruling provides much needed clarity to motorists and the parking industry as a whole and confirms the common sense view - and now a persuasive opinion - that parking charges can only relate to actual 'parking', where a contract has been agreed. A faulty machine causing motorists to struggle and then give up and leave without being able to pay and decide to stay, is not something that can fairly give rise to a parking charge of £100 and indeed it would be unconscionable. The driver left after making every effort to use your faulty Aire Street machines.

    Leaving the car park without accepting the contract is exactly what the BPA advises motorists to do in their 'Know Your Parking Rights' webpage, as ParkingEye are well aware. The machine caused the issue. This situation was tested at Port Talbot Court on 19-10-2016 in case C1GF37H7: Link Parking v Mr N as blogged here:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/link-parking-youve-been-gladstoned.html

    In a hearing which lasted around 30 minutes, Mr N explained that he attempted to pay but the machines were not working. The Claimant's legal representative argued he should therefore have left the car park. The judge ruled that 'frustration of contract' applied and that Mr N had attempted to fulfil his contractual obligations but could not because of the broken machine. The claim was dismissed.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 08-11-2016 at 10:44 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

1,852Posts Today

6,200Users online

Martin's Twitter