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  • FIRST POST
    • AlexTodd97
    • By AlexTodd97 11th Oct 16, 2:32 PM
    • 14Posts
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    AlexTodd97
    F1rst Parking PCN - Winchester University
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 16, 2:32 PM
    F1rst Parking PCN - Winchester University 11th Oct 16 at 2:32 PM
    Hi All,

    Yesterday I came back to my car and i had received a PCN from "F1rst Parking" at Winchester University.
    I am posting on this forum as I have not found any similar experiences, and was hoping someone could let me know their thoughts on how to go about this.
    The reason for the parking ticket was for "Causing obstruction". I parked in a space, but on top of the white line, as there was not an official space next to me (half a space on the end which a car wouldn't fit in). I believe this is why i have been ticketed. I dispute I have caused obstruction, as I was just trying to give more space to the car parked next to me.

    With this in mind, I think this is completely irrelevant as the sign states a PCN may be issued for failing to display a valid permit. It does not mention parking within any white lines (there are hardly any white lines indicating spaces on the campus anyway).

    I am planning to appeal, but was wondering if anyone has dealt with circumstances such as these? I believe they operate at universities mainly.

    Happy to post the evidence if anyone wants to make their judgement based on that.

    Many thanks.
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Oct 16, 3:21 PM
    • 11,030 Posts
    • 16,476 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 16, 3:21 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 16, 3:21 PM
    Please read the newbies FAQ sticky, located near the top of the forum thread list, one page back from here. It's very comprehensive, but you only need to read post #1 (and #2 if you need an acronym explained) at this stage. Be very aware of the timing you need to send in your initial appeal (around day 26), so don't rush this. F1rst Parking are a BPA operator.

    Go and take photographs of the signage as this will be very helpful to you in winning your case.

    Have you complained to the Uni?
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • AlexTodd97
    • By AlexTodd97 11th Oct 16, 3:43 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    AlexTodd97
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 16, 3:43 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 16, 3:43 PM
    The uni parking office operate a "self ticketing" system, so it was someone from the parking office who issued the PCN.

    Do all T&C's need to be displayed on the signage? If so, surely they can't issue a PCN for something not mentioned.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Oct 16, 3:48 PM
    • 11,030 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 16, 3:48 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 16, 3:48 PM
    The uni parking office operate a "self ticketing" system, so it was someone from the parking office who issued the PCN.

    Do all T&C's need to be displayed on the signage? If so, surely they can't issue a PCN for something not mentioned.
    Originally posted by AlexTodd97
    Whether they can or not is rather academic - they have! So you need to get on with fighting this. Hence the advice to get photographs of the signage - now (you never know if/when they might change their signage).

    Indignation won't get this cancelled.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • AlexTodd97
    • By AlexTodd97 11th Oct 16, 4:17 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    AlexTodd97
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 16, 4:17 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 16, 4:17 PM
    I have photos of the the signage displayed and my car as soon as I saw the ticket.
    I have tried to post it below. Please let me know if this helps.
    Remove the * from the link.

    [IMG]http://*imgur.com/i0Qu3jh[/IMG]
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 11th Oct 16, 5:12 PM
    • 5,446 Posts
    • 4,968 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 16, 5:12 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 16, 5:12 PM
    actually the signage does not mention being badly parked or even that you will get a ticket for parking sideways across 2 bays , the signage states that a PERMIT must be on dispay otherwise a ticket


    so whats the charge?







    http://imgur.com/i0Qu3jh


    standard BPA template appeal , get a POPLa code , then present that Photo to popla and ask them if First can issue a charge for any offence inc parking a pink car on a Wednesday afternoon?


    cut and dry , you did not break any of the rules that they posted on their signage




    I bet they don,t bother with Popla
    Last edited by pappa golf; 11-10-2016 at 5:17 PM.
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • AlexTodd97
    • By AlexTodd97 11th Oct 16, 5:18 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    AlexTodd97
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 16, 5:18 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 16, 5:18 PM
    That was my perception when first reading the signage.
    The charge is £60, reduced to £30 if I pay within 14 days.
    I can't see how an argument can be made that I have broken any terms and conditions.

    Thanks for your help.
    Last edited by AlexTodd97; 11-10-2016 at 5:19 PM. Reason: new post
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 11th Oct 16, 5:23 PM
    • 5,446 Posts
    • 4,968 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 16, 5:23 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 16, 5:23 PM
    yes , std BPA template letter from here http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822 the one in blue , don't add or amend it , they either fold or give you a POPLa code


    you were the registered KEEPER NOT the driver at the time


    they are not known for court http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/First_Parking_LLP.html




    I can't see how an argument can be made that I have broken any terms and conditions.


    you hav,nt , fold or POPLa were they will back down or be made to look idiots
    Last edited by pappa golf; 11-10-2016 at 5:25 PM.
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • AlexTodd97
    • By AlexTodd97 11th Oct 16, 5:33 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    AlexTodd97
    • #9
    • 11th Oct 16, 5:33 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Oct 16, 5:33 PM
    Thank you very much!
    Just one question regarding the template below. It goes down the route of sign "large lettering". Does this apply in my case?

    Also just for an FYI, this is how I parked.

    [IMG]http://*imgur.com/OKBF7i0[/IMG]

    Date


    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car and I will complain to the landowner about the matter if it is not cancelled.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers before they park.

    Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. I believe the driver may well be eligible for cancellation and you have omitted clear information about the process for complaints including a geographical address of the landowner.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 11th Oct 16, 5:45 PM
    • 5,446 Posts
    • 4,968 Thanks
    pappa golf
    yup , hit them with everything on that template , to say that one of the directors of first owns a sign company , I would say those signs are pathetic and do not list alternate reasons for getting a ticket , therefore they are unclear


    let them learn by their mistakes at POPLa
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • AlexTodd97
    • By AlexTodd97 11th Oct 16, 6:02 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    AlexTodd97
    Brilliant, I will appeal in the next few days, unless that is too early.
    The online form requires specific information. Should I be concerned about providing my address to F1rst? I will link the photo to make it clear.

    [IMG]http://*imgur.com/7wXzlwR[/IMG]
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Oct 16, 6:05 PM
    • 40,629 Posts
    • 52,498 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Name and address of the keeper is certainly needed. just do not say who was driving.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Oct 16, 6:37 PM
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    • 16,476 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Brilliant, I will appeal in the next few days, unless that is too early.
    Don't 'bolt' too early - read the newbies FAQ sticky about getting your timing right. 26 days if the PPC's appeal process is via electronic communication, around day 23 if it's snail mail (with free Cert of Posting from your PO counter).

    Make sure you follow the PPC process as detailed on the ticket, so you don't give them the opportunity to ignore the appeal based on not following their process, then you'll have an uphill struggle to get a POPLA code, exposing you to up to 6 years of hassle from them.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • AlexTodd97
    • By AlexTodd97 17th Oct 16, 5:19 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    AlexTodd97
    Another week, another PCN.
    Today I received another ticket for reason "Not paid for the full duration of stay".
    I had a permit on the way and was told to store the confirmation email in my screen, which I did and they have evidenced. Something to note straight away is the signage they have used for evidence.
    This states they will issue a PCN for not displaying a valid permit. They did not give me the PCN for this reason. It also doesn't mention paying on their signage they used as evidence.
    See Signage here : [IMG]http://*imgur.com/cQSQDuu[/IMG] - remove the *

    My question is really whether I can/should use the same template appeal so the first PCN (see above). Would I get away with that?

    Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Oct 16, 9:06 PM
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    • 52,498 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes indeedy. But as ever, wait till day 23 if posting an appeal or day 26/27 if submitting it electronically.

    They are useless aren't they?!

    Not only does the sign only cover permits and nothing else, so no charge can arise from other parking behaviour, but if 'the driver' was told by the principal (landowner, the Uni?) to show the confirmation email in the windscreen, then a defence of 'promissory estoppel' applies.

    Google it while you are waiting from your rejection letters. Can you email the University permit issuers and ask for them to confirm that they did tell you that any driver of your car (be vague, never say who parked, it could have been me!) should simply display the email which would be acceptable in lieu of a permit, as a temporary authorisation?

    I would get that if you can - very useful if in writing. No phone calls.

    Do not say who was driving if a letter arrives begging to be told.

    Start researching POPLA appeal points by searching 'F1rst POPLA' but only read 2016 examples. There are also some deliberately long and detailed POPLA 'template' appeal points added in September in 'POPLA Decisions'.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • AlexTodd97
    • By AlexTodd97 19th Oct 16, 2:45 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    AlexTodd97
    I have got an email now confirming that they gave me temp authorisation to park using the confirmation email.

    "Hi Alex, The approval email is enough to allow you to park on site in the manner outlined in the Parking Regulations i.e. inside a white lined bay etc."

    Having looked at the university parking guidelines, it does state something along the lines of this, regarding parking within the white lines.

    Does this hold any weight in my case, even though the signs do not state anything like this?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Oct 16, 3:13 PM
    • 40,629 Posts
    • 52,498 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would keep that back - not as useful as it could be - as it only says 'if parked within white lines'.

    If you were 'on top' of a white line I'd say that's not OUTSIDE of a bay anyway.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • AlexTodd97
    • By AlexTodd97 19th Oct 16, 3:22 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    AlexTodd97
    Thank you,

    So do the university "Guidelines" act as "terms and conditions"?
    Because as you know, the signage only claims a PCN will be issued for not displaying a valid permit.
    Trying to understand, if for instance it goes to POPLA, they will claim i have gone against the university parking guidelines, instead of the car park signage.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Oct 16, 3:37 PM
    • 11,030 Posts
    • 16,476 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Parking signage terms and conditions form the basis of any 'contract'. If a total stranger rocked up and parked there, it would only be the signage they would have access to, not some hidden in-house guidelines.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Oct 16, 5:30 PM
    • 40,629 Posts
    • 52,498 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Thank you,

    So do the university "Guidelines" act as "terms and conditions"?
    Because as you know, the signage only claims a PCN will be issued for not displaying a valid permit.
    Trying to understand, if for instance it goes to POPLA, they will claim i have gone against the university parking guidelines, instead of the car park signage.
    Originally posted by AlexTodd97
    The parking firm might try, even more reason to hold that email back and keep it out of the equation. Keep it under your hat completely, might be useful if ever you get another PCN, this time for 'not displaying a permit' when you've instead displayed the authorising email.

    As you say, the signs form the contract and they only talk about a charge arising re permit display. They can't try to bolt on random extra terms after the contract/parking event is concluded.

    I won a case for a friend where the signs only talked about 'permits' and she was penalised by a notorious little firm of ex-clampers, for her Pay & Display ticket slipping. POPLA agreed that the signs only related to permits (she parked right under a sign!) but the POPLA appeal still won because there were no terms creating any other contract term except regarding permits, so no charge arose.

    That POPLA decision is here, with the POPLA code to quote in support of your case too:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=70719279#post70719279

    ''This signage refers to permits and does not mention pay and display tickets. As such, it is reasonable to expect had the appellant seen this signage, she would not be aware that this refers to her, as she was using a pay and display ticket. It appears that this signage only relates to permits.

    From the evidence provided by both the operator and the appellant, the signage in the site is conflicting and unclear.
    I am not satisfied from the evidence provided, that the signage at the location meets the requirements of the British Parking Association’s Code of Practice and as such, the appellant has not been able to see, read and understand the terms and conditions in order to fully comply with them.''
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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