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  • FIRST POST
    • MagicDamo
    • By MagicDamo 10th Oct 16, 1:28 PM
    • 12Posts
    • 11Thanks
    MagicDamo
    UKPC Fine For Leaving Site
    • #1
    • 10th Oct 16, 1:28 PM
    UKPC Fine For Leaving Site 10th Oct 16 at 1:28 PM
    I have just been issued with a parking fine stuck to my windscreen for leaving the site. I was parked at a shopping complex entered a store where I looked around for 20 minutes then I went to a neighbouring shop off of the complex then went back to the first store made a purchase for which I have the receipt then went back to my car where I found the penalty notice stuck to my windscreen. I have read the newbies guide but I wondered if someone can help answer a few questions.

    I understand that I should wait for the Notice To Keeper. If I wanted to look at the evidence photos in the meantime. Will they know that I have accessed the photos before receiving the NTK so is it advisable not to?

    If they have photo evidence of me leaving the site do I still have grounds for appeal regarding the unfair amount of the fine being £100?

    The notice says that if I appeal within 14 days and the appeal is unsuccessful I will pay the reduced fine of £60. Should I appeal within 14 days whether I receive a NTK or not. I just don't want to pay £100 if appeal is unsuccessful.

    What do you think my chances are of a successful appeal?
Page 1
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 10th Oct 16, 1:47 PM
    • 1,719 Posts
    • 2,368 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #2
    • 10th Oct 16, 1:47 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Oct 16, 1:47 PM
    If you had read the forum you would know this is not a fine, you would also know that this is a money making scam that these muppets try on all the time.

    This type of scam is an uphill struggle for them, I assume as you left site you didn't know it was against the rules, so the signage wasn't up to much either.

    If UKPC have photos of you leaving site which I doubt, then why did their dozy attendant waste time photographing you instead of advising you that you were breaking their rules.

    If you haven't guest there's no bonus for him in that.

    The so called discount is a bribe to get you to cough up with as little cost and effort for them.
    This loathsome company are also well known for doctoring evidence.

    Your appeal will not be successful that is 99% certainty but you should win on other reasons with POPLA, even if you don't this idiots would be unlikely to try this scam in court.
    To quote the words of the great Count Arthur Strong "You Couldn't make it up"
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Oct 16, 1:52 PM
    • 40,470 Posts
    • 52,376 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 10th Oct 16, 1:52 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Oct 16, 1:52 PM
    I understand that I should wait for the Notice To Keeper.
    No, the NEWBIES thread advises appealing as keeper around day 26 after the PCN, online. That's a deliberate delay to try to time them out from even remembering to serve any NTK.

    If I wanted to look at the evidence photos in the meantime. Will they know that I have accessed the photos before receiving the NTK so is it advisable not to?
    You can certainly look at the UKPC photos, I always do as early as possible. Makes no difference and the unclear signs will look nice and blurry in their site photo, so take a screenshot ready for your POPLA appeal section on 'unclear signs'. UKPC photos really help illustrate your point!

    If they have photo evidence of me leaving the site do I still have grounds for appeal
    They will not have this, they never have evidence of 'leaving the site' and nor do they have access to CCTV.

    What do you think my chances are of a successful appeal?
    Pretty high at POPLA as they will not be able to show the contravention occurred, and that will be your first appeal point at that stage, plus 4 or 5 other standard ones shown in 'POPLA Decisions' (top thread) penultimate page right now.

    Do not worry about the 14 days, it means nothing, If we thought you should rush to appeal or have an eye on the bribe, the NEWBIES thread would say so. It doesn't! So diarise day 26 and use the template in the NEWBIES thread then, choosing 'registered keeper' on UKPC's drop-down menu (as long as you are the car's keeper on the V5).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 10-10-2016 at 1:54 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 10th Oct 16, 1:59 PM
    • 4,072 Posts
    • 3,553 Thanks
    Herzlos
    • #4
    • 10th Oct 16, 1:59 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Oct 16, 1:59 PM
    What do you think my chances are of a successful appeal?
    Originally posted by MagicDamo
    To UKPC, your appeal chances are essentially nil, because they aren't interested in your appeal, just your cash. It's just a big deal, just be prepared for it.

    To POPLA, your appeal chances are pretty high, because they (usually) base it on the legalities.
    • MagicDamo
    • By MagicDamo 10th Oct 16, 2:31 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    MagicDamo
    • #5
    • 10th Oct 16, 2:31 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Oct 16, 2:31 PM
    Thank you for all the responses it's much appreciated, I have just checked the photo evidence. On the photo of the sign, the only condition that can be clearly read on entrance to the car park and from my car is that there is a 2 hour maximum stay, the much smaller writing is blurred so cannot be read from the photo but I didn't think to check the small writing when I parked there I would have had to have gone right up the sign to have been able to read it, there was nothing visible from my car which stated that I couldn't leave the site. There are no pictures of me off site or leaving the site, therefore there is no evidence that this occurred. There is no evidence that I was the driver either so as far as I am concerned I am just the registered keeper in this matter. I will go through the motions as explained in the very useful guides.
    • peter_the_piper
    • By peter_the_piper 10th Oct 16, 2:35 PM
    • 24,268 Posts
    • 29,926 Thanks
    peter_the_piper
    • #6
    • 10th Oct 16, 2:35 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Oct 16, 2:35 PM
    I would suggest a modification of the original post changing ""I"" to the car etc. remove identification where possible, they trawl this site.
    Millies due back at Christmas.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 10th Oct 16, 2:37 PM
    • 2,242 Posts
    • 2,724 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    • #7
    • 10th Oct 16, 2:37 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Oct 16, 2:37 PM
    have you been back to the shop to complain ?

    threaten to take back what you bought as it is now to expensive ....

    do not speak to customer services ... only the manager .... if he/she will not help try head office / CEO

    do this while following the good advice above ...

    good luck

    Ralph
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Oct 16, 2:46 PM
    • 5,561 Posts
    • 4,272 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 16, 2:46 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 16, 2:46 PM
    If it goes to PoPLA quote Ibbotson. mitigation of loss


    http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Browse?s=Price%3A+High+-+Low&storeId=10151&catalogId=25051&langId=110&c_1= 1%7Ccategory_root%7CHome%2Band%2Bgarden%7C33005908 &c_2=2%7C33005908%7CSofas%252C%2Barmchairs%2Band%2 Bchairs%7C33008988&c_3=3%7Ccat_33008988%7CSofa%2Bb eds%252C%2Bchairbeds%2Band%2Bfutons%7C33016631&r_0 01=1%7CAccessories3DTV+Glasses-Type%7CSofa+beds%7C1&authToken=
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Oct 16, 3:14 PM
    • 10,987 Posts
    • 16,390 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 10th Oct 16, 3:14 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Oct 16, 3:14 PM
    Don't know what that link is all about TD? Argos and something about 'glasses'?

    If it was the ibbotson link you were looking for, here it is.

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=16231)

    Do read this OP - it will give you a good understanding about 'leaving the site' issues and how difficult it would be for a PPC to pursue this to court. AFAIAA no PPC has tried a similar court case ever since.

    For TD, this link might help you:

    https://en.specsavers.es/stores/calpe

    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Oct 16, 3:38 PM
    • 40,470 Posts
    • 52,376 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Sea Creature's thread shows a nice long POPLA appeal and my suggested additional point #1(a) and (b) for a 'leaving the site' allegation:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5509170

    That example is a case where UKPC did remember to serve NTK. So don't copy it verbatim at POPLA stage unless that also happens to you.

    If you find you do NOT get one that's even better and will give you a much better shot at the 'no keeper liability' argument (template for a NKL point for POPLA where no NTK was ever served is in POPLA Decisions, posted by me in September).

    Anyway for now, play it as per the NEWBIES thread. No rush, no meaning to the 14 day bribe.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MagicDamo
    • By MagicDamo 11th Oct 16, 12:43 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    MagicDamo
    Thanks very much for the further advice and the links to the similar cases. It's frustrating having to spend the time on this but it will be satisfying once I have a successful appeal.


    If I don't receive a NTK do I then just do nothing, as this would potentially mean that I haven't been informed as the registered keeper of the vehicle and I would be non the wiser about the parking ticket?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Oct 16, 2:44 PM
    • 40,470 Posts
    • 52,376 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No, you appeal BEFORE they could send a NTK. Day 26.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MagicDamo
    • By MagicDamo 30th Oct 16, 7:06 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    MagicDamo
    The time has come for me to send my appeal online. I will use the letter in the Newbies thread. I just have a few questions so that I don't mess up which I would pleased if you would advise me on.

    Should I make any reference to the reason for the fee being that the driver left the site and state that there is no evidence of this?

    Do I still keep in the point about the photos of the parkibg contract etc even though I can access these on their website. I will enclose a copy of the receipt for a purchase the driver made on site as well.

    Do you advise posting the letter or will online be suffice?

    Just making sure there is nothing more to add at this stage.

    Any help will be greatly appreciated.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 30th Oct 16, 7:15 PM
    • 5,381 Posts
    • 4,902 Thanks
    pappa golf
    no , just send the appeals letter in the newbies thread , do not add or amend it
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 30th Oct 16, 7:47 PM
    • 36,455 Posts
    • 73,281 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    The time has come for me to send my appeal online. I will use the letter in the Newbies thread. I just have a few questions so that I don't mess up which I would pleased if you would advise me on.

    Should I make any reference to the reason for the fee being that the driver left the site and state that there is no evidence of this?

    Do I still keep in the point about the photos of the parkibg contract etc even though I can access these on their website. I will enclose a copy of the receipt for a purchase the driver made on site as well.

    Do you advise posting the letter or will online be suffice?

    Just making sure there is nothing more to add at this stage.

    Any help will be greatly appreciated.
    Originally posted by MagicDamo
    As above, send the BPA template in blue, exactly as it is. Send it online if that's what the PCN says. That also means you can leave it as late as possible compared to posting. It will be rejected no matter what you put in it, so copy and paste and send. Take a screenshot when you do.

    The fact that you are asking these questions makes me think you should not add anything as I don't think you have completely grasped everything yet. It takes a while to take it all in so just follow the script and save your energy for PoPLA.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • MagicDamo
    • By MagicDamo 31st Oct 16, 10:59 AM
    • 12 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    MagicDamo
    That's good advice and good to hear as it's not taking too much time for now. Thank you for letting me know.
    • MagicDamo
    • By MagicDamo 9th Nov 16, 5:20 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    MagicDamo
    I have received the following response to my appeal which I thought would be of interest to share. My appeal consisted of the template letter from the Newbies thread. I do happen to have a receipt to prove that the driver used the facilities which I can send to them as they requested, do you suggest I make any other comment at this stage or just send the receipt? Although they say that there were sufficient signs warning drivers that they should not leave the site none of the conditions apart from the 2 hour limit could be read from the car or near where I parked without having to walk right up to one of the boards to read the smaller writing. It sounds like my appeal could be successful if I just send them a receipt unless they are just making it sound hopeful.




    Thank you for your recent correspondence in relation to the above Parking Charge.


    The highest court in the UK, the Supreme Court, has unambiguously confirmed that parking charges issued on private land are fully enforceable. In the case of ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 their Lordships stated that private parking charges were enforceable because they served a legitimate interest and were in the interests of the public generally. The case confirmed that the amount of the charge does not have to reflect any loss that might have been caused by breach of the terms and conditions of parking. All of our signage is fully compliant with the guidelines set out within the BPA Code of Practice and we reject the notion that it is in any way unclear or ambiguous. The contract that UKPC has with the owner or occupier of the land (which authorises UKPC to enter into a contract


    with the driver requiring the payment of Parking Charges in respect of parking of the vehicle on the land) contains a confidentiality clause and as such we are not in a position to provide the contract to you. As a member of the Approved Operator Scheme, UKPC are audited by the British Parking Association to ensure that we have all relevant contracts in place. UKPC will provide the court with a copy of this in full if they require it, or can provide a written statement to this effect from those party to the contract. We are also more than happy to provide confirmation to the independent assessors that we are authorised to manage parking at this site. We can confirm that parking management at this site has been contracted to UK Parking Control Ltd. Paragraph 9(2)(b) of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, states that we must inform the registered keeper that the driver of a vehicle is required to pay the parking charge in full. It also notes that as we do not know the driver’s name or current postal address, the registered keeper, if they were not the driver at the time, should


    inform the operator (i.e. us) of the name and current address of the driver and pass the notice to them. The Act also warns that if, at the end of the period of 28 days (beginning with the day after the Parking Charge is sent), the parking charge has not been paid in full and the operator does not know both the name and current address of the driver, the operator has the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from the registered keeper. This warning is given under Paragraph 9(2)(f) of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and is subject to us complying with the applicable conditions under Schedule 4 of that Act (which we consider we do comply with, to the letter).


    Drivers parking their vehicles and then walking off the site at Vastern Court are registered by our warden and a record of their registration numbers is made on our database.


    There are sufficient signs within this area warning drivers that should they leave their vehicles unattended without permission and without using the facilities that this will result in a Parking Charge being issued. In order to make a final decision regarding your appeal, please can you provide evidence to show you were using the facilities on site to our Appeals Department within 14 days of the date of this letter. Failure to provide this information will give us no alternative other than to make our final decision based on the previous information received, at this stage a POPLA verification code will be provided. Further correspondence can be sent to our postal address below or on our website at. Please can you ensure that your parking charge details are attached when sending further correspondence. The Parking Charge has been on hold whilst under appeal and may be settled in full at the reduced rate of £60.00.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Nov 16, 5:22 PM
    • 40,470 Posts
    • 52,376 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Failure to provide this information will give us no alternative other than to make our final decision based on the previous information received, at this stage a POPLA verification code will be provided.
    Standard begging letter wanting the driver's details! NOPE.

    Sit tight, we see these all the time, no point responding. Wait for your POPLA code.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MagicDamo
    • By MagicDamo 9th Nov 16, 5:43 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    MagicDamo
    They have stated that "In order to make a final decision regarding your appeal, please can you provide evidence to show you were using the facilities on site to our Appeals Department within 14 days of the date of this letter"


    What if I sent a copy of the receipt stating "please find attached the copy of the receipt which proves that the driver was using the facilities on site" I paid in cash for the item so there is no name on the receipt, is it worth a try in case they cancel the charge on this evidence?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Nov 16, 5:51 PM
    • 40,470 Posts
    • 52,376 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Honestly, they will not cancel. But you could do it merely to set the scene for POPLA!

    And you can email them:

    appealmoreinfo@ukparkingcontrol.com

    (always works for me, that email).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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