Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • JD10
    • By JD10 9th Oct 16, 9:11 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 1Thanks
    JD10
    Apcoa PCN for Parking Across Bays
    • #1
    • 9th Oct 16, 9:11 PM
    Apcoa PCN for Parking Across Bays 9th Oct 16 at 9:11 PM
    Hello all,

    To summarise my situation, we parked in Heathrow Airport and were parked in the bay with the front of the car tyres parked on the white bay line. All other sides were well within the bay. We found a Parking Charge Notice on our windscreen with contravention "02. Parking Across Bays" given as reason. It states that £90 is payable within 28 days or £45 if paid within 21 days.

    I sent Apcoa an appeal letter which I drafted using the MSE forum including photos as evidence with "The alleged contravention did not occur" as reason.

    I have received a rejection letter from Apcoa with their photographic evidence and POPLA verification number. They have reiterated their £45 charge if paid within 14 days.

    I am stumped now and unsure what to write in my appeal to POPLA. I have tried searching the forum for successful recent appeals for "parking across bays" but have not found anything.

    Could you please advise me?

    Thanks,

    JD
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Oct 16, 9:18 PM
    • 40,535 Posts
    • 52,426 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 16, 9:18 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 16, 9:18 PM
    Try reading the penultimate page of 'POPLA Decisions' where I've posted some template appeal points you can use. Show us what you gather together - you can use the templates verbatim, that's what they are there for.

    You do not really need anything about 'bay lines' as you will win this on standard legal points and APCOA will probably cancel as long as you didn't say who was driving and cite 'no keeper liability'. I assume you have not been sent a 'Notice to Keeper' at all. That's covered by one of the template POPLA appeal points I wrote three weeks ago, as found towards the end of POPLA Decisions.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • JD10
    • By JD10 9th Oct 16, 9:28 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    JD10
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 16, 9:28 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 16, 9:28 PM
    Thanks Coupon-mad, I'll have a look and gather together all points I can and post a draft here. There was no notice to keeper sent. It's probably worth noting that I'm appealing this on behalf of the keeper. At no point have I stated who the driver was in my original appeal to Apcoa.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Oct 16, 9:34 PM
    • 40,535 Posts
    • 52,426 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 16, 9:34 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 16, 9:34 PM
    You mean you are the keeper?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • JD10
    • By JD10 9th Oct 16, 9:57 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    JD10
    • #5
    • 9th Oct 16, 9:57 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Oct 16, 9:57 PM
    No, the keeper is a friend of mine.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Oct 16, 10:16 PM
    • 40,535 Posts
    • 52,426 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 9th Oct 16, 10:16 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Oct 16, 10:16 PM
    So you need to do the POPLA appeal in his name: 'as him' not on behalf of him. I realise that the POPLA page gives you the question 'are you appealing on behalf of someone else' but I think that complicates matters so I've never gone for that option myself.

    I always fill it in as the person, as if they were typing it, tick 'other' then attach the PDF full appeal.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • JD10
    • By JD10 9th Oct 16, 11:27 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    JD10
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 16, 11:27 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 16, 11:27 PM
    OK, noted thanks. I originally sent the appeal letter to Apcoa 'as him'. They've replied to his name, so all good in this aspect.

    I've put together 3 template points from your posts found on the POPLA Decisions thread and copy pasted it word for word.

    1. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge

    2. No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    3. A compliant Notice to Keeper was never served - no Keeper Liability can apply.

    Question: Should I wait the 56 days before I can hit them with point #3? The PCN is dated 24/09/16 and they received my appeal on 3/10/16. Their reply is dated 4/10/16.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Oct 16, 12:09 AM
    • 40,535 Posts
    • 52,426 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 16, 12:09 AM
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 16, 12:09 AM
    You definitely always need 'unclear signage' because the £90 is always in small print so don't let them off that one. It makes them have to produce pics of signs and maps and they are more likely to give up if you make life hard for them.

    You could also have a first point that the occupants of the car state that the vehicle was not parked outside of a marked bay, merely with one wheel on the white line. No other vehicle was prevented from parking and this was not obstructive in any way, nor outside of a bay. There was no contravention and nothing in this instance that could match the high bar set in the 'complex' case in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis.

    In that case, it was found that charge certainly engaged the 'penalty rule' but (unusually) escaped being held to be unenforceable due to a significant 'legitimate interest' in preventing overstaying in bays where the retail park landowner wanted to have a high turnover of custom.

    No such ''legitimate interest which extended beyond the recovery of any loss'' exists in punishing drivers for a wheel on a white line, causing no commercial problem or loss to the landowner. In fact, that very scenario was discussed at the Supreme Court and the Judges made it clear that a charge for overlapping a white line would not seem fair. The finding was that a contractual clause would be penal if it was a secondary obligation which imposed a detriment on the contract-breaker that was 'unconscionable' and out of all proportion to any legitimate interest. Clearly, to charge in this circumstance is an attempt to penalise an authorised driver using the car park as intended and not overstaying. The Supreme court Judges stated that the purpose of a charge cannot be to punish a consumer. A charge would require a commercial justification to save it from the penalty rule and in this case, there is no such overriding interest in charging more than damages (nothing).

    Question: Should I wait the 56 days before I can hit them with point #3? The PCN is dated 24/09/16 and they received my appeal on 3/10/16. Their reply is dated 4/10/16.
    Your POPLA code is valid for 28 days and a bit (a few days for service!) so aim for day 30 from the rejection letter, it's all you can stretch to safely. You appealed too early by our standards. The NEWBIES thread says wait for over 3 weeks for a reason! Never mind.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 10-10-2016 at 12:17 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • JD10
    • By JD10 2nd Nov 16, 4:33 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    JD10
    • #9
    • 2nd Nov 16, 4:33 PM
    • #9
    • 2nd Nov 16, 4:33 PM
    OK, so i've submitted my POPLA appeal and Apcoa have come back to me today with a very detailed reply. Could someone contact me via PM so I can show you the reply as I'm stumped right now..

    POPLA has given me 7 days from today to reply/comment on the appeal.
    • JD10
    • By JD10 2nd Nov 16, 10:32 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    JD10
    Coupon-mad / Umkomaas, could you please help me? I sent the POPLA appeal with all of the template points found in the POPLA decisions thread. Apcoa have come back with appeal rejection on the following grounds:

    APCOA can confirm that this appeal was rejected as:
    a) This driver does not dispute that designated bays are clearly marked out.
    b) This driver as parked in breach of the terms and conditions, as the vehicle was not parked
    within the bay markings as instructed.
    c) As per the images taken by the attendant, there was sufficient space behind the vehicle for it
    to have been parked wholly within the bay as instructed.
    d) Should the driver have been unable to park within the bay markings for any given reasons
    (not given upon appeal), it is the responsibly of the driver to find a suitable alternative.
    The driver could have parked in the adjacent bay in which he was parked across.
    e) As per the images taken by the attendant, there was sufficient space behind the vehicle for it
    to have been parked wholly within the bay as instructed.
    An appeal is now made to POPLA
    This appeal sates POFA and keeper liability; however the driver was already identified at the first
    point of appeal where the notice was issued to the windscreen and the driver in receipt wrote to
    APCOA stating “You issued me with a parking ticket”.
    The driver received the notice and willing provided his details; thus a notice to Keeper not being
    issued.
    Please be advised that APCOA do not work, issue or seek payment under POFA. Heathrow Airport is
    private land covered by Bye-laws.

    I realise that my wording was not very good in my inital appeal to Apcoa but I have still never stated that I was the driver.

    Could you please advise? If you PM me, I can send you a copy of their PDF reply so you can see the whole appeal.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 3rd Nov 16, 8:24 AM
    • 9,485 Posts
    • 8,256 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    Can you post the photograph alleging that you contravened?
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 3rd Nov 16, 9:30 AM
    • 3,097 Posts
    • 4,387 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    There was no contravention and nothing in this instance that could match the high bar set in the 'complex' case in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Beavis also does not normally apply in pay-per-hour/day car parks, as the Court of Appeal ruled:
    46. The terms of use of the car park need, therefore, to provide a disincentive to drivers which will make them tend to comply with the two hour limit. That is afforded by the parking charge of £85. It would not be afforded by a system of imposing a rate per hour according to the time overstayed, unless that rate were also substantial, and well above what might be regarded as a market rate for the elapsed time, even if the market rate were in some way adjusted to take account of the benefit to the driver of the first two hours being free.
    47. It seems to me that the principles underlying the doctrine of penalty ought not to strike down a provision of this kind, in relation to a contract such as we are concerned with, merely on the basis that the contractual provision is a disincentive, or deterrent, against overstaying. When the court is considering an ordinary financial or commercial contract, then it is understandable that the law, which lays down its own rules as to the compensation due from a contract breaker to the innocent party, should prohibit terms which require the payment of compensation going far beyond that which the law allows in the absence of any contract provision governing this outcome. The classic and simple case is that referred to by Tindal CJ in Kemble v Farren (1829) 6 Bing. 141 at 148: “But that a very large sum should become immediately payable, in consequence of the non-payment of a very small sum, and that the former should not be considered a penalty, appears to be a contradiction in terms, the case being precisely that in which courts of equity have always relieved, and against which courts of law have, in modern times, endeavoured to relieve, by directing juries to assess the real damages sustained by the breach of the agreement.”
    However, note the bit underlined. Parking at Heathrow is very expensive (I've just paid over £100 for a week's parking there), so they may argue that the "rate" is substantial, making their charge "reasonable".
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

4,712Posts Today

7,862Users online

Martin's Twitter