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  • FIRST POST
    • S G
    • By S G 9th Oct 16, 8:41 AM
    • 6Posts
    • 5Thanks
    S G
    Parking ticket in Botanical Gardens
    • #1
    • 9th Oct 16, 8:41 AM
    Parking ticket in Botanical Gardens 9th Oct 16 at 8:41 AM
    Hi,

    I was a member of Botanical Garden in Birmingham for years back in 2011-2014. They have a car park that members used to park for free. During the last year of membership they added this Parking system that members need to enter the vehicle registration number at the entrance or will be fined. I did it every time until one day my kid ran inside and I forgot. We received a £60 parking ticket from Civil Enforcement Ltd with pictures of our car... I appealed and told them that I was a member there but they didn't accept then I complained to the Gardens and I didn't hear anything assuming it has been resolved.
    Last week after 3 years we received a letter that we should pay £140 or they send it to the court!
    I wrote to the Botanical Gardens saying this ticket is unfair as it was an authorised parking but they haven't replied back. Can anyone help please.
    Thanks
    Last edited by S G; 09-10-2016 at 9:12 AM.
Page 1
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 9th Oct 16, 8:46 AM
    • 991 Posts
    • 1,734 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 16, 8:46 AM
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 16, 8:46 AM
    Seems to be a hot spot for CEL. CEL specialise in undefended claims so wait to see whatever other paperwork comes you way.

    Keep all your correspondence as well. Assume you have evidence of a) being a member at the time and b) details of the free parking for members.
    General Election coming up? Your MP worried about his/her job? Give them something to do and get them to sort out these parking cowboys. Search "Theyworkforyou" for the name of your MP.
    • S G
    • By S G 9th Oct 16, 9:24 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    S G
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 16, 9:24 AM
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 16, 9:24 AM
    Thanks for the reply. the parking in reality is free for members for 12 hours but it has one of these systems that you enter your vehicle registration number in the machine after you swipe your card which I forgot. Similar to rules in some ALDI or LIDL stores. Yes I have my membership card.

    I was completely put off by this unfair rule. We only paid £42 annual membership and it is totally normal that a family with kids forget to enter the reg number at the machine. I stopped being a member after that year as I did not agree to this rule!

    Once my appeal for parking in ALDI was accepted because I sent them the receipt of shopping in ALDI.
    • S G
    • By S G 9th Oct 16, 9:37 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    S G
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 16, 9:37 AM
    Thanks
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 16, 9:37 AM
    Thanks for the reply. I even do not know if I forgot or the machine was in fault. I received the tickets days after by post.

    They should have accepted my appeal as I sent them the membership card.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 9th Oct 16, 11:01 AM
    • 2,248 Posts
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    Ralph-y
    • #5
    • 9th Oct 16, 11:01 AM
    • #5
    • 9th Oct 16, 11:01 AM
    write back to botanical gardens and tell them you wish to cancel your membership as it has now become to expensive .... make sure you are using the correct email address .... cc to the CEO .....

    leave feedback on facebook / trip advisor

    good luck

    Ralph
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Oct 16, 1:55 PM
    • 40,566 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 9th Oct 16, 1:55 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Oct 16, 1:55 PM
    Thanks for the reply. I even do not know if I forgot or the machine was in fault. I received the tickets days after by post.

    They should have accepted my appeal as I sent them the membership card.
    Originally posted by S G
    Yes but that won't be your only defence point if they try a small claim. Come back if it happens after you've responded to this letter. We've seen a few CEL court papers this year but after we've provided a defence I cannot recall a SINGLE ONE which proceeded to a hearing. SO we can confidently tell you that a strong response now and/or a strong response in defence seems to see CEL give up and concentrate on weaker victims.

    During the last year of membership they added this Parking system
    As Henrik777 said in 'POPLA Decisions', they (the Botanical Gardens) cannot 'bolt on random carp' to a contract already concluded when you paid your membership.

    Basically new terms cannot be added.

    How were those onerous terms added? Did the Botanical Gardens write and say they were varying the membership terms and to note that £100 charge would apply...blah blah?! No? Just as I thought.

    As well as showing us a draft response to this letter (and NOT just saying 'you should have cancelled it, I was a member' - make it more like the CEL court defences you will find when you search the forum!) why not fight back by writing to Mrs May and your MP, as we are encouraging, to get this industry's wings clipped at least:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5524754

    NOW is the time for everyone scammed in this way to write to your MP and Mrs May. NOW.

    HTH
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-10-2016 at 1:59 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 9th Oct 16, 2:34 PM
    • 2,397 Posts
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    Johno100
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 16, 2:34 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 16, 2:34 PM
    As Henrik777 said in 'POPLA Decisions', they (the Botanical Gardens) cannot 'bolt on random carp' to a contract already concluded when you paid your membership.

    Basically new terms cannot be added.

    How were those onerous terms added? Did the Botanical Gardens write and say they were varying the membership terms and to note that £100 charge would apply...blah blah?! No? Just as I thought.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Just for your information, it seems from these Trip Advisor comments that they've had a PPC in place for at least the last 3 years.

    https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g186402-d214008-r165750724-Birmingham_Botanical_Gardens_and_Glasshouses-Birmingham_West_Midlands_England.html

    Also there is no indication on their website that parking conditions are any different for members or none members. Car parking is free but all visitors (members and none members) have to record their car number plate upon arrival.

    http://www.birminghambotanicalgardens.org.uk/visitor-information/the-facilities/
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Oct 16, 3:29 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 9th Oct 16, 3:29 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Oct 16, 3:29 PM
    Yes, but if the OP had a long-term contract (membership) which he renewed each year, which did not bolt on this random carp, then it does not form part of the contract of membership he accepted by the consideration of paying his £47 in exchange for the licence granted by the Botanical Gardens.

    What we are trying to argue in defences for places like this or residents' permit agreements, is that the contract was already concluded with the supply of the permit/membership for that year. And if the agreement did not say something like this:

    'further terms that are part of this agreement are set out on signs in the car park. Please note that £100 charge may apply and there is a contractual obligation now, for members to input xyz details. So to avoid £100 charge, please ensure you read the signs and comply with the contractual obligations therein, every time before parking'

    ...then it was never incorporated into the contract.

    Otherwise (as a simple analogy I hope) employers could get away with taking someone on under a signed employment contract then put up signs in the office out of the blue about some random rubbish extra rules (and change them every week/month/year!) then charge their employees £100 for contravention of the signs in the office. Unions would have a field day!

    See what I mean, it's not part of the core contract at all, which was a stand-alone agreement already agreed which had no mention of any obligation to comply with signs. Unless the OP tells us that the membership DID mention £100 charge and an 'obligation', contract and signs.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-10-2016 at 3:38 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 9th Oct 16, 3:42 PM
    • 2,397 Posts
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    Johno100
    • #9
    • 9th Oct 16, 3:42 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Oct 16, 3:42 PM
    But in this case the parking provision is not connected to membership it applies to all visitors.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Oct 16, 3:45 PM
    • 40,566 Posts
    • 52,456 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    But the licence granted by membership supersedes and pre-dates it and was agreed/concluded as a contract, in writing and was paid for.

    A third party cannot bolt on random carp to a contract already existing. Laura Jopson's higher-level Appeal case covers that in some ways:

    http://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/milton-keynes-woman-secures-landmark-victory-for-flat-tenants-in-parking-dispute-1-7459066

    HTH
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-10-2016 at 3:48 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 9th Oct 16, 4:03 PM
    • 2,397 Posts
    • 2,437 Thanks
    Johno100
    But the licence granted by membership supersedes and pre-dates it and was agreed/concluded as a contract, in writing and was paid for.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    And if the agreement is silent on the matter of parking, because membership provides no special parking privileges over and above those offered to none members, then a member by dint of his/her special status doesn't have to comply with any changes in the car parking arrangements?
    • DUTR
    • By DUTR 9th Oct 16, 4:15 PM
    • 10,613 Posts
    • 6,007 Thanks
    DUTR
    And if the agreement is silent on the matter of parking, because membership provides no special parking privileges over and above those offered to none members, then a member by dint of his/her special status doesn't have to comply with any changes in the car parking arrangements?
    Originally posted by Johno100
    Sadly for the OP, he is going to have to pay up, this was highlighted some time back on BBC WM, the car park does not belong to the gardens and is managed by one of those company's that the OP has come across, he has violated the T&C's so may lose any appeal.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 9th Oct 16, 5:53 PM
    • 1,725 Posts
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    fisherjim
    Sadly for the OP, he is going to have to pay up, this was highlighted some time back on BBC WM, the car park does not belong to the gardens and is managed by one of those company's that the OP has come across, he has violated the T&C's so may lose any appeal.
    Originally posted by DUTR
    What rubbish!!
    To quote the words of the great Count Arthur Strong "You Couldn't make it up"
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 9th Oct 16, 6:48 PM
    • 991 Posts
    • 1,734 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Sadly for the OP, he is going to have to pay up, this was highlighted some time back on BBC WM, the car park does not belong to the gardens and is managed by one of those company's that the OP has come across, he has violated the T&C's so may lose any appeal.
    I'd be interested in who owns the car park and what BBC WM have said as if there are different owners it will make a difference. Do you have an identifiable source?

    As an aside if the OP has had a promise of free parking from the BG and they failed to provide it (irrespective of the ownership) he/she may have a claim against the BG. Legal term is "tough !!!! BG"
    General Election coming up? Your MP worried about his/her job? Give them something to do and get them to sort out these parking cowboys. Search "Theyworkforyou" for the name of your MP.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Oct 16, 6:49 PM
    • 40,566 Posts
    • 52,456 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Sadly for the OP, he is going to have to pay up, this was highlighted some time back on BBC WM, the car park does not belong to the gardens and is managed by one of those company's that the OP has come across, he has violated the T&C's so may lose any appeal.
    Originally posted by DUTR
    What an ill-informed post. You've watched a TV article and think people have to pay private parking 'charges'! Think again.

    Please don't post stuff when you do not know the answer on private parking matters. The words 'pay up' are always WRONG on this forum.

    And if the agreement is silent on the matter of parking, because membership provides no special parking privileges over and above those offered to none members, then a member by dint of his/her special status doesn't have to comply with any changes in the car parking arrangements?
    Originally posted by Johno100
    A valid question, and the other side of that coin is explained by IamEmanresu:

    if the OP has had a promise of free parking from the BG and they failed to provide it (irrespective of the ownership) he/she may have a claim against the BG. Legal term is "tough !!!! BG"
    Too many 'ifs' and 'buts'. We need to know more from the OP.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-10-2016 at 6:53 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • DUTR
    • By DUTR 9th Oct 16, 6:56 PM
    • 10,613 Posts
    • 6,007 Thanks
    DUTR
    What rubbish!!
    Originally posted by fisherjim
    What an ill-informed post. You've watched a TV article and think people have to pay private parking 'charges'! Think again.

    Please don't post stuff when you do not know the answer on private parking matters. The words 'pay up' are always WRONG on this forum.

    A valid question, and the other side of that coin is explained by IamEmanresu:



    Too many 'ifs' and 'buts'. We need to know more from the OP.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Well I remember the article well, and the spokes person from BG explained the changes, they don't manage the car park.

    Tripadvisor
    Last edited by DUTR; 09-10-2016 at 6:58 PM.
    • S G
    • By S G 9th Oct 16, 7:27 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    S G
    Thanks for the replies. Either a member or not, I was a visitor of Botanical Gardens so the parking was authorised and free for all visitors. The entrance fee for visitors is 7.5 pounds so imagine you go to some place for a visit and pay over £65-100!!! I was paying £42 for annual membership for the whole family! It is outrageous and absolutely unfair! This entering the car reg number is a very rubbish rule. Many people forget to do it. They should accept the appeals once they see a membership card or proof of visitors ticket.

    Parking eye did accept it once for me as I was a customer of ALDI. Here it is:

    Reference: Parking Charge Notice - 111423/285638
    Dear Sir / Madam,
    We refer to the Parking Charge incurred on 06 December 2014 at 09:29:11, at ALDI Blaby car park.
    On this occasion as a gesture of goodwill we will be cancelling this charge.
    However, if future visits to this car park are made please take note of the parking regulations on the signage throughout the car park and adhere to these, as it is applicable to all motorists using the car park.
    Kind Regards,
    ParkingEye Team
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th Oct 16, 7:39 PM
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    Fruitcake
    Well I remember the article well, and the spokes person from BG explained the changes, they don't manage the car park.

    Tripadvisor
    Originally posted by DUTR
    That link is over three years old.

    The Beavis case at the Supreme Court and the introduction of the Alternative Dispute Regulations happened last year. The IPC have come into being, and PoPLA has been taken over.

    There have been so many changes that your post is out of date and very ill informed.

    Please do not post incorrect information as someone might actually believe you and end up paying when they did not need to. This is a money saving website after all.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
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    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 9th Oct 16, 7:52 PM
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    Johno100
    A valid question, and the other side of that coin is explained by IamEmanresu:

    Too many 'ifs' and 'buts'. We need to know more from the OP.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    And we now do

    Thanks for the replies. Either a member or not, I was a visitor of Botanical Gardens so the parking was authorised and free for all visitors.The entrance fee for visitors is 7.5 pounds so imagine you go to some place for a visit and pay over £65-100!!! I was paying £42 for annual membership for the whole family! It is outrageous and absolutely unfair! This entering the car reg number is a very rubbish rule. Many people forget to do it. They should accept the appeals once they see a membership card or proof of visitors ticket.
    Originally posted by S G
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Oct 16, 8:42 PM
    • 40,566 Posts
    • 52,456 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Well I remember the article well, and the spokes person from BG explained the changes, they don't manage the car park.

    Tripadvisor
    Originally posted by DUTR
    But that's not a reason to tell a person to 'pay up'.

    This is a private parking charge like we deal with here every day - generally held to be utter rip-off rubbish that the Government needs to reign in - they are not fines and even after the Beavis case are not there to be paid by recipients, rolling over like some sort of scam victim.

    So like we said already, it seems a visitor to that place has free parking offered and has already paid for the privilege of membership, so cannot be expected to re-read the sign on every visit to check nothing new has been added randomly to a contract that has already concluded and (it seems, although we've not seen the membership agreement) offered free entry/parking for members.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-10-2016 at 8:50 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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