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  • FIRST POST
    • farenkaren
    • By farenkaren 8th Oct 16, 11:35 AM
    • 3Posts
    • 2Thanks
    farenkaren
    What if your employer lies to tax office
    • #1
    • 8th Oct 16, 11:35 AM
    What if your employer lies to tax office 8th Oct 16 at 11:35 AM
    I am stuck in a bit of a catch 22 situation that I thought I would share.

    Last year my employer just stopped paying me salary. I took him to an employment tribunal which found in my favour. My employer however had no intention of ever paying me and the company is now in administration.

    In the meantime, the person who kept the accounts filed a P45 with my salary AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

    When I sent in my income for tax credits, I explained this. I also phoned up to explain that there would be a discrepancy. I was told 'that won't be a problem'.
    Of course it was a problem and HMRC wrote back. I called again and was told to send bank statements as evidence. I sent this and also my employment tribunal award. HMRC replied that this was 'insufficient evidence'. (even though it was exactly the evidence that they had asked for!).
    Nevertheless HMRC has decided that they are still going to reduce my tax credit award.
    Even the person on the tax credit helpline agreed that this was doubly unfair. I am of course writng for a mandatory reconsideration and will persue this. I have called the tax office a number of times to ask them if this is not a problem - that the tax amounts are wrong - but they don't seem concerned.
    The company administrator is very unhelpful and unlikely to be of any help as he hasn't been paid either!

    Doesn't it seem ridiculously unfair though that not only did I not get paid but then I also get penalised again because my (pretty crooked) employer lied? In the meantime, my former boss is not being penalised in any way as it was a limited company. Is there something I am missing here? Or are things really this stacked against employees and in favour of corrupt company directors?
Page 1
    • Mersey
    • By Mersey 8th Oct 16, 11:41 AM
    • 1,248 Posts
    • 567 Thanks
    Mersey
    • #2
    • 8th Oct 16, 11:41 AM
    • #2
    • 8th Oct 16, 11:41 AM
    Complain via HMRC (there's an online form). Although keep it brief as it only allows 1000 characters ie including spaces.
    Please be polite to OPs and remember this is a site for Claimants and Appellants to seek redress against their bank, ex-boss or retailer. If they wanted morality or the view of the IoD or Bank they'd ask them.
    • Darksparkle
    • By Darksparkle 8th Oct 16, 11:44 AM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 2,119 Thanks
    Darksparkle
    • #3
    • 8th Oct 16, 11:44 AM
    • #3
    • 8th Oct 16, 11:44 AM
    HMRC will only care from the tax side of things if the tax/NIC hasn't been paid.

    Not fair obviously but from a tax credit side, they have no authority to question your employer.

    Wonder if you could manage to report it via a failure to pay NMW.
    Last edited by Darksparkle; 08-10-2016 at 11:47 AM.
    • Mersey
    • By Mersey 8th Oct 16, 11:54 AM
    • 1,248 Posts
    • 567 Thanks
    Mersey
    • #4
    • 8th Oct 16, 11:54 AM
    • #4
    • 8th Oct 16, 11:54 AM
    HMRC will only care from the tax side of things if the tax/NIC hasn't been paid.

    Not fair obviously but from a tax credit side, they have no authority to question your employer.

    Wonder if you could manage to report it via a failure to pay NMW.
    Originally posted by Darksparkle


    I'm not sure that's quite right - but I agree the lower grade staff may not think they can.


    I recall during the Select Committee evidence session re Sports Direct and so on, this was raised and the senior civil servant said HMRC & the DWP can investigate RTI where concerns are raised that it is fake/inaccurate.


    It may therefore need an MP's intervention to get it resolved.


    But yes, good point re the NMW - this was mentioned yesterday on the News as you might have seen, where another large warehouse-type employer was involved in practices including deducting pay or holding it over to year end, whereas they cannot do this by law (including the NMW Act).
    Please be polite to OPs and remember this is a site for Claimants and Appellants to seek redress against their bank, ex-boss or retailer. If they wanted morality or the view of the IoD or Bank they'd ask them.
    • Icequeen99
    • By Icequeen99 8th Oct 16, 12:03 PM
    • 3,185 Posts
    • 2,191 Thanks
    Icequeen99
    • #5
    • 8th Oct 16, 12:03 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Oct 16, 12:03 PM
    The tax credit regs (unlike the UC ones) don't refer to RTI data, and so what matters is what you actually received from your employer.

    I think if you can evidence at appeal the fact that you won your employment tribunal and that you received no payments into the bank account (presumably you can show payments in to a certain point and then they stop) that is your side of the argument.

    HMRC's evidence of your earnings is the RTI data - it will be up to the judge to then decide whether you did have earnings as defined under the tax credits legislation.

    I would say you have strong evidence with what you have.

    IQ
    • Darksparkle
    • By Darksparkle 8th Oct 16, 12:22 PM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 2,119 Thanks
    Darksparkle
    • #6
    • 8th Oct 16, 12:22 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Oct 16, 12:22 PM
    I'm not sure that's quite right - but I agree the lower grade staff may not think they can.


    I recall during the Select Committee evidence session re Sports Direct and so on, this was raised and the senior civil servant said HMRC & the DWP can investigate RTI where concerns are raised that it is fake/inaccurate.


    It may therefore need an MP's intervention to get it resolved.


    But yes, good point re the NMW - this was mentioned yesterday on the News as you might have seen, where another large warehouse-type employer was involved in practices including deducting pay or holding it over to year end, whereas they cannot do this by law (including the NMW Act).
    Originally posted by Mersey
    Yes they can absolutely question RTI returns for tax purposes but if an employer has continued to report the same salary and paid tax/NIC then they are unlikely to be high up on the list for a compliance check compared to employers not submitting returns, not paying tax/NIC, paying less than nmw etc.

    HMRC compliance would be looking at bringing in more revenue, an employer failing to pay a salary wouldn't increase tax/mix/penalties etc for them.

    Where are is nmw hasn't been paid for hours worked then this might be a way in for them. If the company does dissolve however they are unlikely to do anything.

    Regarding the tax credit issue, I think IQs advice is best to follow.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 8th Oct 16, 3:35 PM
    • 2,735 Posts
    • 4,277 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #7
    • 8th Oct 16, 3:35 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Oct 16, 3:35 PM
    If there is no chance of getting the tribunal award from the employer, you are entitled to go to the Redundancy Payments Service, who can pay at least some of what you are owed. The Tribunals Office can tell you how to go about this.
    • dippy3103
    • By dippy3103 8th Oct 16, 4:55 PM
    • 1,519 Posts
    • 2,329 Thanks
    dippy3103
    • #8
    • 8th Oct 16, 4:55 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Oct 16, 4:55 PM
    Surely HMRC can ask them to proove how they paid you..?
    • Darksparkle
    • By Darksparkle 8th Oct 16, 7:37 PM
    • 3,429 Posts
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    Darksparkle
    • #9
    • 8th Oct 16, 7:37 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Oct 16, 7:37 PM
    Surely HMRC can ask them to proove how they paid you..?
    Originally posted by dippy3103
    But then they'd have to disclose that the OP claims tax credits which they can't do.
    • dippy3103
    • By dippy3103 8th Oct 16, 8:31 PM
    • 1,519 Posts
    • 2,329 Thanks
    dippy3103
    But then they'd have to disclose that the OP claims tax credits which they can't do.
    Originally posted by Darksparkle
    They can with o/p's permission.
    • Darksparkle
    • By Darksparkle 8th Oct 16, 8:47 PM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 2,119 Thanks
    Darksparkle
    They can with o/p's permission.
    Originally posted by dippy3103
    I take it back, they can.
    • dippy3103
    • By dippy3103 8th Oct 16, 10:15 PM
    • 1,519 Posts
    • 2,329 Thanks
    dippy3103
    I take it back, they can.
    Originally posted by Darksparkle
    Though the thought has occurred to me that there must be authorised officers investigating tax credit fraud. Just wondering which legislation they can use to require info.
    • Darksparkle
    • By Darksparkle 9th Oct 16, 7:24 AM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 2,119 Thanks
    Darksparkle
    Though the thought has occurred to me that there must be authorised officers investigating tax credit fraud. Just wondering which legislation they can use to require info.
    Originally posted by dippy3103
    I knew there would be but I thought there would be data protection issues with discussing with the employer but apparently not (same with childcare provider). Tells you in the claimant compliance manual if you can be bothered looking through it.
    Last edited by Darksparkle; 09-10-2016 at 7:31 AM.
    • dippy3103
    • By dippy3103 9th Oct 16, 12:12 PM
    • 1,519 Posts
    • 2,329 Thanks
    dippy3103
    I knew there would be but I thought there would be data protection issues with discussing with the employer but apparently not (same with childcare provider). Tells you in the claimant compliance manual if you can be bothered looking through it.
    Originally posted by Darksparkle
    In honesty I was just wondering out loud!

    I think compliance means a different thing in HMRC than it does in DWP
    • Adereterial
    • By Adereterial 11th Oct 16, 10:19 PM
    • 474 Posts
    • 644 Thanks
    Adereterial
    If the company is in administration, you can also report this to the administrator. Investigating potential misconduct by the directors is part of the administrators job, and it may contribute to sanctions being imposed. You should also register a claim and give them proof of the debt - the administrators may be in a position to pay you some of what is owed.
    • farenkaren
    • By farenkaren 1st Nov 16, 6:14 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    farenkaren
    Thanks but...
    Thanks for this. As I understood it though the Redundancy Payment Service is only for people employed when the company goes into bankruptcy or similar?That happened after I left.
    • farenkaren
    • By farenkaren 1st Nov 16, 6:33 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    farenkaren
    Update
    Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions. Thought you might like to know what happened. It still isn't resolved.

    1. I asked for a Mandatory Reconsideration and sent again my bank accounts and Employment Tribunal Award.

    2. I received a reply saying that they will not reconsider the decision because ' There is no provision within the tax credit legislation ...(to alter the amounts) and that I should 'contact the tax office to ask them to look into this matter'

    3. I contacted the tax office. They wouldn't even tell me whether the tax had been paid on my earnings and suggested that I send in bank statements etc.

    In other words I am back where I started! I can't see that the tax office will have any interest in helping me so...

    There is no point chasing the company as essentially it no longer exists.

    Will let you know if I get anywhere though I'm not very optimistic. Thanks
    • DigForVictory
    • By DigForVictory 1st Nov 16, 7:18 PM
    • 5,947 Posts
    • 14,929 Thanks
    DigForVictory
    Email your MP.
    They can give the Tax Credits system a boot, but may need the whole NMW bit explaining in single syllable words.
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