Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • rjsdcssch88
    • By rjsdcssch88 5th Oct 16, 12:13 AM
    • 8Posts
    • 6Thanks
    rjsdcssch88
    Lost parking ticket by private firm
    • #1
    • 5th Oct 16, 12:13 AM
    Lost parking ticket by private firm 5th Oct 16 at 12:13 AM
    I went with my mate to see a friend who has recently been staying in Manchester on the 3/10/16 around 10pm. The driver was driving a hire car at the time and parked the car on the street outside the apartment. On our return we got in the car and drove off not noticing that a parking ticket had been stuck on the windscreen. As it was very late night and dark, the ticket wasn't noticeable. We only realised when it flew off. We knew it was some kind of ticket as it was glued onto the windscreen but not strong enough.

    We went back to the street and realised after some careful looking around a small sign saying that parking isn't allowed on this street. Not only that, the writing on the sign is tiny and the sign itself is impossible to spot. Also there were other cars on the street that were parked there from the apartments but they didn't receive tickets.
    Photos have been taken of all this as evidence.

    The parking company is UK Parking Patrol Office and it is part of the IPC.

    My question is that since the ticket has been lost, what is the best way to find out if it was a ticket issued. Should the parking company be contacted and if so in writing? My concern is that if it's in writing then 14 days may pass and the fine will be 100 quid. Also should the car registration be given to them when dealing with them. They have an email address, phone number and online form on their site. Which do you suggest is the best way to contact them?

    Thanks
    Ray
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Oct 16, 12:23 AM
    • 40,488 Posts
    • 52,382 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 5th Oct 16, 12:23 AM
    • #2
    • 5th Oct 16, 12:23 AM
    I would probably not contact them - first, I would contact the Hire firm and warn them what happened and tell them that you (as hirer) DO NOT AUTHORISE any private (scam) PCN to be paid. It WILL NOT be covered by the hire t&cs about real penalties (this is not one). Insist they follow the BVRLA process to discharge any liability when they get a letter - about a month or so after the event - which means they supply the hirer's name and address.

    Then the hirer appeals when they get their own PCN. The PCN will NOT be cancelled but at least the hire firm are out of the equation and no idiot will pay it like a numpty!

    Do not phone UKPPO unless you try something very sneaky...how about the PASSENGER phones up (an assertive person, not a pushover friend!) and recounts what happened, without saying whether they were hirer/driver/keeper, just say 'we' were in the car and 'we' saw the PCN fly off...

    Ask for the PCN number because you were 'planning on paying it' and wondered if there was any discount...?! Get that PCN number, and if they say they can take the payment over the phone suddenly feign a lost credit card. DO NOT be talked into paying.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 05-10-2016 at 12:25 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • rjsdcssch88
    • By rjsdcssch88 5th Oct 16, 9:12 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    rjsdcssch88
    • #3
    • 5th Oct 16, 9:12 AM
    • #3
    • 5th Oct 16, 9:12 AM
    Thanks for your reply. I contacted the hire firm just now. They have told me that they will pay the fine if the parking firm gets in touch and then bill me with the new amount inc their administration fee. I will then need to appeal to the parking firm to get my money back. I've told them that I can't appeal then because the parking firm already has the payment.

    They insist that this is the way it works.

    I am thinking of ringing the parking firm and asking for ticket or something.

    Any ideas?

    Thanks
    • DollyDee
    • By DollyDee 5th Oct 16, 9:26 AM
    • 623 Posts
    • 639 Thanks
    DollyDee
    • #4
    • 5th Oct 16, 9:26 AM
    • #4
    • 5th Oct 16, 9:26 AM
    I would probably not contact them - first, I would contact the Hire firm and warn them what happened and tell them that you (as hirer) DO NOT AUTHORISE any private (scam) PCN to be paid. It WILL NOT be covered by the hire t&cs about real penalties (this is not one). Insist they follow the BVRLA process to discharge any liability when they get a letter - about a month or so after the event - which means they supply the hirer's name and address.

    Then the hirer appeals when they get their own PCN. The PCN will NOT be cancelled but at least the hire firm are out of the equation and no idiot will pay it like a numpty!

    Do not phone UKPPO unless you try something very sneaky...how about the PASSENGER phones up (an assertive person, not a pushover friend!) and recounts what happened, without saying whether they were hirer/driver/keeper, just say 'we' were in the car and 'we' saw the PCN fly off...

    Ask for the PCN number because you were 'planning on paying it' and wondered if there was any discount...?! Get that PCN number, and if they say they can take the payment over the phone suddenly feign a lost credit card. DO NOT be talked into paying.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Re-read Coupon-Mad's first paragraph above.

    What the Hire Firm has said is incorrect. It does not work this way. They have to follow the BVRLA process. Ring them again and send a confirmation email instructing them NOT TO PAY THE PCN under any circumstances! It is a speculative invoice, it is NOT A FINE OR PENALTY. Tell them they can pass on your details only. Do not let them pay the PCN. The admin fee they charge you could be up to half the amount of the PCN.

    Do it now.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Oct 16, 1:46 PM
    • 40,488 Posts
    • 52,382 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 5th Oct 16, 1:46 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Oct 16, 1:46 PM
    We've told you to insist on the BVRLA (Google them) procedure. They MUST name you as hirer, not pay the thing.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 5th Oct 16, 2:34 PM
    • 2,242 Posts
    • 2,725 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    • #6
    • 5th Oct 16, 2:34 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Oct 16, 2:34 PM
    follow the above advice ......

    its easier to sort this now that after they have paid it!

    have a read of this thread to see ....

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5515157

    Good luck

    Ralph
    • rjsdcssch88
    • By rjsdcssch88 5th Oct 16, 9:38 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    rjsdcssch88
    • #7
    • 5th Oct 16, 9:38 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Oct 16, 9:38 PM
    Cheers for all your replies. I have sneakly contacted the company that issued that ticket and have received the PCN without mentioning who was driving the car, etc and will now appeal.

    In addition to this, I will contact Hertz, the rental company to deal with this too, in that they don't pay the fine but only pass on the details.

    Thanks for all your replies and will let you know how I get on.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Oct 16, 10:39 PM
    • 40,488 Posts
    • 52,382 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 5th Oct 16, 10:39 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Oct 16, 10:39 PM
    Good work! Only appeal as hirer/lessee, NOT DRIVER!! Now you have the PCN you can indeed appeal.

    You do also need to warn the Hire company off though, in writing (NOT by phone) telling them you WILL NOT be liable if they stupidly pay this if they should get a letter later on. Tell them that they are not liable and merely need to name you as hirer, with your address too, then they are out of the equation. Do not believe any rubbish about the 't&cs say we can pay these fines'. No they don't. This is not a fine.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 05-10-2016 at 10:42 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • rjsdcssch88
    • By rjsdcssch88 5th Oct 16, 11:39 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    rjsdcssch88
    • #9
    • 5th Oct 16, 11:39 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Oct 16, 11:39 PM
    Cheers Coupon Mad and everyone else for your helpful replies.

    I would be very grateful if someone can double check my appeal letter below that I'd like to send to UK PPO via their website. I haven't named the driver only mention the keeper (or hirer).

    Wednesday 5th October 2016


    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. XXX

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car and I will complain to the landowner about the matter if it is not cancelled.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers before they park.

    I will not be paying your demand for payment because the street in question where the alleged contravention occurred has no clear signage to explain what the relevant parking restrictions are. Furthermore, no signage is visible when it’s dark. This means no contract can be formed with the landowner and all tickets are issued illegally. Please see attached photographic evidence I have gathered as proof that shows how poor the street signage is and how difficult it is to see the signs. Furthermore, the photographic evidence shows there are no double yellow lines which indicates that parking is allowed.
    Further, I understand you do not own the street and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. I believe the keeper may well be eligible for cancellation and you have omitted clear information about the process for complaints including a geographical address of the landowner.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,


    ___
    Do I need to also provide my name and address on top this appeal reply? During the week when I work away from home, I stay in a rented flat, would it be advisable to use this as my address as this is different to the address that the hire car company has and also different to the address on my drivers licence?

    Thanks again in advance for your replies.
    Last edited by rjsdcssch88; 05-10-2016 at 11:43 PM.
    • rjsdcssch88
    • By rjsdcssch88 6th Oct 16, 12:39 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    rjsdcssch88
    I will put my name and my flat address where I stay during the week on the correspondence when I appeal online.

    I will let you know how I get on.

    Cheers
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 6th Oct 16, 7:00 PM
    • 9,478 Posts
    • 8,248 Thanks
    Guys Dad

    In addition to this, I will contact Hertz, the rental company to deal with this too, in that they don't pay the fine but only pass on the details.

    Thanks for all your replies and will let you know how I get on.
    Originally posted by rjsdcssch88
    Will you stop using the word "FINE". Hire companies will pay genuine fines and charge your card as these are bona fide authorised charges and your t&c with them permits them to do this.

    Speculative invoices from private parking companies are not fines and are NOT covered in your Hire t&c. If you refer to these as FINES, then that doesn't help your case with Hertz.
    • rjsdcssch88
    • By rjsdcssch88 6th Oct 16, 10:00 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    rjsdcssch88
    Apologies and thanks for correcting me. Yes I will address it as a speculative invoice rather than fine.

    Thanks again.
    • rjsdcssch88
    • By rjsdcssch88 15th Oct 16, 2:12 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    rjsdcssch88
    Hello all,

    A quick update. I sent my reply above to UK PPO via their appeals section on their website. I have now heard back from them and surprise surprise, they've rejected my appeal with this emailed reply:

    Parking Charge Number: PCNXXXXX

    Vehicle Registration Number: XXXX XXX

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Thank you for your letter of appeal against the Parking Charge Notice issued by us on XX.XX.2016

    Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you we have decided to reject your appeal for the following reasons:

    The vehicle was parked on private land that is well signed with bright yellow contractual notices stating that no parking is permitted on the road at any time. The notices comply with current legislations.

    Please see the attached photographic evidence of the vehicle parked in clear view of two of the contractual notices in place.

    We have a signed agreement with the landowner which fully entitles us to enforce the notices issued at the site. We are under no obligation to provide you with a copy of this agreement, as it is commercially sensitive, but we will supply the IAS with a copy should you seek independent arbitration of your appeal.

    Please be advised that a new Law from 1st October 2012 (part of the Protection of Freedoms Act) changed liability for parking on private land from the driver of the vehicle to the vehicle’s registered keeper, unless the keeper clearly identifies who was driving the car at the time.

    The terms and conditions of the parking contract are well advertised throughout the development. By leaving the vehicle parked and unattended the driver accepted all of the prevailing terms & conditions of the contract including the charges for breach of that contract.

    You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure and have a number of options:
    The reply then states I can pay the invoice, or use the IAS to appeal (don't know if this will be any good).

    Their signs, which read like an essay and you have to be up close like 1 ft away don't state who the landowner is. Also, they won't provide the contractual agreement stating it's commercially 'sensitive'. The other thing is that the car was parked on the opposite side of the road to the signs they claim are clear and in compliance with current legislation (though what this legislation is, isn't mentioned). The side of the road I was parked on has no signs.

    I am now concerned over two things:

    - I did notify my hire company not to process any spurious invoices demanding payment and to simply follow BVRLA guidelines and to pass on my details and I will deal with this as this invoice is neither a fine or charge and that it doesn't fall into their terms and conditions. (I even quoted them on their t&c in my email response). Because it's a generic customer services email, I am slightly concerned, they would have ignored it and may go ahead with processing any spurious invoices.

    - I am wondering if using the IAS will make any difference and how to proceed next. Should I try find out who the land owners are and try to get them to reverse the invoice?

    Thanks.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Oct 16, 5:35 PM
    • 36,467 Posts
    • 73,293 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    It is up to you whether you appeal to the IAS or not. Some say don't bother, others say appeal but it will be rejected which may encourage the parking company to go to court. However, the IAS rejection doesn't follow the Alternative Dispute Regulations 2015 so gives you a chance to win if it does go to court.

    You should contact the hire company again telling them you have appealed and are going through the IPC/IAS process, so they do not need to do anything, indeed they must not do anything if they receive anything from the PPC.

    Have a google for alternative/better email addresses, and also a postal address. Keep screenshots/proof of posting.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • rjsdcssch88
    • By rjsdcssch88 15th Oct 16, 5:57 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    rjsdcssch88
    Thanks for your prompt reply.

    Another thing which I have noticed when I was looking at my photographic evidence is that the no parking sign has Accredited IPC Operator written on it as well as BPA written on it? I thought it was one or the other? Is that an additional argument with regards to breach of signage?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by rjsdcssch88; 15-10-2016 at 6:11 PM.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 15th Oct 16, 6:27 PM
    • 9,478 Posts
    • 8,248 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    Thanks for your prompt reply.

    Another thing which I have noticed when I was looking at my photographic evidence is that the no parking sign has Accredited IPC Operator written on it as well as BPA written on it? I thought it was one or the other? Is that an additional argument with regards to breach of signage?

    Thanks.
    Originally posted by rjsdcssch88
    No. Perfectly ok to belong to both but probably not part of BPA AOS.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 15th Oct 16, 7:09 PM
    • 2,242 Posts
    • 2,725 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    just so you begin to understand that all PPC's lie .....

    "The vehicle was parked on private land that is well signed with bright yellow contractual notices stating that no parking is permitted on the road at any time. The notices comply with current legislations."



    oh no it does not !


    you can not have a contract formed for some thing that is forbidden


    Ralph
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Oct 16, 9:26 PM
    • 40,488 Posts
    • 52,382 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I am wondering if using the IAS will make any difference and how to proceed next.
    Originally posted by rjsdcssch88
    Yes it will make a seriously BAD difference to you when you LOSE and then you will feel more on the back foot. This is all explained in post #3 of the NEWBIES FAQs where it is explained NOT to try IAS, and why not.

    You can't be held liable because the PCN they sent you (no doubt) didn't include the hire paperwork as stated in the POFA Schedule 4, para 13/14. So nothing happens except letters.

    Sit tight, we don't need to hear about the daft demand threatogram letters. Come back though, if you get a solicitor's (e.g. Gladstones) letter, a MIL letter or court papers (like hen's teeth from firms who are not ParkingEye or Excel/VCS).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

1,356Posts Today

7,054Users online

Martin's Twitter