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  • FIRST POST
    • northseajoe
    • By northseajoe 4th Oct 16, 2:30 PM
    • 39Posts
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    northseajoe
    NTK wording - have I misunderstood?
    • #1
    • 4th Oct 16, 2:30 PM
    NTK wording - have I misunderstood? 4th Oct 16 at 2:30 PM
    Hi

    My daughter has received a PCN from Horizon Parking, alleging that she overstayed at Asda Stevenage.

    (PCN image attached. I hope)

    My understanding is that an NTK needs to tell the keeper that the creditor can recover unpaid monies from them - the keeper - if the driver is not identified within 28 days?

    This PCN seems to tell the keeper that the creditor can recover unpaid monies from the DRIVER. Have I misunderstood? Could someone sensible advise whether this makes the NTK invalid?


Page 1
    • northseajoe
    • By northseajoe 4th Oct 16, 2:32 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    northseajoe
    • #2
    • 4th Oct 16, 2:32 PM
    Sorry about the fuzzy image
    • #2
    • 4th Oct 16, 2:32 PM
    For clarity, the wording says...

    "If within 28 days we have not received full payment, we have the right to recover the parking charge amount that remains unpaid from the driver of the vehicle."
    • Carthesis
    • By Carthesis 4th Oct 16, 2:44 PM
    • 449 Posts
    • 784 Thanks
    Carthesis
    • #3
    • 4th Oct 16, 2:44 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Oct 16, 2:44 PM
    this is what the forum calls a "Notice to Keeper" - they've collared your daughter for "allegedly" parking in the ASDA car park for what appears to be nearly eight hours from what I can make out on the notice.

    The confusing text referencing the driver is designed to get you to identify the driver.

    Do not do so.

    They have contacted the Keeper under the provisions of POFA2012. this means that they can pursue the Keeper for things the driver has done provided they meet certain conditions which - on first glance - it appears this notice has not done. The fact they are referring to recovering money from the driver does not make it invalid.

    Read the **NEWBIES** thread on page one of the forum, and follow the advice for BPA members.

    Tell your "alleged" daughter that she shouldn't be using the ASDA car park for free parking while she's at work - this is exactly the kind of behaviour that the PPCs use to be able to justify being the dirty, scamming scumbags that they actually are.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Oct 16, 12:09 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 5th Oct 16, 12:09 AM
    • #4
    • 5th Oct 16, 12:09 AM
    My understanding is that an NTK needs to tell the keeper that the creditor can recover unpaid monies from them - the keeper - if the driver is not identified within 28 days?
    Only if they are issuing a POFA 2012 version, which they are not.

    This PCN seems to tell the keeper that the creditor can recover unpaid monies from the DRIVER. Have I misunderstood? Could someone sensible advise whether this makes the NTK invalid?
    It does not make it void. It just means it is a non-POFA document. As the NEWBIES thread tells you, PPCs do not have to follow the POFA but if they choose not to, they can only hold a driver liable. Like this one.

    Hence why the NEWBIES thread gives you a 'registered keeper' (NOT DRIVER) appellant template appeal (blue writing, PLEASE do not copy & paste it here and ask 'is it this one?' Yes...it is!). Submit that as keeper, do not tell them who was driving if they ask.

    Come back at POPLA stage once you have your rejection letter, then the keeper wins by using a long and strong appeal (yes it is deliberately long, yes POPLA have to read it, yes it will work).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • northseajoe
    • By northseajoe 5th Oct 16, 3:52 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    northseajoe
    • #5
    • 5th Oct 16, 3:52 PM
    Thanks again
    • #5
    • 5th Oct 16, 3:52 PM
    Thanks, Coupon-Mad. I'll try not to ask too many silly questions.

    By the way, my daughter tells me that the e-mail address quoted in the Stickies for the ASDA CEO (Andy someone?) is no longer in use.
    • northseajoe
    • By northseajoe 7th Oct 16, 7:39 AM
    • 39 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    northseajoe
    • #6
    • 7th Oct 16, 7:39 AM
    Does this matter?
    • #6
    • 7th Oct 16, 7:39 AM
    Hi Coupon-Mad

    Thanks again for all your time and help.

    My daughter has now sent an e-mail based on the blue-text in the Newbies thread...

    ... but she forgot to include any postal address on it, as you advised to do. Is this necessary or important or not? (Horizon clearly have her car-registration address, which is actually my address, which is why I received the PCN).

    PS She has now received a second PCN for a different date. Again, it looks like double-dipping (her car is used by various people and Asda is a frequent destination). I guess she just sends another blue-text keeper-missive?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Oct 16, 8:58 AM
    • 40,411 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 7th Oct 16, 8:58 AM
    • #7
    • 7th Oct 16, 8:58 AM
    Is this necessary or important or not?
    It's imperative, so forward it again and add it.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • northseajoe
    • By northseajoe 7th Oct 16, 11:22 AM
    • 39 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    northseajoe
    • #8
    • 7th Oct 16, 11:22 AM
    Okey-dokey
    • #8
    • 7th Oct 16, 11:22 AM
    Thanks Coupon-Mad. We'll get that done.

    Would it be rude to ask 'why'? I know you're right - I'm just curious.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Oct 16, 11:26 AM
    • 40,411 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 7th Oct 16, 11:26 AM
    • #9
    • 7th Oct 16, 11:26 AM
    Because the PPC might use it as an excuse to say the appeal didn't meet the criteria demanded on their PCN so they ignored it! We've seen that before, no address, no appeal...
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • northseajoe
    • By northseajoe 7th Oct 16, 11:57 AM
    • 39 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    northseajoe
    Lawks...
    I understand, Coupon-Mad...

    ... though on reading the PCN small print (amusingly headed 'useful information') it says that all appeal correspondence must also include "the name and address of the driver (if different)".

    I guess we'll fail on that one
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Oct 16, 12:01 PM
    • 40,411 Posts
    • 52,297 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    That's naughty of them. They cannot insist on getting that, as you know!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • northseajoe
    • By northseajoe 14th Oct 16, 7:38 AM
    • 39 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    northseajoe
    An update...
    My daughter has received a third PCN from Horizon, relating to three different days at ASDA.

    Her theory is that the ANPR camera doesn't deal with queuing cars well, and fails to register cars that leave and then re-enter at busy times.

    She's sending off another identical e-mail.
    Last edited by northseajoe; 14-10-2016 at 7:40 AM.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 14th Oct 16, 9:42 AM
    • 2,241 Posts
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    Ralph-y
    will she be able to supply proof of the car not being parked at Asda for at least one of the occasions ticked?

    Ralph
    • northseajoe
    • By northseajoe 14th Oct 16, 1:58 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    northseajoe
    Very unlikely, Ralph. The trips to Asda tend to be of the 'nipping out for a pint of milk' variety - rest of the time the car would be parked outside her flat. She could offer evidence that she herself was overseas at the time of two 'offences', but that's not really relevant.

    ***ooh, another update: Horizon have cancelled the first of the PCNs
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 14th Oct 16, 4:30 PM
    • 2,241 Posts
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    Ralph-y
    " She could offer evidence that she herself was overseas at the time of two 'offences', but that's not really relevant."

    yes ... but ...... it would prove that she ... as keeper was not the person driving ... its then up to them to prove who was ... and I am sure you are not telling .....

    Ralph
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