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  • FIRST POST
    • dentsp
    • By dentsp 3rd Oct 16, 6:08 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 1Thanks
    dentsp
    Faulty Caravan - Refund refused
    • #1
    • 3rd Oct 16, 6:08 PM
    Faulty Caravan - Refund refused 3rd Oct 16 at 6:08 PM
    Hi there,

    Looking for some advice on consumer rights if possible. We purchased a second hand wheelchair accessible caravan from a company in August and have had multiple faults with it since then. We've only been able to use it on three occasions since and have had major faults with it every time.

    They have repaired the issues each time but more and more faults keep happening to the point we no longer have any confidence left in it.

    We have requested a refund but have been refused on the grounds it was sold as seen but I was under the impression businesses can't use that 'phrase'.

    Does anyone know if we have any rights to claim a refund?

    Many thanks, Steve
    Last edited by dentsp; 03-10-2016 at 8:08 PM.
Page 1
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 3rd Oct 16, 8:58 PM
    • 14,587 Posts
    • 10,380 Thanks
    hollydays
    • #2
    • 3rd Oct 16, 8:58 PM
    • #2
    • 3rd Oct 16, 8:58 PM
    What are the faults and how did you pay? What did you pay?
    • dentsp
    • By dentsp 3rd Oct 16, 9:07 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    dentsp
    • #3
    • 3rd Oct 16, 9:07 PM
    • #3
    • 3rd Oct 16, 9:07 PM
    Hi, thanks for the reply. We paid £15,500 by bank transfer and the faults we have had so far are:

    Roof leak 3 times despite repairs
    Water heater no longer works
    Brakes faulty
    Leisure battery faulty
    Broken bed
    Wet room floor floods as drain is higher than floor level
    Numerous internal lights not working
    Room divider fell apart
    Door locked itself and we had to break in

    We have given them 4 opportunities to repair faults but more keep happening every time the caravan is used.
    Last edited by dentsp; 03-10-2016 at 9:10 PM.
    • Moneyineptitude
    • By Moneyineptitude 3rd Oct 16, 9:27 PM
    • 17,247 Posts
    • 7,786 Thanks
    Moneyineptitude
    • #4
    • 3rd Oct 16, 9:27 PM
    • #4
    • 3rd Oct 16, 9:27 PM
    It's a second hand (i.e. old) caravan. It can't be expected to be sold otherwise than "as seen".

    If you wanted a brand new caravan (with a brand new guarantee) you should have bought one.

    It would be no different if you bought a car second hand.

    At least the seller is agreeing to repair the faults you have identified.
    • iammumtoone
    • By iammumtoone 3rd Oct 16, 9:41 PM
    • 3,845 Posts
    • 7,303 Thanks
    iammumtoone
    • #5
    • 3rd Oct 16, 9:41 PM
    • #5
    • 3rd Oct 16, 9:41 PM
    Doesn't an item from a business seller have to be fit for purpose (whether its second hand or not)

    This craven doesn't sound likes its fit for purpose to me.

    The OP is not asking the seller to make it new, just to make it suitable for use as what it was sold.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 3rd Oct 16, 9:49 PM
    • 8,713 Posts
    • 9,776 Thanks
    shaun from Africa
    • #6
    • 3rd Oct 16, 9:49 PM
    • #6
    • 3rd Oct 16, 9:49 PM
    We paid £15,500 by bank transfer
    Originally posted by dentsp
    Was that the full selling price or did you also pay a deposit? and if so, how was the deposit paid?
    • dentsp
    • By dentsp 3rd Oct 16, 10:06 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    dentsp
    • #7
    • 3rd Oct 16, 10:06 PM
    • #7
    • 3rd Oct 16, 10:06 PM
    Thanks for the replies. I don't expect it to be new but as said it should be fit for purpose, which it is certainly not, regardless of the fact it's second hand. It's only 4 years old.

    Shaun, no deposit was made, would that make a difference? The price was 12,500 with 3000 paid for extra work
    Last edited by dentsp; 03-10-2016 at 10:11 PM.
    • shaun from Africa
    • By shaun from Africa 3rd Oct 16, 10:18 PM
    • 8,713 Posts
    • 9,776 Thanks
    shaun from Africa
    • #8
    • 3rd Oct 16, 10:18 PM
    • #8
    • 3rd Oct 16, 10:18 PM
    Shaun, no deposit was made, would that make a difference?
    Originally posted by dentsp
    I was hoping that a deposit was paid on a credit card as this would then have given you rights against the credit card company.
    • jobdone1
    • By jobdone1 3rd Oct 16, 11:01 PM
    • 640 Posts
    • 506 Thanks
    jobdone1
    • #9
    • 3rd Oct 16, 11:01 PM
    • #9
    • 3rd Oct 16, 11:01 PM
    Over 15k sold as seen um ? That's a !!!! take
    • Doc N
    • By Doc N 5th Oct 16, 6:37 AM
    • 5,877 Posts
    • 18,753 Thanks
    Doc N
    It's a second hand (i.e. old) caravan. It can't be expected to be sold otherwise than "as seen".

    If you wanted a brand new caravan (with a brand new guarantee) you should have bought one.

    It would be no different if you bought a car second hand.

    At least the seller is agreeing to repair the faults you have identified.
    Originally posted by Moneyineptitude
    That's nonsense. You have considerable rights against a trade seller, but unfortunately after the first 30 days that does not include a refund.

    This might help: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act
    • neilmcl
    • By neilmcl 5th Oct 16, 9:34 AM
    • 8,634 Posts
    • 5,660 Thanks
    neilmcl
    That's nonsense. You have considerable rights against a trade seller, but unfortunately after the first 30 days that does not automatically include a refund.

    This might help: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act
    Originally posted by Doc N
    Fixed that for you. A (full) refund is still an optional remedy up to 6 months.
    • forgotmyname
    • By forgotmyname 6th Oct 16, 12:25 AM
    • 23,348 Posts
    • 9,200 Thanks
    forgotmyname
    Hi, thanks for the reply. We paid £15,500 by bank transfer and the faults we have had so far are:

    Some other side of the fence thoughts.

    Roof leak 3 times despite repairs. Leaks can be a pain to replace

    Water heater no longer works. Did you switch it on before priming?

    Brakes faulty. What is actually wrong with the brakes?

    Leisure battery faulty. Whats wrong with it? Is the charger working? Are you pulling more power than the charger puts out?

    Broken bed. Was it broken when your bought it? How did it fail? Ive broken a caravan bed. Messing about with the kids and the lip failed, not a desighn flaw but misuse.

    Wet room floor floods as drain is higher than floor level. Presume it was higher than the floor level before you bought it?

    Numerous internal lights not working. Replace the bulbs?

    Room divider fell apart. Define fell apart. What material?

    Door locked itself and we had to break in. How did it lock itself? Whats faulty?

    We have given them 4 opportunities to repair faults but more keep happening every time the caravan is used.
    Originally posted by dentsp
    OK i typed all that and my message is too short
    Punctuation, Spelling and Grammar will be used sparingly. Due to rising costs of inflation.

    My contribution to MSE. Other contributions will only be used if they cost me nothing.

    Due to me being a tight git.
    • david a
    • By david a 10th Oct 16, 3:31 PM
    • 82 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    david a
    Firstly nothing bought from a dealer can be sold as seen. The dealer knows this hence why he had made repairs.

    After 30 days the onus is on the dealer to prove the faults were not there when you purchased the caravan. As you say "more keep happening every time the caravan is used" suggests that they were not.

    If the company were to offer a refund I know with a car they can deduct for usage, not sure about a caravan. However I expect the refund would only be for the caravan not the extra work.

    Personally I would keep communications civil and rely on the dealers goodwill.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 10th Oct 16, 4:04 PM
    • 10,207 Posts
    • 7,366 Thanks
    unholyangel
    Firstly nothing bought from a dealer can be sold as seen. The dealer knows this hence why he had made repairs.

    After 30 days the onus is on the dealer to prove the faults were not there when you purchased the caravan. As you say "more keep happening every time the caravan is used" suggests that they were not.

    If the company were to offer a refund I know with a car they can deduct for usage, not sure about a caravan. However I expect the refund would only be for the caravan not the extra work.

    Personally I would keep communications civil and rely on the dealers goodwill.
    Originally posted by david a

    (10)No deduction may be made if the final right to reject is exercised in the first 6 months (see subsection (11)), unless—

    (a)the goods consist of a motor vehicle, or
    (12)In subsection (10)(a) “motor vehicle”—

    (a)in relation to Great Britain, has the same meaning as in the Road Traffic Act 1988 (see sections 185 to 194 of that Act);

    (b)in relation to Northern Ireland, has the same meaning as in the Road Traffic (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 (SI 1995/2994 (NI 18)) (see Parts I and V of that Order).

    (13)But a vehicle is not a motor vehicle for the purposes of subsection (10)(a) if it is constructed or adapted—

    (a)for the use of a person suffering from some physical defect or disability, and

    (b)so that it may only be used by one such person at any one time.
    So basically (if memory serves) "a mechanically propelled vehicle intended for use on the roads".
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • m0bov
    • By m0bov 10th Oct 16, 4:14 PM
    • 823 Posts
    • 540 Thanks
    m0bov
    OP needs to send a letter before action, detailing the faults, timeline and the repairs received. Its a criminal offence to deprive a customer of their legal rights. It might do well to remind the company, in polite terms, of this.
    I don't think you can push for a full refund, but if your unable to use the caravan and its not of satisfactory quality for the price paid and age, then you would have a claim. Give them 7 days to respond. I would also speak with CAB. Do you have legal cover for your home insurance? Union? There a lots of solicitors who offer x mins of free telephone consultancy out there.

    If you suffer any consequential losses (missed holidays, petrol for travel) then claim for this also.

    If you don't hear anything, then open a moneyclaim online. Good luck.
    • bryanb
    • By bryanb 10th Oct 16, 4:21 PM
    • 4,796 Posts
    • 3,501 Thanks
    bryanb
    So basically (if memory serves) "a mechanically propelled vehicle intended for use on the roads".
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    The OP states it is constructed or adapted for wheelchair.
    This is an open forum, anyone can post and I just did !
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 10th Oct 16, 4:50 PM
    • 10,207 Posts
    • 7,366 Thanks
    unholyangel
    The OP states it is constructed or adapted for wheelchair.
    Originally posted by bryanb
    Sorry but failing to see the relevance of what you've said. Can you elaborate?
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • bryanb
    • By bryanb 10th Oct 16, 4:54 PM
    • 4,796 Posts
    • 3,501 Thanks
    bryanb
    Sorry but failing to see the relevance of what you've said. Can you elaborate?
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Seems to me it's not a mechanically propelled vehicle - Para 13 of the post you quoted.
    This is an open forum, anyone can post and I just did !
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 10th Oct 16, 4:56 PM
    • 10,207 Posts
    • 7,366 Thanks
    unholyangel
    Seems to me it's not a mechanically propelled vehicle - Para 13 of the post you quoted.
    Originally posted by bryanb
    How does something being wheelchair accessible have any bearing on whether its a mechanically propelled vehicle or not?

    You need to read the second part - so it can only be used by 1 person!

    ETA: The exemption is so motorised wheelchairs are not considered motor vehicles for the purpose of the act. Not so that anything wheelchair accessible is exempt.
    Last edited by unholyangel; 10-10-2016 at 4:59 PM.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • bryanb
    • By bryanb 10th Oct 16, 5:01 PM
    • 4,796 Posts
    • 3,501 Thanks
    bryanb
    How does something being wheelchair accessible have any bearing on whether its a mechanically propelled vehicle or not?

    You need to read the second part - so it can only be used by 1 person!
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Sorry, missed that it's a & b.

    No idea how w/c accessible affects whether it is or not, I just looked at the quoted rules
    This is an open forum, anyone can post and I just did !
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