Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 1st Oct 16, 6:51 PM
    • 92Posts
    • 11Thanks
    SillyOne
    Taking annual leave on-site, on-call, and general boundary issues with employer
    • #1
    • 1st Oct 16, 6:51 PM
    Taking annual leave on-site, on-call, and general boundary issues with employer 1st Oct 16 at 6:51 PM
    I requested a day of annual leave to use for doing coursework for a course I am taking that is related to my career development, but not specifically relevant to this employer. Due to timescales of the course and workload, it was the only day I could take the leave.

    However, due to unexpected absence of others I would have to cover for, boss was ready to cancel the holiday. I really need to do that coursework so offered to come in "on the quiet" and do the coursework (on my own equipment) in our lesser-used other building so people wouldn't know I was around, and be "on call" with the boss in case anything came up. As it happens, I wasn't needed during that day (but didn't get to fully concentrate either).

    Since then there seems to always be an expectation of being oncall during leave (including having to give a phone number for an exam I was taking, which taking the phone call during the exam would mean forfeiting it- they didn't call, but didn't give 100% either as I was on edge about it). I don't think they are doing it deliberately to "sabotage" my chance of "escaping" or whatever.

    How should I have handled it differently and what to do now?
    Last edited by SillyOne; 24-10-2016 at 8:46 PM.
Page 4
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 17th Oct 16, 8:32 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    PS: I just finished a group CBT class on low self-esteem that was available through my local mental health service. Fascinating stuff and we talked a lot about communication styles, including passive and assertive communication. I'd thoroughly recommend a similar course.
    Originally posted by tiger eyes
    @tiger eyes - Can you expand? Where can I get access to a course like this (happy to pay a reasonable amount if that's what it takes). do I need to go via the GP?
    • Timpu
    • By Timpu 17th Oct 16, 8:32 PM
    • 175 Posts
    • 198 Thanks
    Timpu
    Enabling!!! I had to google it (yes...) but that is exactly it!!

    >> Enablers, rather than addicts, suffer the effects of the [addict's] behavior. Enabling is “removing the natural consequences to the addict of his or her behavior".
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    So, the next step. What can you do to stop enabling them? Don't pick up the report colleagues can't complete, stop covering for them so they learn to fend for themselves. Let management notice what a difference you make and appreciate you.
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 17th Oct 16, 8:35 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    So, the next step. What can you do to stop enabling them? Don't pick up the report colleagues can't complete, stop covering for them so they learn to fend for themselves. Let management notice what a difference you make and appreciate you.
    Originally posted by Timpu
    Every rational bone in my brain (?!) says to do this, but I know that if we fail even once then that's it for our group.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 17th Oct 16, 8:41 PM
    • 26,292 Posts
    • 15,806 Thanks
    getmore4less
    How well documented is the process for producing these reports that are so important?
    • baldelectrician
    • By baldelectrician 17th Oct 16, 8:46 PM
    • 2,022 Posts
    • 1,232 Thanks
    baldelectrician
    Every rational bone in my brain (?!) says to do this, but I know that if we fail even once then that's it for our group.
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    You are not your group, you cannot be accountable for their actions.


    I run my own business now as I realised that my kids were getting distant with me as I was always away.
    When I worked for someone else I was away from home at 6.30am and back at 7.30 pm. Now I start at 9am and finish about 4pm with time for lunch in between.
    Now I see my kids every morning on their way to school / college



    I now take 2 weeks off at Christmas and make time for family stuff.
    I had my daughter at my work today (she is 13 and off school till tomorrow), we took a long lunch and went to a restaurant for something nice.
    All in a decent day- she even earned extra pocket money from her mum to go out to an event with her brother this weekend
    Last edited by baldelectrician; 17-10-2016 at 8:48 PM.
    baldly going on...
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 17th Oct 16, 8:47 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    How well documented is the process for producing these reports that are so important?
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Semi-well-documented. There are a few cases of "institutional knowledge" and some (70% at least) documented in Word document SOPs (standard operating procedures) However in the past inexperienced colleagues have complained to the boss that when they asked me how to do something I referred them in the first instance to "have you looked and followed the SOP" and apparently that was 'Not Helpful'. So no matter how well documented it is; I still have to be able to deal with everything!

    Edited to add: I know that the supplied SOP provides 95% at least of the knowledge needed to do that task, the other 5% is "escalations" etc or other unexpected situations.
    Last edited by SillyOne; 17-10-2016 at 8:54 PM.
    • baldelectrician
    • By baldelectrician 17th Oct 16, 8:52 PM
    • 2,022 Posts
    • 1,232 Thanks
    baldelectrician
    So no matter how well documented it is; I still have to be able to deal with everything!
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    That's your choice- you can switch your phone off


    I was away with the wife last weekend and my calls were diverted to a message stating I was not available and to call back Monday- no voicemail possible
    baldly going on...
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 17th Oct 16, 8:53 PM
    • 4,491 Posts
    • 5,657 Thanks
    theoretica
    Sounds like you might be best getting a different job with good terms and conditions and where you don't feel like the keystone - they will then have your notive period to get you to intensively train colleagues.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 17th Oct 16, 9:17 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    You are not your group, you cannot be accountable for their actions.
    Originally posted by baldelectrician
    But I am part of the group, and if we all fail there is no future for us.
    • 74jax
    • By 74jax 17th Oct 16, 9:25 PM
    • 4,410 Posts
    • 5,911 Thanks
    74jax
    But I am part of the group, and if we all fail there is no future for us.
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    What are the other group members doing to stop you falling.
    Forty and fabulous, well that's what my cards say....
    • baldelectrician
    • By baldelectrician 17th Oct 16, 10:37 PM
    • 2,022 Posts
    • 1,232 Thanks
    baldelectrician
    But I am part of the group, and if we all fail there is no future for us.
    Originally posted by SillyOne


    If you were the group that's fine.


    Sometimes people need to fail- he who never failed never learnt a lesson


    People need to learn from their failure


    As things stand you are essentially acting like a director (assuming the hassle and responsibilities) without the remuneration or respect.


    Keep working like this and you are on the road to poor health and burn out.


    What would happen if a loved one was unwell and you had to take 2 weeks off?
    baldly going on...
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 20th Oct 16, 9:17 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    If you were the group that's fine.
    Sometimes people need to fail- he who never failed never learnt a lesson
    People need to learn from their failure
    Originally posted by baldelectrician
    I understand that as a concept, but we are under scrutiny and I worry we won't get "another chance" if we screw up once. So I do whatever I can to keep the wheels on...

    As things stand you are essentially acting like a director (assuming the hassle and responsibilities) without the remuneration or respect.

    Keep working like this and you are on the road to poor health and burn out.
    Originally posted by baldelectrician
    Yes, many times I've put the company/department's interests ahead of my own and thought that was just part of the job really, but have had comments from a previous boss (before all this started) that I am taking on issues that are 'above my pay grade' (my paraphrasing) and it's their job rather than mine to worry about that, so am I saying they aren't doing their job?? My response: yes: you aren't, but someone has to. (I'm still here and they are not!)


    What would happen if a loved one was unwell and you had to take 2 weeks off?
    Originally posted by baldelectrician
    That is something that worries me, as I don't think I'd be able to go.
    • elsien
    • By elsien 20th Oct 16, 9:43 PM
    • 13,682 Posts
    • 33,222 Thanks
    elsien

    That is something that worries me, as I don't think I'd be able to go.
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    How could you not?
    I'm sorry, but no job is worth giving up time that you need for family crises such as these. They would cope. They would have to. You're doing neither yourself nor them any favours by continuing to promote the idea that you're indispensable.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 20th Oct 16, 10:24 PM
    • 36,817 Posts
    • 33,041 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    However in the past inexperienced colleagues have complained to the boss that when they asked me how to do something I referred them in the first instance to "have you looked and followed the SOP" and apparently that was 'Not Helpful'.
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    Been there, done that ... I now use the Snipping Tool to put pictures into important instruction documents. But I might also respond with something like "I will come and help with that once you've gone through the document and worked out what your questions are."

    A chimpanzee could now follow our payroll instructions. It's tedious, but I also follow them myself, in case the payroll bureau has changed anything from one month to the next.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Cutting Tax; Charities; Small Biz & Charity Organisers; and Silver Savers boards, which means I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. However, do remember, Board Guides don't read every post. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. It is not part of my role to deal with reportable posts.

    Any views are mine and are not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com
    Still knitting! Current projects: 2 shawls, 2 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure ...
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 20th Oct 16, 10:36 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    Been there, done that ... I now use the Snipping Tool to put pictures into important instruction documents. But I might also respond with something like "I will come and help with that once you've gone through the document and worked out what your questions are."

    A chimpanzee could now follow our payroll instructions. It's tedious, but I also follow them myself, in case the payroll bureau has changed anything from one month to the next.
    Originally posted by Savvy_Sue
    Makes me wonder what was the point in asking me to write the SOPs? - if when someone needs to carry out a task covered by a SOP, I need to walk them through it anyway because I can't refer them to it? What a good use of company time(!)

    The level of detail is enough that someone with a brain could follow it, doesn't require arcane knowledge of something that happened 10 years ago or whatever.

    Btw, if I had responded with something like "work through it and then come back with any questions" I would have been Talked To by the boss for being unhelpful.
    Last edited by SillyOne; 20-10-2016 at 10:39 PM.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 21st Oct 16, 7:33 AM
    • 26,292 Posts
    • 15,806 Thanks
    getmore4less
    As a massive generalisation... we produce a monthly/quarterly (or as agreed with the customer) "Widget* Report" relating to the performance of that customer's Widgets in their particular market and results of our testing of Their Widget vs Comparable Other Widgets, etc etc and write all of this up into a 'Death by Powerpoint' deliverable. The analysis has "routine" elements (run step A, B and C for Their Widget/Other Widget and write down the resulting X, Y and Z readings from the test equipment) but also interpretation and research etc.

    If something were to happen to me the impact would be that we don't have people internally to step up and complete the needed interpretation and research etc for the "Widget Report" in the needed timescales, and financial penalties from clients accordingly. Maybe one missed PowerPoint could be glossed over, but it would be a downward slide from there.

    * Widget is a specific tech product, but I don't want to give the detail of specifically what it is, on here.


    Edited to add: yeah, a Widget Report isn't going to change the world. But it changes the world for this company, whose entire revenue comes from selling Widget Reports.
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    You need to manage yourself out of this situation

    offload/delegate absolutely everything that others can do so you have fewer things that only you can do

    Your focus becomes training others and better planning of the tasks and process, it is a very good use of your time to stop doing the stuff others can do and improving productivity of the group by showing those that get stuck how to do the job(with the documented process) and not do it yourself.

    You should get to the point quite quickly where you can go on holiday, the day after a widget report comes out, for 2 weeks you then have the rest of the month to pick up the pieces and get the next one out.
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 21st Oct 16, 8:55 AM
    • 1,099 Posts
    • 1,504 Thanks
    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    Makes me wonder what was the point in asking me to write the SOPs? - if when someone needs to carry out a task covered by a SOP, I need to walk them through it anyway because I can't refer them to it? What a good use of company time(!)

    The level of detail is enough that someone with a brain could follow it, doesn't require arcane knowledge of something that happened 10 years ago or whatever.

    Btw, if I had responded with something like "work through it and then come back with any questions" I would have been Talked To by the boss for being unhelpful.
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    You know, your position makes very little sense. You constantly carp at your colleagues and employers for being so unpleasant to you, and then in the next breath say that you aren't going to go off to the obviously better things that await you because you don't want to desert them.

    You claim to have a low sense of self esteem and then announce how critically important you are to the company and how much more employable than everyone else.

    If this is a true and accurate representation of any situation then you've been told what to do 100 times. Just leave and get the better job you say you know you can. If you don't want to leave, stop banging on about it. What better answer do you expect to receive?
    • YouAsked
    • By YouAsked 21st Oct 16, 10:00 AM
    • 95 Posts
    • 105 Thanks
    YouAsked

    You claim to have a low sense of self esteem and then announce how critically important you are to the company and how much more employable than everyone else.
    Originally posted by ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    Actually that's really common - people with low self esteem can also have an over-inflated sense of the impact of their own actions. For example if I fell over, it's just that - me falling over, but for someone else, it's the worst thing in the world, so embarrassing, everyone in the street will have been looking at them etc.
    • duchy
    • By duchy 21st Oct 16, 10:19 AM
    • 17,862 Posts
    • 45,174 Thanks
    duchy
    I understand that as a concept, but we are under scrutiny and I worry we won't get "another chance" if we screw up once. So I do whatever I can to keep the wheels on...



    Yes, many times I've put the company/department's interests ahead of my own and thought that was just part of the job really, but have had comments from a previous boss (before all this started) that I am taking on issues that are 'above my pay grade' (my paraphrasing) and it's their job rather than mine to worry about that, so am I saying they aren't doing their job?? My response: yes: you aren't, but someone has to. (I'm still here and they are not!)




    That is something that worries me, as I don't think I'd be able to go.
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    Are you single ?
    My ex husband had your attitude . He lost his marriage, his son and his self respect with that mindset. He realised too late and now bitterly regrets it.

    No one ever said on their deathbed "I wish I'd spent more time in the office". If you are as much of an asset as an employee as you say then surely there are many other organisations who would value you as an employee. Why not go work for them instead and have a life as well?
    I Would Rather Climb A Mountain Than Crawl Into A Hole

    Apparently having a "Quirky and Hipster" wedding
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 21st Oct 16, 7:22 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    You need to manage yourself out of this situation

    offload/delegate absolutely everything that others can do so you have fewer things that only you can do

    Your focus becomes training others and better planning of the tasks and process, it is a very good use of your time to stop doing the stuff others can do and improving productivity of the group by showing those that get stuck how to do the job(with the documented process) and not do it yourself.

    You should get to the point quite quickly where you can go on holiday, the day after a widget report comes out, for 2 weeks you then have the rest of the month to pick up the pieces and get the next one out.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    I have tried this, I'm great at delegating (believe it or not based on what I've written here...!) assuming I have competent people to delegate to. And my definition of 'competent' isn't a perfectionist's view. Just pragmatic -- but the people I have available to offload to, are either incapable or unwilling and I can't figure out which. Many a time, I have delegated things to others and they do understand the principle, but then make stupid mistakes due to lack of attention to detail.

    You know, your position makes very little sense. You constantly carp at your colleagues and employers for being so unpleasant to you, and then in the next breath say that you aren't going to go off to the obviously better things that await you because you don't want to desert them.

    You claim to have a low sense of self esteem and then announce how critically important you are to the company and how much more employable than everyone else.

    If this is a true and accurate representation of any situation then you've been told what to do 100 times. Just leave and get the better job you say you know you can. If you don't want to leave, stop banging on about it. What better answer do you expect to receive?
    Originally posted by ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    Thanks for the somewhat harsh words ScorpiondeRooftrouser, I can totally understand what you're saying! It is a contradictory attitude! Although (like posted below) there can be a low/high self esteem thing going on. I know I should 'Just Leave' but somehow my guilt overcomes my desire to move on!!

    Btw, my assessment of myself as much more employable than the rest, while admittedly subjective, is pretty close to the truth.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,483Posts Today

6,032Users online

Martin's Twitter