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  • FIRST POST
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 1st Oct 16, 6:51 PM
    • 91Posts
    • 11Thanks
    SillyOne
    Taking annual leave on-site, on-call, and general boundary issues with employer
    • #1
    • 1st Oct 16, 6:51 PM
    Taking annual leave on-site, on-call, and general boundary issues with employer 1st Oct 16 at 6:51 PM
    I requested a day of annual leave to use for doing coursework for a course I am taking that is related to my career development, but not specifically relevant to this employer. Due to timescales of the course and workload, it was the only day I could take the leave.

    However, due to unexpected absence of others I would have to cover for, boss was ready to cancel the holiday. I really need to do that coursework so offered to come in "on the quiet" and do the coursework (on my own equipment) in our lesser-used other building so people wouldn't know I was around, and be "on call" with the boss in case anything came up. As it happens, I wasn't needed during that day (but didn't get to fully concentrate either).

    Since then there seems to always be an expectation of being oncall during leave (including having to give a phone number for an exam I was taking, which taking the phone call during the exam would mean forfeiting it- they didn't call, but didn't give 100% either as I was on edge about it). I don't think they are doing it deliberately to "sabotage" my chance of "escaping" or whatever.

    How should I have handled it differently and what to do now?
    Last edited by SillyOne; 24-10-2016 at 8:46 PM.
Page 3
    • duchy
    • By duchy 4th Oct 16, 8:26 PM
    • 17,817 Posts
    • 45,055 Thanks
    duchy
    I learned a long time ago that if you say yes all the time employers don't appreciate it they just take you for granted.

    Say no once in a while , or say yes with conditions, eg can you cover. X tomorrow morning ....no but I can cover it in the afternoon. Either they'll find someone else to do it or accept your conditional offer.

    I had a boss who gave the people who said no a terrible time but those who said yes only when it suited them he paid better and respected more. How much you value yourself has a direct correlation to how much someone else values you , whether it's a boss or a lover.
    I Would Rather Climb A Mountain Than Crawl Into A Hole

    Apparently having a "Quirky and Hipster" wedding
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 4th Oct 16, 8:29 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    How much you value yourself has a direct correlation to how much someone else values you , whether it's a boss or a lover.
    Originally posted by duchy
    You're right, my self esteem is rock bottom and rationally I recognise that which is even more frustrating!! I could easily do better with conditions and salary, but stay out of some sense of loyalty to the others (who would be lost without me picking up stuff all the time) and.. dare I say it... stubbornness and determination!
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 4th Oct 16, 8:42 PM
    • 4,476 Posts
    • 5,631 Thanks
    theoretica
    True, and the business isn't "life or death" (e.g. medics) by any means, but the fact is that immediate (monthly) deadlines wouldn't be met and the company would have a massive loss of revenue as a result, if I were hit by the proverbial bus!
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    I think you should arrange to take holiday and let them either arrange deadlines around it or miss them to rub their situation in and see what they then do!
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • Sleazy
    • By Sleazy 4th Oct 16, 8:44 PM
    • 2,692 Posts
    • 2,487 Thanks
    Sleazy
    What would happen if something happened to you (car accident for example) and you were in hospital? The company would continue to operate without you during your absence, and wouldn't be able to call on your expertise.

    It's the same when you're on leave - you are not available. You need to be clear on this matter and then communicate to your employer without words if necessary - your being 'incommunicado' during periods of leave will ensure that they soon get the point!
    *** IF IN DOUBT, BLAME BREXIT ***
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 4th Oct 16, 9:00 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    What would happen if something happened to you (car accident for example) and you were in hospital? The company would continue to operate without you during your absence, and wouldn't be able to call on your expertise.
    Originally posted by Sleazy
    As a massive generalisation... we produce a monthly/quarterly (or as agreed with the customer) "Widget* Report" relating to the performance of that customer's Widgets in their particular market and results of our testing of Their Widget vs Comparable Other Widgets, etc etc and write all of this up into a 'Death by Powerpoint' deliverable. The analysis has "routine" elements (run step A, B and C for Their Widget/Other Widget and write down the resulting X, Y and Z readings from the test equipment) but also interpretation and research etc.

    If something were to happen to me the impact would be that we don't have people internally to step up and complete the needed interpretation and research etc for the "Widget Report" in the needed timescales, and financial penalties from clients accordingly. Maybe one missed PowerPoint could be glossed over, but it would be a downward slide from there.

    * Widget is a specific tech product, but I don't want to give the detail of specifically what it is, on here.


    Edited to add: yeah, a Widget Report isn't going to change the world. But it changes the world for this company, whose entire revenue comes from selling Widget Reports.
    Last edited by SillyOne; 04-10-2016 at 9:07 PM.
    • duchy
    • By duchy 5th Oct 16, 12:22 AM
    • 17,817 Posts
    • 45,055 Thanks
    duchy
    I'd go and work for a better company. You KNOW you can do far better.
    I Would Rather Climb A Mountain Than Crawl Into A Hole

    Apparently having a "Quirky and Hipster" wedding
    • tiger eyes
    • By tiger eyes 5th Oct 16, 12:53 AM
    • 922 Posts
    • 2,330 Thanks
    tiger eyes
    Apologies for the bold, but...

    OP, you list a large number of factors causing this situation, and every single one of them is your employer's problem. Them being unable to manage without you is their problem. You're unavailable. They need to fix their own problems. If they're incapable of doing that, it's time to find another job.
    • tiger eyes
    • By tiger eyes 5th Oct 16, 12:59 AM
    • 922 Posts
    • 2,330 Thanks
    tiger eyes
    PS: I just finished a group CBT class on low self-esteem that was available through my local mental health service. Fascinating stuff and we talked a lot about communication styles, including passive and assertive communication. I'd thoroughly recommend a similar course.
    • 20aday
    • By 20aday 5th Oct 16, 8:51 AM
    • 1,707 Posts
    • 689 Thanks
    20aday
    As a massive generalisation... we produce a monthly/quarterly (or as agreed with the customer) "Widget* Report" relating to the performance of that customer's Widgets in their particular market and results of our testing of Their Widget vs Comparable Other Widgets, etc etc and write all of this up into a 'Death by Powerpoint' deliverable. The analysis has "routine" elements (run step A, B and C for Their Widget/Other Widget and write down the resulting X, Y and Z readings from the test equipment) but also interpretation and research etc.

    If something were to happen to me the impact would be that we don't have people internally to step up and complete the needed interpretation and research etc for the "Widget Report" in the needed timescales, and financial penalties from clients accordingly. Maybe one missed PowerPoint could be glossed over, but it would be a downward slide from there.

    * Widget is a specific tech product, but I don't want to give the detail of specifically what it is, on here.


    Edited to add: yeah, a Widget Report isn't going to change the world. But it changes the world for this company, whose entire revenue comes from selling Widget Reports.
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    No disrespect to you personally but if there's no one else on the team who can help with the Widget Reports... whose fault is that? The company... or yours?

    The company, of course.
    It's not your credit score that counts, it's your account conduct and credit history.
    • takman
    • By takman 5th Oct 16, 8:56 AM
    • 1,521 Posts
    • 1,159 Thanks
    takman
    You're right, my self esteem is rock bottom and rationally I recognise that which is even more frustrating!! I could easily do better with conditions and salary, but stay out of some sense of loyalty to the others (who would be lost without me picking up stuff all the time) and.. dare I say it... stubbornness and determination!
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    I dont know why your so loyal to the company and the other people when they don't appreciate it and treat you so badly!.

    At my workplace I often work on until late or have to go on an overnight trip with no notice due to business needs. I'm happy to do this but it works both ways because if I really need tommorow off as holiday they will let me no matter how much they need me and they won't even ask me through reason if I don't want to tell them!. I have also never had holiday cancelled and never had any holiday request declined in the entire time I have worked here.
    If they were messing me about with holidays like they do with you I definetly wouldn't be doing them any favours at the last minute.
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 5th Oct 16, 9:29 AM
    • 1,096 Posts
    • 1,503 Thanks
    ScorpiondeRooftrouser

    Why aren't others able to step in, one might ask... a combination of not paying enough to get the right people in the first place, and lack of opportunity to train people due to always being in "crisis" mode.
    Originally posted by SillyOne

    No, it's because they've never had to, because you do it all the time.
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 5th Oct 16, 9:32 AM
    • 1,096 Posts
    • 1,503 Thanks
    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    As a massive generalisation... we produce a monthly/quarterly (or as agreed with the customer) "Widget* Report" relating to the performance of that customer's Widgets in their particular market and results of our testing of Their Widget vs Comparable Other Widgets, etc etc and write all of this up into a 'Death by Powerpoint' deliverable. The analysis has "routine" elements (run step A, B and C for Their Widget/Other Widget and write down the resulting X, Y and Z readings from the test equipment) but also interpretation and research etc.

    If something were to happen to me the impact would be that we don't have people internally to step up and complete the needed interpretation and research etc for the "Widget Report" in the needed timescales, and financial penalties from clients accordingly. Maybe one missed PowerPoint could be glossed over, but it would be a downward slide from there.

    * Widget is a specific tech product, but I don't want to give the detail of specifically what it is, on here.


    Edited to add: yeah, a Widget Report isn't going to change the world. But it changes the world for this company, whose entire revenue comes from selling Widget Reports.
    Originally posted by SillyOne

    Oh please.

    To find out how true this is, ask for a 25% increase in salary immediately, and say you are leaving if it's not forthcoming.

    If they say no, you will know that you are not as important as you think you are, and that the business knows it can cope without you even if they keep telling you they can't.
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 17th Oct 16, 7:34 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    Re: it's the company's problem rather than mine - Yes, but it becomes my problem. I'm the person currently in this role for better or worse, and it falls to me to solve things or not as the case may be. The inevitable post mortem (more like raking over the coals) comes immediately after if something fails! Also if it fails, people will be out (not me immediately) and somehow I feel some obligation to them because I don't know where they would work otherwise.

    @ScorpiondeRooftrouser - They have "had" to step in in the past and failed, but I have always been a 'backstop' (unknown to them) They would happily let it fail, and shrug it off! Because they are being paid anyway! (For now.......)
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 17th Oct 16, 7:55 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    Oh please.

    To find out how true this is, ask for a 25% increase in salary immediately, and say you are leaving if it's not forthcoming.

    If they say no, you will know that you are not as important as you think you are, and that the business knows it can cope without you even if they keep telling you they can't.
    Originally posted by ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    I did a variant of this and there was scrambling, promises and then nothing. I was stupid and fell for it. But still they are dependent on me as even after this, they didn't put in place any "redundancy" or backup plan!

    Btw "Oh please" seems to suggest I am just inflating my own ego or such like. If only!! - I would like nothing better than to be able to leave, guilt free.
    • Timpu
    • By Timpu 17th Oct 16, 7:58 PM
    • 174 Posts
    • 197 Thanks
    Timpu
    ...somehow I feel some obligation to them because I don't know where they would work otherwise
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    ...They would happily let it fail, and shrug it off! Because they are being paid anyway! (For now.......)
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    Am I reading this right??? Apologies if not, it's been a long day.

    If these people don't care about the consequences for themselves, why do you? Let them look after themselves, they are grown ups and won't thank you. You're being too kind and making a rod for your own back IMHO.

    I do feel for you and wish you luck SillyOne
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 17th Oct 16, 8:04 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    Am I reading this right??? Apologies if not, it's been a long day.

    If these people don't care about the consequences for themselves, why do you? Let them look after themselves, they are grown ups and won't thank you. You're being too kind and making a rod for your own back IMHO.

    I do feel for you and wish you luck SillyOne
    Originally posted by Timpu
    Yes you are reading it right. Obviously I don't know what goes on in people's heads but how it seems outwardly is that they don't care about the outcome for the company itself, but wonder "how will I pay my bills etc? I dunno, sadface" etc - as if the profitability of the company and their employment are somehow decoupled. It isn't a guilt trip from others - more of a sense of learned helplessness !!!!lessness* I think.

    * the forum thing censored my language! F e c k lesness - a perfectly cromulent word.

    To put it another way - should I just stand by and let the company run itself into the ground and put people out of work (some significant % of whom will struggle after as they won't be able to get other jobs) or should I do what I can? Even at my own cost?
    Last edited by SillyOne; 17-10-2016 at 8:15 PM.
    • elsien
    • By elsien 17th Oct 16, 8:14 PM
    • 13,654 Posts
    • 33,112 Thanks
    elsien
    Your loyalty is misplaced.
    If there is a down turn and they're looking for redundancies, or something else happens that makes you less valuable to them you will be out without a second thought regardless of what you believe you have offered to the company in the meantime.
    I found that one out the hard way.
    But while you continue to make excuses for their lack of action nothing will change and they will continue to walk over you. The ball's in your court.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 17th Oct 16, 8:15 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    We are under review and I'm "forgetting" my own overtime for example, in an attempt to make it look more profitable than it is. Overtime is payable in theory, that is if you remember that you did it......! Of course every hour is accounted for and charged by the others because they will stay late, but only if it's paid?! So on paper if anyone looks at this, I am doing fewer hours than the others so they must be more committed. Then I should be the one pushed out (but then I have the best chance of finding another role).
    Last edited by SillyOne; 17-10-2016 at 8:20 PM.
    • Timpu
    • By Timpu 17th Oct 16, 8:17 PM
    • 174 Posts
    • 197 Thanks
    Timpu
    Yes you are reading it right. Obviously I don't know what goes on in people's heads but how it seems outwardly is that they don't care about the outcome for the company itself, but wonder "how will I pay my bills etc? I dunno, sadface" etc - as if the profitability of the company and their employment are somehow decoupled. It isn't a guilt trip from others - more of a sense of learned helplessness !!!!lessness* I think.

    * the forum thing censored my language! F e c k lesness - a perfectly cromulent word.
    Originally posted by SillyOne
    Love forum censorship

    To some people, a job is a job, they do the minimum in return for the pay. Nothing wrong in that at all, they are fulfilling their obligations. You seem to me to be deeply caring and able. These are admirable traits but skill lies in choosing where you apply them. You're being kind to those who are happy to take he mickey out of you. You don't deserve that so, speaking brutally, stop enabling them.
    • SillyOne
    • By SillyOne 17th Oct 16, 8:24 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    SillyOne
    You're being kind to those who are happy to take he mickey out of you. You don't deserve that so, speaking brutally, stop enabling them.
    Originally posted by Timpu
    Enabling!!! I had to google it (yes...) but that is exactly it!!

    >> Enablers, rather than addicts, suffer the effects of the [addict's] behavior. Enabling is “removing the natural consequences to the addict of his or her behavior".
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