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  • FIRST POST
    • THEPUMA
    • By THEPUMA 30th Sep 16, 5:15 PM
    • 16Posts
    • 3Thanks
    THEPUMA
    NCP Parking Fine
    • #1
    • 30th Sep 16, 5:15 PM
    NCP Parking Fine 30th Sep 16 at 5:15 PM
    Hi all


    I'm sure the information I need is somewhere on this forum but I have tried to find it unfortunately and there is quite a lot of cash at stake so I would really appreciate some advice!


    The circumstances are that my wife has parked at an NCP car park by a train station for years, always paying for her parking.


    Recently, a sign was put up saying that they were introducing an ANPR system which you registered for and automatically takes payment each time you park.


    She went on to the website and tried to register but got a message saying you are already registered. She therefore assumed she was OK and continued to park there as normal.


    Our post all goes in a mailbox which we empty periodically. The next time I emptied it there were 4 parking tickets. We have subsequently received a further 3. All for £60 if we pay within 28 days.


    Before coming on this website, I submitted an appeal on the NCP system. I don't have a record of the exact wording but essentially it described the situation as above.


    I have just received rejections to all of the appeals and been invited to pay up or appeal to POPLA.


    What do I do now?!


    Many thanks for any help you can give.


    THEPUMA
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 30th Sep 16, 7:26 PM
    • 36,422 Posts
    • 73,211 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 30th Sep 16, 7:26 PM
    • #2
    • 30th Sep 16, 7:26 PM
    You need to make a PoPLA appeal for each ticket. Read the POPLA Decisions Sticky thread at the top of the page and base your appeals on the most recent successful ones.
    Unfortunately it looks like you gave away the driver's details which means you gave away a valuable appeal point. Never mind, there are still a number of points you can use such as inadequate signage, not the landowner, and n standing to bring charges.

    The other thing you need to do is to determine if Byelaws are applicable at the car park. If that is the case you need to run the clock down for six months as that is the deadline for the Train Operation Company only to start court proceedings, and then only for trespass.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Sep 16, 7:39 PM
    • 40,355 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 30th Sep 16, 7:39 PM
    • #3
    • 30th Sep 16, 7:39 PM
    Before coming on this website, I submitted an appeal on the NCP system. I don't have a record of the exact wording but essentially it described the situation as above.
    You appealed but your wife was driving? Then YOU got the POPLA codes in your name even though you were not the driver? If so, GOOD! Sounds like you played it perfectly if your wife did NOT appeal and yet you did (are you the keeper of the car on the V5?).

    Search the forum for 'NCP POPLA' for recent examples (only look at Summer 2016 ones).

    Read the most recent posts in POPLA Decisions' (top of the forum) as Fruitcake has already advised. Two weeks ago I posted up some template appeal points for POPLA and you can use four or five of them...

    Show us your draft, you can win each and every one!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • THEPUMA
    • By THEPUMA 30th Sep 16, 8:58 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    THEPUMA
    • #4
    • 30th Sep 16, 8:58 PM
    • #4
    • 30th Sep 16, 8:58 PM
    Thanks both.

    Sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I appealed on my wife's behalf so put her name etc on the appeal.

    Just got another one through tonight!

    I'll have a read of what you suggest.

    Cheers

    THEPUMA
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 1st Oct 16, 1:41 PM
    • 2,240 Posts
    • 2,724 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    • #5
    • 1st Oct 16, 1:41 PM
    • #5
    • 1st Oct 16, 1:41 PM
    have you sorted , or tried to sort out the car registration ?

    because it looks like you are going to keep getting them if your wife keeps parking there ....

    who do you register with?

    People with lots of PPC's are often targets for court action because of the total amount .... so try and stop any further while you deal with the one's you have already got.

    good luck

    Ralph
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Oct 16, 2:06 PM
    • 40,355 Posts
    • 52,228 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 1st Oct 16, 2:06 PM
    • #6
    • 1st Oct 16, 2:06 PM
    Just got another one through tonight!
    THIS TIME, appeal any new ones properly, as the registered keeper as per the NEWBIES thread. Nothing about the driver.

    I appealed on my wife's behalf so put her name etc on the appeal.
    So the POPLA code is addressed to your wife as the driver in that first case?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Philstringy
    • By Philstringy 1st Oct 16, 11:03 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Philstringy
    • #7
    • 1st Oct 16, 11:03 PM
    • #7
    • 1st Oct 16, 11:03 PM
    hope you don't mind me jumping on this?

    I got a ticket today at Upminster train station car park run by NCP

    I parked on double yellows in the car park as there were no spaces, I was running late and there was a large queue to get out.

    Got back to the car and there was a ticket...I had already paid the car park fee of £2.70 which entitled me to park there all day. As for for not giving details of the driver (me) I paid for the parking on the ringo app which obviously comes off my debit card in my name. Therefore if they went in depth to check they'd know the registered keeper and the payee were one and the same.

    Pay up or ignore or appeal? £75 fine but reduced to £50 if I pay quickly.

    Sorry I read the newbie thread but got lost.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 1st Oct 16, 11:57 PM
    • 4,110 Posts
    • 4,716 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #8
    • 1st Oct 16, 11:57 PM
    • #8
    • 1st Oct 16, 11:57 PM
    hope you don't mind me jumping on this?

    I got a ticket today at Upminster train station car park run by NCP

    I parked on double yellows in the car park as there were no spaces, I was running late and there was a large queue to get out.

    Got back to the car and there was a ticket...I had already paid the car park fee of £2.70 which entitled me to park there all day. As for for not giving details of the driver (me) I paid for the parking on the ringo app which obviously comes off my debit card in my name. Therefore if they went in depth to check they'd know the registered keeper and the payee were one and the same.

    Pay up or ignore or appeal? £75 fine but reduced to £50 if I pay quickly.

    Sorry I read the newbie thread but got lost.
    Originally posted by Philstringy
    Hi, please do not jump in on a thread.
    It's easy, start your own thread for the attention you require
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Oct 16, 11:59 PM
    • 40,355 Posts
    • 52,228 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 1st Oct 16, 11:59 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Oct 16, 11:59 PM
    Sorry I read the newbie thread but got lost.
    Originally posted by Philstringy
    Read it again tomorrow, it's very easy to appeal and beat NCP. I didn't write the NEWBIES thread just to have to re-write and explain it on other threads to people who are put off by some words or are looking for a quick fix on a phone...honestly, it isn't difficult to copy & paste the appeal I've written for people to use.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • THEPUMA
    • By THEPUMA 11th Oct 16, 5:11 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    THEPUMA
    With sincere thanks to Coupon-mad for providing the templates on the Successful POPLA appeal thread, below is what I plan to submit in relation to all of my penalties.


    Is this overkill or is it sensible to include three grounds of appeal. In relation to the last point, I have no clue who owns the land. Should I submit anyway or should I try to find out whether they own the land?


    Many thanks, especially to Coupon-mad. I owe you a drink or ten!


    Dear Sirs

    I hereby formally appeal against the parking charges issued to me by NCP on three grounds. Firstly, that the signs in the car park are not sufficiently prominent, secondly that the operator has not shown that the owner of the car was the driver of the car at the time in question and finally that there is no evidence of landowner authority for the charge. Please see full detail of the basis of appeal below:-

    The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself

    There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case.

    In the Beavis case, which turned on specific facts relating only to the signs at that site and the unique interests and intentions of the landowners, the signs were unusually clear and not a typical example for this notorious industry. The Supreme Court were keen to point out the decision related to that car park and those facts only:

    In the Beavis case, the £85 charge itself was in the largest font size with a contrasting colour background and the terms were legible, fairly concise and unambiguous. There were 'large lettering' signs at the entrance and all around the car park, according to the Judges.

    Here is the 'Beavis case' sign as a comparison to the signs under dispute in this case:

    This case, by comparison, does not demonstrate an example of the 'large lettering' and 'prominent signage' that impressed the Supreme Court Judges and swayed them into deciding that in the specific car park in the Beavis case alone, a contract and 'agreement on the charge' existed.

    Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately obvious as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.

    It is vital to observe, since 'adequate notice of the parking charge' is mandatory under the POFA Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice, these signs do not clearly mention the parking charge which is hidden in small print (and does not feature at all on some of the signs). Areas of this site are unsigned and there are no full terms displayed - i.e. with the sum of the parking charge itself in large lettering - at the entrance either, so it cannot be assumed that a driver drove past and could read a legible sign, nor parked near one.

    This case is more similar to the signage in POPLA decision 5960956830 on 2.6.16, where the Assessor Rochelle Merritt found as fact that signs in a similar size font in a busy car park where other unrelated signs were far larger, was inadequate:

    ''the signage is not of a good enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. [...] In addition the operators signs would not be clearly visible from a parking space [...] The appellant has raised other grounds for appeal but I have not dealt with these as I have allowed the appeal.''

    From the evidence I have seen so far, the terms appear to be displayed inadequately, in letters no more than about half an inch high, approximately. I put the operator to strict proof as to the size of the wording on their signs and the size of lettering for the most onerous term, the parking charge itself.

    The letters seem to be no larger than .40 font size going by this guide:

    As further evidence that this is inadequate notice, Letter Height Visibility is discussed here:

    ''When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. 1-2” letters (or smaller) would work just fine. However, if you are hanging banners and want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3” or even larger.''

    ...and the same chart is reproduced here:

    ''When designing an outdoor sign for your business keep in mind the readability of the letters. Letters always look smaller when mounted high onto an outdoor wall''.

    ''...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance.''

    So, a letter height of just half an inch, showing the terms and the 'charge' and placed high on a wall or pole or buried in far too crowded small print, is woefully inadequate in an outdoor car park. Given that letters look smaller when high up on a wall or pole, as the angle renders the words less readable due to the perspective and height, you would have to stand right in front of it and still need a stepladder (and perhaps a torch and/or magnifying glass) to be able to read the terms.

    Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':

    (1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.
    (2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.

    The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.

    This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports my argument, not the operator's case:

    This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.

    So, for this appeal, I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this.

    The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge

    In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person.

    Where a charge is aimed only at a driver then, of course, no other party can be told to pay. I am the appellant throughout (as I am entitled to be), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a parking charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a valid NTK.

    As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4. This applies regardless of when the first appeal was made because the fact remains I am only the keeper and ONLY Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a keeper appellant to be deemed to be the liable party.

    The burden of proof rests with the Operator, because they cannot use the POFA in this case, to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.

    Furthermore, the vital matter of full compliance with the POFA 2012 was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:

    Understanding keeper liability
    “There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

    There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass.''

    Therefore, no lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from myself as keeper of the vehicle, where an operator is NOT attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    This exact finding was made in 6061796103 against ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:
    ''I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal.''

    No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

    Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

    Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and of course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge (which cannot be assumed to be the sum in small print on a sign because template private parking terms and sums have been known not to match the actual landowner agreement).

    Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

    7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

    7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

    a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 11th Oct 16, 5:34 PM
    • 5,344 Posts
    • 4,873 Thanks
    pappa golf
    war and piece


    why not say BYLAW LAND and the case will be put on hold ***, as per all other bylaw cases , this will take several more weeks/months , the either kicked out or a POPLa appeal that will take a month , bylaw charges must be submitted to a magistrates court within 6 mths of the incident , by the train Co , not the PPC


    why rush , time it out




    **


    POPLA home page


    Adjournment of cases involving Byelaws

    POPLA has decided to adjourn all cases on which the parking operator has asked the motorist to make a payment in respect of alleged breach of Byelaws. This is following complaints to POPLA and ISPA that POPLA has no authority to look at these appeals. We are considering our position and will make a further statement in due course. We do not anticipate the cases to be adjourned for more than two months from 1 September 2016. Parking operators should not pursue payment while the cases are adjourned. During this period, motorists must still submit their appeal within 28 days of the date of the POPLA code if they want POPLA to consider their appeal. If you have already submitted your appeal you do not need to take further action.
    Last edited by pappa golf; 11-10-2016 at 5:37 PM.
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • THEPUMA
    • By THEPUMA 11th Oct 16, 5:37 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    THEPUMA
    Hi. Sorry I've no idea what this (BYELAW LAND) means. Where can I read up on this option?
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 11th Oct 16, 5:40 PM
    • 5,344 Posts
    • 4,873 Thanks
    pappa golf
    gi and look at the station for any RAILWAY signs that mention BYLAW 14 , or do a google for that station and bylaws
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • THEPUMA
    • By THEPUMA 11th Oct 16, 6:04 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    THEPUMA
    A Google search brought up this thread http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5400729


    which seems to suggest that because it is a London Underground station it is subject to an equivalent of Byelaw 14.


    I haven't managed to read up on this subject yet so still have no clue what the relevance of being subject or not to Byelaw 14 or an equivalent.


    If anyone would be happy to enlighten me I would be eternally grateful. If not, I'll try to research it later.


    Many thanks for all of your helpful responses.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 11th Oct 16, 6:07 PM
    • 5,344 Posts
    • 4,873 Thanks
    pappa golf
    only a train company can bring charges on bylaw land , bylaw land does not come under the protection of freedom act , its non relivent land


    in a lot of cases the "charge" is like asking you to pay a bribe not to prosecute you


    others will elaborate more
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Oct 16, 7:27 PM
    • 40,355 Posts
    • 52,228 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You should look at mixu's thread (no link given!).

    His win is recent & shows the POPLA appeal. You can find the thread on the first few pages or look up his username & find his threads.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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