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  • FIRST POST
    gsamsa
    0 WOW
    Electrical goods=2 year minimum warranty?
    • #1
    • 16th Sep 07, 1:17 PM
    0 WOW
    Electrical goods=2 year minimum warranty? 16th Sep 07 at 1:17 PM
    Hi.

    We bought a kettle about 16 months ago, although it wasn't expensive I wonder if I can use the warranty to get it repaired under the Sale of Goods Act.

    In most of European Union countries the minimum warranty for ANY electrical good is 2 years, so I can reasonably argue that 2 years is the minimum term during which my kettle should work. If in other countries should it work for 2 years, why not in UK? Can I challengue the seller/manufacturer with these arguments? What do you think?
Page 1
  • dmg24
    • #2
    • 16th Sep 07, 1:21 PM
    • #2
    • 16th Sep 07, 1:21 PM
    In most of European Union countries the minimum warranty for ANY electrical good is 2 years, so I can reasonably argue that 2 years is the minimum term during which my kettle should work. If in other countries should it work for 2 years, why not in UK? Can I challengue the seller/manufacturer with these arguments?
    No, you can't use such an argument. Manufacturers/ retailers may be obliged to provide such a warranty in other countries.

    How much was the kettle?
  • gsamsa
    • #3
    • 16th Sep 07, 2:30 PM
    • #3
    • 16th Sep 07, 2:30 PM
    Just 20, but according to the sales of goods act the product must "be fit for its purpose and be of satisfactory quality". So, if in another countries must be fit for its purpose for 2 years, why not here? I know that advice about the sales of goods act giving by the government website says that we should take into consideration how much it costed. Imagine how stupid: a product manufacturer can guarantee their products for 2 years in EU but in UK only for a year. In fact, the manufacturer's (all of them) take advantage of the ambiguous statement of the sales of goods act, and I really think the government should establish a minimum warranty of 2 years for electrical devies regardless the cost.

    My thought about the European law of 2 year warranty is that it wasn't implemented in the UK because it was kind of implicit in the sales of goods act, so they didn't establish 2 year minimum warranty.

    How's possible that UK law is less restrictive than European law. So if I can buy the same good for the same price in UK or somewhere else in EU, I should go for the other country. Is this equality? In terms of trade and sales, UK must meet european requirements, isn't it?
  • CHRISSYG
    • #4
    • 16th Sep 07, 6:12 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Sep 07, 6:12 PM
    well said knowledgeman ,too many people look for fights when its just not worth the hassle if all you have to worry about is a kettle then things are ok
    2015 goals clear the following debts

    Debt 1 ------728 557 500 450 350 310
  • alwaysonthego
    • #5
    • 16th Sep 07, 6:20 PM
    • #5
    • 16th Sep 07, 6:20 PM
    ~I agree with the 2 posters above but it may be worth asking at the shop for a replacement, whether they give you one is another matter
  • wibbble
    • #6
    • 16th Sep 07, 6:31 PM
    • #6
    • 16th Sep 07, 6:31 PM
    In fact, the manufacturer's (all of them) take advantage of the ambiguous statement of the sales of goods act, and I really think the government should establish a minimum warranty of 2 years for electrical devies regardless the cost.
    Originally posted by gsamsa
    The manufacturer owes you exactly nothing. Manufacturer's warranties are goodwill gestures and there's no legal obligation on the manufacturer to do anything about anything you buy - from a 20 kettle to a 2000 TV.

    The Sales of Goods Act applies solely to the retailer - the person that SOLD you the item. You have no contract with the manufacturer.

    (Obviously, cases where the manufacturer retails directly to the public are different, but only because in those cases the manufacturer is the retailer.)

    This is a real pet peeve for me, since I spend my days getting shouted at by people that don't understand this, and also think that the manufacturer is responsible for whatever lies retailer outlet salespeople tell. If the manufacturer even has a phone number for you to call for help, be nice to them since there's no legal obligation for them to provide you any help at all whatsoever.
  • steven504
    • #7
    • 16th Sep 07, 11:35 PM
    • #7
    • 16th Sep 07, 11:35 PM
    While you have the right to ask that the product should be repaired and can use the argument that the product should have lasted more than 2 years as it is stated that it does in another EU country. If you were able to prove this you would be able to enforce the EU warranty however I do not feel the time spent is worthwhile.
  • steven504
    • #8
    • 16th Sep 07, 11:57 PM
    • #8
    • 16th Sep 07, 11:57 PM
    [quote=wibbble;6299491]The manufacturer owes you exactly nothing. Manufacturer's warranties are goodwill gestures and there's no legal obligation on the manufacturer to do anything about anything you buy - from a 20 kettle to a 2000 TV.[quote]


    The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002
    States that if you make a guarantee then that guarantee is enforceable


    15. - (1) Where goods are sold or otherwise supplied to a consumer which are offered with a consumer guarantee, the consumer guarantee takes effect at the time the goods are delivered as a contractual obligation owed by the guarantor under the conditions set out in the guarantee statement and the associated advertising.


    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023045.htm Time 23:52 Date16/09/07
  • tomthebomb
    • #9
    • 17th Sep 07, 9:42 AM
    • #9
    • 17th Sep 07, 9:42 AM
    Get a grip

    Its a cheap kettle, I dont think its unfair to say after 16 months if its faulty then it should be the buyers responsibility to replace/repair

    If it was a 500 kettle or tv you may have a case
    Originally posted by knowledgeman


    The price of the kettle is immaterial.
    If manufacturers are allowed to produce stuff that is irrepairable with built in obsolescence then the pollution problems that are affecting the country and the planet will never be dealt with - you just have to look at the stacks of fridges and washing machines at your local authority dump to see that something has to be done.
  • gsamsa
    The price of the kettle is immaterial.
    If manufacturers are allowed to produce stuff that is irrepairable with built in obsolescence then the pollution problems that are affecting the country and the planet will never be dealt with - you just have to look at the stacks of fridges and washing machines at your local authority dump to see that something has to be done.
    Originally posted by tomthebomb
    I completely agree with you. I think at the moment all this expenses aren't taking into consideration when the government makes amendments to Acts like the Sale of Goods, Extended Warranties, etc.

    The Sales of Goods Act applies solely to the retailer - the person that SOLD you the item. You have no contract with the manufacturer.
    Originally posted by wibbble
    I think you are right, it isn't the manufacturer but the retailer. However, when the product fails tremendously due to a manufacturer's mistake then I think it is liable...Imagine a washing machine which starts a fire...

    And your are also right that the manufacturer's warranty is a good will gesture, but I wonder why the good will gestures by the same manufacturer in other EU countries are better than in UK. Hypocrisy, isn't it?
  • Pound
    We bought a kettle about 16 months ago, although it wasn't expensive I wonder if I can use the warranty to get it repaired under the Sale of Goods Act.
    Originally posted by gsamsa
    If the goods did not conform to contract you can ask the retailer for a repair or a replacement. However, after 6 months the onus is on you to prove that the goods were inherently faulty.

  • vk2003
    My experience with this sort of thing is that if you write to the manufacturer, stating that you bought "this" kettle, 16 months ago, and are "disappointed" that it has had such a short lifespan, and request whether they will consider repairing FOC, they will often ask you to send it in and just replace it for you. I have done this with a kettle and a toaster (one of which was 20 months old)


    No need to pick a fight; just state your disappointment, and they will often, if they are a big brand (Kenwood etc) step up to maintain their reputation.

    HTH
  • wibbble
    The manufacturer owes you exactly nothing. Manufacturer's warranties are goodwill gestures and there's no legal obligation on the manufacturer to do anything about anything you buy - from a 20 kettle to a 2000 TV.
    Originally posted by wibbble

    The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002
    States that if you make a guarantee then that guarantee is enforceable


    15. - (1) Where goods are sold or otherwise supplied to a consumer which are offered with a consumer guarantee, the consumer guarantee takes effect at the time the goods are delivered as a contractual obligation owed by the guarantor under the conditions set out in the guarantee statement and the associated advertising.


    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023045.htm Time 23:52 Date16/09/07
    Originally posted by steven504
    All this says is that if a manufacturer offers a warranty, it has to abide by the terms of the warranty. So if the warranty says 'we'll repair your thingy, if it breaks due to a manufacturing defect within sixteen seconds of purchase', then that's all you get. There's no obligation to offer it for six months, one year, two years, or any length of time. It is entirely a goodwill gesture by the manufacturer.

    And actually, reading the whole thing in context, I don't think this even applies: this is talking about things like Argos's guarantees where they - as a retailer - give you a guarantee above your statutory rights. Nothing in there seems to apply to a manufacturer with whom you have no direct contract for sale.

    Remember: unless you purchase directly from the manufacturer, they did not supply the product to you. They supplied it to your retailer, possibly with a wholesaler as an intermediary.

    However, when the product fails tremendously due to a manufacturer's mistake then I think it is liable...Imagine a washing machine which starts a fire...
    by gsamsa
    A manufacturer might do a recall (or, heh, a 'product advisory'), but only because they'd have to deal with the retailer returning the faulty products eventually anyway and for public relations purposes. Even if your Hotpoint washing machine explodes, killing your small child and burning your house to the ground - any legal responsibility would still lie with the retailer for selling such a hugely defective product. The retailer holds legal responsibility for ensuring that the stuff they sell is safe and fit for the purpose for which it was sold. Hotpoint might investigate it, offer compensation, or initiate a recall - but only because people won't buying exploding washing machines, not because they're legally obliged to.
  • L1011_Tristar
    Hi there

    First time poster.

    I bought an LG42GL5000 LCD TV for near 600 16 months ago.

    There is a black dot 3 ins in diameter which I believe to be dead pixels.

    I contacted the retailer quoting the Sale of Good Act etc from Martins consumer rights guide as I don't believe 16 months for a new TV is lasting a reasonable length of time.

    I have resisted the' contact the manufacturer syndrome' but I have received an email telling me unless I can prove it was inherently faulty they won't do anything. Also they have given me a reference number to contact the manufacturer direct.

    I have read on some of the Techie guides on the internet that TVs are sold with an 'acceptable number of dead pixels' as standard.

    Can anyone advise on the next steps I should take with the retailer?

    Regards
    Alex S
  • dmg24
    Do you mean three inches? That is an area of seven inches, so more than a few pixels!

    The retailer is correct, after six months it is up to you to prove that an item is inherently faulty. Have you researched whether there are any known faults with this model?
  • alandbailey
    I recently returned a Scholl pedicure set (bought 11 months previously)because the power was intermittent. Amazon sent me a replacement before I returned the faulty - that was good as I reused their packaging. They also sent me a free carriage returns label.
    Now the lid of the Philips kettle I bought from them last April has broken - no problem - they emailed me a free returns label and said they would refund the purchase price as they no longer had that model in stock.
    I cannot reccommend Amazon highly enough - their prices are very competitive, carriage is usually free and their after sales is exemplary!

    BTW I am retired and do not work for them.
    I am one of the first to complain but also the first to praise.
  • derrick
    These posts should go onto the correct thread, Consumer Rights, (where more advice will be offered), and not on the Shop But Don't Drop thread in a post that is over 2 years old.
    And the Praise,Vent & Warnings thread for praise!





    .
    Last edited by derrick; 06-03-2010 at 2:32 PM.
    Don`t steal - the Government doesn`t like the competition


  • awhitham
    I recently returned a Scholl pedicure set (bought 11 months previously)because the power was intermittent. Amazon sent me a replacement before I returned the faulty - that was good as I reused their packaging. They also sent me a free carriage returns label.
    Now the lid of the Philips kettle I bought from them last April has broken - no problem - they emailed me a free returns label and said they would refund the purchase price as they no longer had that model in stock.
    I cannot reccommend Amazon highly enough - their prices are very competitive, carriage is usually free and their after sales is exemplary!

    BTW I am retired and do not work for them.
    I am one of the first to complain but also the first to praise.
    Originally posted by alandbailey
    I have a watch that broke (and it wasnt the battery!) after 358 days (1 week before end of guarentee. Amazon just exchanged it for a brand new one without any hassle
  • Icon101
    Hi there

    First time poster.

    I bought an LG42GL5000 LCD TV for near 600 16 months ago.

    There is a black dot 3 ins in diameter which I believe to be dead pixels.

    I contacted the retailer quoting the Sale of Good Act etc from Martins consumer rights guide as I don't believe 16 months for a new TV is lasting a reasonable length of time.

    I have resisted the' contact the manufacturer syndrome' but I have received an email telling me unless I can prove it was inherently faulty they won't do anything. Also they have given me a reference number to contact the manufacturer direct.

    I have read on some of the Techie guides on the internet that TVs are sold with an 'acceptable number of dead pixels' as standard.

    Can anyone advise on the next steps I should take with the retailer?

    Regards
    Alex S
    Originally posted by L1011_Tristar
    I bought the very same TV 42LG5000 LCD TV for 600 in August 2008 and this week it has developed a blue line right down the middle of the screen with smaller lines along the top.After a bit of research it looks like the LCD panel is faulty and the TV would not be worth repairing.I sent an email to LG and the same old story, no extended warenty so you pay to fix it.Twenty two months from a 600 TV now that's shocking.Is there anything at all that can be done?300 a year for a TV is a bit steap!!!!!
  • AustinDean
    Faulty goods? You've still got rights when the guarantee runs out

    That new TV looked great in the shop, and worked perfectly for the first year. Then it packed up. Phillip Inman explains what you can do when a defunct electrical item is no longer covered.
    Shoppers are being sold short when expensive electrical goods break down. If a TV or fridge packs up just one day after an initial one-year guarantee, customers are told they have to pay for the repair - but the truth is that retailers may be liable for up to six years.
    Consumer experts say retailers are exploiting ambiguous legislation to wriggle out of their responsibilities. Ministers, however, claim the law is quite clear. The Sale of Goods Act offers protection against faulty goods even when the manufacturer's guarantee has run out. The act says goods must last a reasonable time - and that can be anything up to six years from the date of purchase.
    Which? - formerly the Consumers Association - says consumers should argue strongly with retailers when a product breaks down within six years. The Sale of Goods Act doesn't define how long specific products should last, because different products have different life spans. But a survey by Which? of manufacturers into how long they believe different types of appliance should last made interesting reading. All of them said their goods should last five years or more.
    But retailers, which should be the first port of call for all complaints, make life difficult for customers who refuse to buy an extended warranty. Even when there is little doubt the fault lies with the goods maker (rather than abuse of the machine) customers are still routinely asked to pay more than 100 for the call-out and a separate amount for spare parts.
    Tim Young, a senior researcher at Which? says the problem can be traced back to the sale of extended warranties. "Retailers want to sell extended warranties. Manufacturers know this and they don't want to rock the boat. So you don't have to be too cynical to say it is in the manufacturers' interests to hike up the costs of call-outs and repairs."
    In many cases customers are being told to spend several hundred pounds to restore a machine to working order - when they could instead be entitled to a refund under the Sale of Goods Act.
    Take the example of an Apple ipod that breaks down outside the standard one-year guarantee. The usual response, or at least the response from both the Manchester and Birmingham Apple Centres, is don't bother getting a repair. Staff say the cost of repair would exceed the value of a 300 40Gb model and refuse a free replacement. Yet iPods are designed to be portable and take a reasonable amount of wear and tear. Consumers should follow the advice of Which? (right) and demand refunds when the fault is not of their making.
    Two other examples illustrate how shops and electrical goods manufacturers make life difficult. The glass door shattered on a De Longhi range cooker bought from Comet three and a half years previously. The shop wanted to charge 59.95 for a call-out and more than 500 for a new door. The cooker cost 499.
    In another incident, a John Lewis customer reported a fault with the ice and water dispenser on a four-year-old US-style fridge freezer. John Lewis directed the complainant to the manufacturer, Samsung. To check the fridge, Samsung demanded a call-out charge of 79.95 for the first 15 minutes and 25 for each subsequent 15 minutes. Parts would be extra. The customer was told they could ask a third party maintenance firm to check the fridge. The three major firms listed in the local Yellow pages all refused, saying they found it difficult sourcing parts for this style of fridge.
    It's a similar story with faulty TV sets. When we rang the service division of Dixons, which is called Mastercare, to say an 18-month-old 42in plasma TV wasn't working we were told that it could send someone out to get it, but it would cost 120 plus any parts. However, we were also told that if it had failed because of an inherent fault, they would try to get the manufacturer to make a contribution to its repair - where appropriate.
    When we pushed Mastercare further, the call centre representative said that if they got our TV back to their service centre and it was found to be uneconomic to repair, we could reject the original 125 (plus parts) quote, and simply pay a more reasonable 25 inspection fee.
    "We do get a lot of TVs - LCDs and Plasmas - sent in, and most are usually repairable for less than the cost of buying a new one," he said. But, as Which? says, you shouldn't have to pay a penny, even if the guarantee has expired, if the goods are faulty and less than six years old.
    The steps you can take
    1. Contact the retailer's head office: You won't get any joy from youthful shop staff or call centres. Be firm and explain you think your product hasn't lasted a reasonable amount time. You want it to be investigated and repaired, or replaced if it turns out to be faulty.
    2. Get an independent report: A major retailer is likely to have its own repairs centre or an arrangement with the manufacturer, but this may result in sky-high call out charges. Contact an independent repairer and ask it to produce a report. Most of the independents we contacted charged between 30 and 40 to visit and many would write a short report as part of the cost. You can claim back up to 200 for the costs of the repairer's bill.
    3. Commission a repair: Ask the retailer to repair or replace the goods. If the repair cost is disproportionate the retailer can offer a refund of the original purchase price, though probably not a full refund. If the shop makes life difficult you can ask go to an independent repairer and reclaim the whole cost. Make sure they provide evidence of the fault.
    4. Be prepared to battle: The company could refuse to refund the repair cost, leaving you to chase them through the small claims court. A judge can order the retailer to settle the claim - up to 5,000 - and pay legal costs. For information on taking a case to the small claims court, read our guide published last week (guardian.co.uk/money). Consumer Direct is the government's new online and telephone advice line. Call an adviser on 08454 04 05 06.
    The Department of Trade & Industry says the rules are clear and as long as you have evidence of a fault the judge will be sympathetic. But David Oughton, professor of consumer law at De Montfort University in Leicester, says an EU Directive has muddied the waters. "The presumption underlying the new rules is that you have two years to make a case." He says judges may override the old rules giving protection up to six years.
    A spokeswoman for the DTI says: "There is a common misunderstanding that the EU Directive requires a two-year guarantee to be given, but that is not the case. UK law in practice provides better protection for consumers than the two-year minimum required by the EU - consumers are able to pursue relevant claims for up to six years (five in Scotland)."
    p.inman@guardian.co.uk



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