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  • FIRST POST
    • jacktheross
    • By jacktheross 25th Sep 16, 6:29 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 4Thanks
    jacktheross
    gemini parking solutions fine 100 at Chase Farm Hospital
    • #1
    • 25th Sep 16, 6:29 PM
    gemini parking solutions fine 100 at Chase Farm Hospital 25th Sep 16 at 6:29 PM
    Hi.
    Have the same problem as someone else earlier this year, and wonder how that person's case was resolved - any joy?
    The kindly Gemini Parking Solutions have sent a PCN for 100 (60 if paid in a fortnight) for a missed payment of 3 in the multi-storey at Chase Farm Hospital.
    Can anyone advise, please, if the big fine was avoided? (Have no problems paying the missed 3).
    With thanks.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 25th Sep 16, 9:09 PM
    • 40,411 Posts
    • 52,297 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 25th Sep 16, 9:09 PM
    • #2
    • 25th Sep 16, 9:09 PM
    You won't be able to pay the 3. But you CAN beat Gemini at POPLA.

    Please read the NEWBIES thread first, near the top of this board, where you clicked 'NEW THREAD'. Go back there and read the sticky info and submit the template appeal from yourself as KEEPER not driver.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 26th Sep 16, 5:12 AM
    • 2,241 Posts
    • 2,724 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    • #3
    • 26th Sep 16, 5:12 AM
    • #3
    • 26th Sep 16, 5:12 AM
    you are now getting advice from one of the best informed people in this country re parking on private land ....... take heed ...

    good luck

    Ralph

    foreign correspondent
    • jacktheross
    • By jacktheross 7th Oct 16, 12:47 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jacktheross
    • #4
    • 7th Oct 16, 12:47 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Oct 16, 12:47 PM
    Hi Coupon Mad,
    Thank you for your advice. Sorry my reply doesn't come under the definition of quick, as I've taken the good lady out of the country for a few days. Will now pay close attention to what has to be done. Much appreciation.
    • jacktheross
    • By jacktheross 17th Oct 16, 1:09 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jacktheross
    • #5
    • 17th Oct 16, 1:09 PM
    • #5
    • 17th Oct 16, 1:09 PM
    Hi,
    Am having to provide evidence to POPLA re my appeal.
    Somebody in early September who had the same problem as myself did provide photos of the car park signs at Chase Farm Hospital on your forum. These images are the evidence I need for my appeal, but they seem to have been taken off your forum.
    Does anyone still have this picture please?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Oct 16, 1:10 PM
    • 40,411 Posts
    • 52,297 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 17th Oct 16, 1:10 PM
    • #6
    • 17th Oct 16, 1:10 PM
    Please show us your draft POPLA appeal, we want to help!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • jacktheross
    • By jacktheross 18th Oct 16, 9:41 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jacktheross
    • #7
    • 18th Oct 16, 9:41 AM
    • #7
    • 18th Oct 16, 9:41 AM
    Thank you for your prompt reply yesterday. Sorry had to be away from my post, but back now.
    A draft of a reply I would make to POPLA:
    verification code
    While I have no wish to flout regulations and fair payment for parking, I am appealing against the excessively harsh penalty demanded.
    The agency making the demand have given no indication of the penalty they demand, as seen from this photograph of their sign *1
    I would like to refer to the preceding court case won by Beavis*2, who appealed in the same circumstances, and ask for the penalty being demanded to be rescinded.


    Notes to Coupon Mad:
    *1 While accessing Money saving Expert two or three weeks ago (have been away), I came across an appeal about the very same car park, Chase Farm Hospital, Enfield. The person writing showed clear pictures of the car-parking signs there, and I wanted to use these for my appeal as clear evidence. The pictures have now gone, as far as I can see, and I'm wondering if there is a means to recover them.
    *2 Will access the precise reference.


    With grateful thanks.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th Oct 16, 9:51 AM
    • 36,454 Posts
    • 73,278 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 18th Oct 16, 9:51 AM
    • #8
    • 18th Oct 16, 9:51 AM
    You will lose if you send that.

    Beavis lost at the Supreme Court.

    Please look at the POPLA Decisions sticky thread and pick out ALL the points that are relevant to your case.
    These would normally include at least, not the landowner, no standing to bring charges in their own name, inadequate signage, non POFA 2012 compliant NTK, flawed ANPR if it was used, and anything else relevant.

    Have you looked on the PPCs website to see their photos of the signs? You should be able to pick holes in them from that.
    Did you get a NTK? If so, did it meet ALL the requirements of POFA 2012.

    You need to do a lot more research on other points rather than rely on just signage.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th Oct 16, 11:20 AM
    • 10,975 Posts
    • 16,374 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:20 AM
    • #9
    • 18th Oct 16, 11:20 AM
    @OP - have you read this thread. A winning POPLA appeal is included in it for you to base yours on.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5459512&highlight=chase+farm
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th Oct 16, 11:42 AM
    • 10,975 Posts
    • 16,374 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    In addition to my previous post, we now have a number of POPLA appeal points covering the essential areas for appeal. They are in 'near template' state, but will need to be checked first against the circumstances of your parking event.

    These are long on detail and when put together form a formidable block of text. Gemini are noted for not being capable of putting in the time to work methodically through a very long appeal and decide to save themselves the hassle (and the POPLA fee) by throwing in their cards on receipt of the appeal. Just need to caveat that nothing can be guaranteed in any of the advice, but past performance of Gemini can't be ignored in giving that advice.

    Signage

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71285691&postcount=2341

    Driver Liability

    The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287626&postcount=2342

    Landowner Authority

    No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287628&postcount=2343

    No Keeper Liability (windscreen ticket, no follow on NtK)

    Example for cases where the PPC issued only a windscreen PCN but did not follow it with a NTK:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71287643&postcount=2345
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 18th Oct 16, 11:46 AM
    • 2,241 Posts
    • 2,724 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    that could make for an interesting appeal ........ could POPLA possibly not allow an appeal when it has all ready been successful

    Ralph
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th Oct 16, 12:16 PM
    • 36,454 Posts
    • 73,278 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    that could make for an interesting appeal ........ could POPLA possibly not allow an appeal when it has all ready been successful

    Ralph
    Originally posted by Ralph-y
    Look, a pig in a flying helmet and goggles! (None meant.)
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th Oct 16, 12:17 PM
    • 36,454 Posts
    • 73,278 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    that could make for an interesting appeal ........ could POPLA possibly not allow an appeal when it has all ready been successful

    Ralph
    Originally posted by Ralph-y
    Look, a pig in a flying helmet and goggles! (None meant.)

    They recently allowed an appeal when the car never left the highway. *sigh*
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th Oct 16, 12:37 PM
    • 36,454 Posts
    • 73,278 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Post 44 of this thread has photographs of the hospital site.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5388267&highlight=chase+farm+hosp ital&page=3
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • jacktheross
    • By jacktheross 2nd Nov 16, 12:00 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jacktheross
    Dear MSE,
    Writing an appeal. Would you evaluate it for me please.
    The 100 charge imposed for the non-payment of a ticket is totally extortionate. The operator has incurred no such loss:
    1) parking bays are not full at the time of day in question, so this parked vehicle would not be depriving another vehicle of parking space.
    Gemini Solutions cannot demonstrate any such loss. The B.P.A. code of practice requires a charge for the breach to be based on a genuine pre-estimate of the loss.
    2) Gemini Parking Solutions does not own the land, and has no legal right to enter into a contract with the driver of the vehicle or allege a breach of contract in its own name as a creditor. The B.P.A. code of practice requires the operator to pursue parking charges in its own name as creditor.
    3) The signs at the entrance to the car-park are not clear enough for the driver to see on the entrance to the car-park. Please see attached file. There is no clearly visible reference to the penalty to be imposed for non-compliance.
    4) The signs are placed at a point where the driver has to negotiate a narrow 90 degrees turn which demands his/her total attention
    5) Visitors familiar with the site will know that when it was the local N.H.S. hospital, bars were placed across the entrance and exit to the car-park. Entry was only possible by pressing for a ticket, which would release the bar. The pay machine was situated inside the hospital opposite the car-park entrance. With the absence of the control bar, a visitor to what has become a bewildering complex, in a state of demolition and rebuilding, may consider (as in this case) that the normal paying operations of the car-park itself had been suspended. Failure to pay is not always (as in this case) a blithe disregard of required parking charges.
    • DollyDee
    • By DollyDee 2nd Nov 16, 1:09 PM
    • 623 Posts
    • 638 Thanks
    DollyDee
    @OP - have you read this thread. A winning POPLA appeal is included in it for you to base yours on.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5459512&highlight=chase+farm
    Originally posted by Umkomaas

    As suggested by Umkomaas, read post #25. After you have adapted it to cover your circumstances (if different) you must proof read it thoroughly so all the info is correct.

    Umkomaas also gave you a link to the signs.

    When does your POPLA appeal have to be in?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 2nd Nov 16, 1:17 PM
    • 10,975 Posts
    • 16,374 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Gemini Solutions cannot demonstrate any such loss. The B.P.A. code of practice requires a charge for the breach to be based on a genuine pre-estimate of the loss.
    No it doesn't. Where did you get that from? It hasn't stated that for at least a couple of years.

    Did you read any of the links I gave you? Your attempt above seems to include none of ready made appeal points shown in them.

    Your appeal as it stands WILL LOSE AT POPLA.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Nov 16, 12:45 AM
    • 40,411 Posts
    • 52,297 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Listen to the others, that is not a winning POPLA appeal. That WILL lose.

    You must have read really old examples from 2015. Instead, read the NEWBIES thread post #3 about POPLA and see some recent ones, including the template appeal points that can win. Umkomaas showed you and you've ignored all of it?!

    Show us a far longer draft, copying from the template POPLA appeal points shown in the sticky threads.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • jacktheross
    • By jacktheross 5th Nov 16, 1:58 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jacktheross
    Thank you guys.
    Looks like you have to bore the balls off a buffalo to win these cases. Pity my Uncle Charlie isn't still around - he was worse than a night in Russia.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Nov 16, 2:11 PM
    • 40,411 Posts
    • 52,297 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Ukomaas showed you a winning Gemini Hospital POPLA appeal in his post #9 above. Yes you do have to waffle on but look, a POPLA appeal can now be thrown together from templates, takes minutes to achieve a basic one:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5529547

    That poster just used the most commonly-relevant four template points already written in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread. Yours will be slightly different in point #1 because I think yours was not a windscreen PCN so you did get a NTK in the post. Your point #1 simply needs to show how that NTK was not compliant with para 9 of Schedule 4 (sounds harder than it actually is, para 9 is just bullet points).

    It's a game of spot the difference between 'para 9' wording and your NTK. If you want help with that little game, show the front page of the NTK here with your VRN and name/address covered. All dates showing, all wording showing.

    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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