Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • JustAnotherSaver
    • By JustAnotherSaver 24th Sep 16, 5:36 PM
    • 1,971Posts
    • 293Thanks
    JustAnotherSaver
    Question regards tongue & groove gate making...
    • #1
    • 24th Sep 16, 5:36 PM
    Question regards tongue & groove gate making... 24th Sep 16 at 5:36 PM
    I've done it a bit !!!!-eyed (as per usual) & ended up piecing the strips together & gluing them before cutting the required off each end (side). I also don't have a guide for my circular saw in order to do a perfect straight cut & even if i did, the circular saw i have isn't a very good one anyway.

    As it stands, the gate width is currently perfect ... the only thing is there's a tongue on 1 end & a groove on the other.
    I have 1 strip spare which was to put on & then cut down to size but the sash clamps i have wont grip another strip. I'm currently maxed out.


    I'm not overly bothered about it looking perfect (each end cut down).

    My question is - aside from simply not being a 'proper job', is there any negative effects of leaving the tongue & groove in place on either end & hanging the gate like that?

    The panels are tanalised & will be either painted with that ducks back paint or creocote. I haven't decided yet.

Page 1
    • flashg67
    • By flashg67 24th Sep 16, 8:23 PM
    • 1,954 Posts
    • 1,273 Thanks
    flashg67
    • #2
    • 24th Sep 16, 8:23 PM
    • #2
    • 24th Sep 16, 8:23 PM
    Sounds like how I would have ended up doing it! Personally apart from the aesthetics, can't see it being a problem. Handsaw it if you can bothered...?
    • leveller2911
    • By leveller2911 24th Sep 16, 8:49 PM
    • 7,350 Posts
    • 13,405 Thanks
    leveller2911
    • #3
    • 24th Sep 16, 8:49 PM
    • #3
    • 24th Sep 16, 8:49 PM
    I've done it a bit !!!!-eyed (as per usual) & ended up piecing the strips together & gluing them before cutting the required off each end (side). I also don't have a guide for my circular saw in order to do a perfect straight cut & even if i did, the circular saw i have isn't a very good one anyway.
    Originally posted by JustAnotherSaver
    You shouldn't glue the boards together. They should just be slotted together and leave a space between each board of 2 mm to allow for expansion. Timber shrinks and expands with the seasons. The job of the top/bottom rail (ledges) is to keep the gate together and each board should be fixed through to the rails.


    My question is - aside from simply not being a 'proper job', is there any negative effects of leaving the tongue & groove in place on either end & hanging the gate like that?
    Its not a problem............
    If we in parliament cannot gain from ruling,then there is very little point in us being here: (Lord Manchester 1650) :rolleyes: how true!
    • JustAnotherSaver
    • By JustAnotherSaver 24th Sep 16, 11:24 PM
    • 1,971 Posts
    • 293 Thanks
    JustAnotherSaver
    • #4
    • 24th Sep 16, 11:24 PM
    • #4
    • 24th Sep 16, 11:24 PM
    You shouldn't glue the boards together. .
    Originally posted by leveller2911
    I was just following the guide from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92GH2MXM2o0

    5:45 in if you want to skip

    The annoying thing is while my gate is level top & bottom, one of the ends the T&Gs didn't all slot up super tight.
    So for example - the top are all nice & snug with the tongue as far in the groove as it'll go, but the bottom, some are nice & snug but others have a couple mm gap. I couldn't even rubber mallet it in or even sash clamp them together.

    It's not much of a difference but it's a difference.

    And good to know that it should be ok. Wont look the best but so long as it functions ok then i suppose it'll have to do.

    • SailorSam
    • By SailorSam 24th Sep 16, 11:44 PM
    • 21,147 Posts
    • 36,428 Thanks
    SailorSam
    • #5
    • 24th Sep 16, 11:44 PM
    • #5
    • 24th Sep 16, 11:44 PM

    The panels are tanalised & will be either painted with that ducks back paint or creocote. I haven't decided yet.
    Originally posted by JustAnotherSaver
    You can't buy creosote now, the EU took it off the market. Maybe when we leave the shops will get it back in again.
    Liverpool is one of the wonders of Britain,
    What it may grow to in time, I know not what.

    Daniel Defoe: 1725.
    • casper_g
    • By casper_g 25th Sep 16, 7:03 AM
    • 944 Posts
    • 824 Thanks
    casper_g
    • #6
    • 25th Sep 16, 7:03 AM
    • #6
    • 25th Sep 16, 7:03 AM
    You can't buy creosote now, the EU took it off the market. Maybe when we leave the shops will get it back in again.
    Originally posted by SailorSam
    Creocote - it wasn't a typo!
    • Norman Castle
    • By Norman Castle 25th Sep 16, 9:39 AM
    • 5,282 Posts
    • 4,053 Thanks
    Norman Castle
    • #7
    • 25th Sep 16, 9:39 AM
    • #7
    • 25th Sep 16, 9:39 AM
    My question is - aside from simply not being a 'proper job', is there any negative effects of leaving the tongue & groove in place on either end & hanging the gate like that?
    Originally posted by JustAnotherSaver
    Presumably you mean either side. The tongue or groove sides will be more prone to damage than a solid edge. Its not difficult to remove them with a plane. I would hinge the groove side and remove the tongue.
    Too cool for school. Also too old for school.
    • leveller2911
    • By leveller2911 25th Sep 16, 10:47 AM
    • 7,350 Posts
    • 13,405 Thanks
    leveller2911
    • #8
    • 25th Sep 16, 10:47 AM
    • #8
    • 25th Sep 16, 10:47 AM
    I was just following the guide from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92GH2MXM2o0

    5:45 in if you want to skip
    Originally posted by JustAnotherSaver
    Anyone with a camera can post a video on Youtube. The guys who posts under the name of "Ultimate handyman" should give you a clue to his competance. He may be very good at replacing a tap washer,or put up a fence panel but thats the limit of his knowledge.

    The fact that he has the nerve to make a video claiming to know how to make a T&G ledged,braced and boarded gate is a bit of an insult. I can't lay bricks any sense so I certainly wouldn't be making a video on how to lay bricks and wouldn't recommend anyone watches more of his videos.

    The annoying thing is while my gate is level top & bottom, one of the ends the T&Gs didn't all slot up super tight.
    So for example - the top are all nice & snug with the tongue as far in the groove as it'll go, but the bottom, some are nice & snug but others have a couple mm gap. I couldn't even rubber mallet it in or even sash clamp them together.
    Pine T&G in particular can twist and warp quite a lot so it may well take some fitting. As I said, you shouldn't clamp the boards up really tight because they need to move with the weather (hence you don't glue them together,but I see why you did) so leave a 2mm gap between then to allow for expansion. As long as the one that didn't clamp up tight is still in the slop it may be ok. You may find over thr Winter with the wet weather the board will bow ( cup) and try and push off the rails. Not a lot you can do apart from plenty of stain etc. Preservatives don't tend to make timber water proof, just insect,fungus resistant.



    And good to know that it should be ok. Wont look the best but so long as it functions ok then i suppose it'll have to do.
    Well the good thing is pine T&G isn't that expensive so you could have another go if the current one doesn't last that long.

    Life is a learning curve and we all make mistakes. I have a window thats been sitting in my workshop for the last 8yrs which is 100mm too tall and I've been doing this job for over 30yrs ..
    Last edited by leveller2911; 25-09-2016 at 10:50 AM.
    If we in parliament cannot gain from ruling,then there is very little point in us being here: (Lord Manchester 1650) :rolleyes: how true!
    • JustAnotherSaver
    • By JustAnotherSaver 25th Sep 16, 11:29 AM
    • 1,971 Posts
    • 293 Thanks
    JustAnotherSaver
    • #9
    • 25th Sep 16, 11:29 AM
    • #9
    • 25th Sep 16, 11:29 AM
    Like you say, it wasn't really expensive. I think the total came in at about £30 - that was about 11-12 lengths of the T&G & then some 4x1 tanalised rough sawn for the rear supports.

    With a bit of luck it'll come down to another one of those internet doom-&-gloom stories where I get told it wont work & then x-years later it's still going strong Either that or this one actually wont work.

    Only one way to find out.

    • leveller2911
    • By leveller2911 25th Sep 16, 11:59 AM
    • 7,350 Posts
    • 13,405 Thanks
    leveller2911

    With a bit of luck it'll come down to another one of those internet doom-&-gloom stories where I get told it wont work & then x-years later it's still going strong Either that or this one actually wont work.

    Only one way to find out.
    Originally posted by JustAnotherSaver

    In 21st century Joinery we still use motice and tenon joints because they have been around for thousands of years. Its that old saying of "If it aint broke ,don't fix it". With all the modern computerised technology we now have in the industry we still use many of the old techniques because they work.

    A real Joiner will never,ever glue all the boards together because we know that timber expands and contracts with the Seasons and we need to allow for this movement when we make windows,doors,conservatories etc so the boards and door panels are left to "float" (no glue ) so they can move and always allow for movement by leaving expansion gaps. If you try and stop them , you won't do it successfully and one of 2 things will happen. They will expand and split the boards or they will literally break the gate.

    I saw a hardwood floor that was laid a few years ago where they didn't check the moisture content of the sub floor. They laid the flooring and within 4 weeks the floor had expanded and where it met the blockwork wall it actually cracked the wall , it forced the whole bottom coarse of blocks to move sideways. Its a extreme case but it does show the force that a material can experience when expanding through the rise in moisture content.

    The thing is with Youtube video's is that people upload them for various reasons but generally its to get enough views so they can be paid by youtube for promoting advertising or people promote their own business. I don't think Youtube is all bad, in fact I have picked up a couple of useful tips in the past but much of the DIY stuff is terrible.
    Last edited by leveller2911; 25-09-2016 at 12:07 PM.
    If we in parliament cannot gain from ruling,then there is very little point in us being here: (Lord Manchester 1650) :rolleyes: how true!
    • JustAnotherSaver
    • By JustAnotherSaver 25th Sep 16, 1:45 PM
    • 1,971 Posts
    • 293 Thanks
    JustAnotherSaver
    I know exactly what you're saying & agree with it.

    The flipside of that is that (the same YouTube guy) i didn't know how to drain down the central heating system. I checked out numerous videos including the one he uploaded. He actually went a little more detailed than the other videos i saw but they were all basically the same. Just my 'lightbulb' came on after seeing his video.

    Followed the video & drained down the system ok.

    But before it's said - i know you said that not ALL YT DIY videos are bad.

    I do it enough times - follow a guide & then someone (in this case yourself) comes in & says XYZ & then i'm like oh yeah, of course, i should've thought of that it makes sense (the expanding of the wood in this case).

    The old gate that was in place was just 4x1 rough sawn sort of butted up against each other with thin slate batten covering the gaps. A very DIY job by the previous house owner but i guess that'll be why.

    Anyway i'll stick it on & see how we go. Hopefully it works out, but if not then i know what to do next time round.

    • JustAnotherSaver
    • By JustAnotherSaver 25th Sep 16, 1:55 PM
    • 1,971 Posts
    • 293 Thanks
    JustAnotherSaver
    Out of interest how would you fix it together?

    Going from what you say you'd slot the T&G all together, no glue, just naturally slotted together.

    Then on the rear there would be a length at the top & bottom with a Z in the middle - so total of 4 horizontal pieces & 1 diagonal.

    How would you fix those to the rear of the T&G? In the video he glues & screws.

    Obviously they need to be fixed but i would've thought even if they were screwed & not glued on, the T&G panels would not be able to move naturally then through the seasons?

    • leveller2911
    • By leveller2911 25th Sep 16, 2:59 PM
    • 7,350 Posts
    • 13,405 Thanks
    leveller2911
    Out of interest how would you fix it together?

    Going from what you say you'd slot the T&G all together, no glue, just naturally slotted together.

    Then on the rear there would be a length at the top & bottom with a Z in the middle - so total of 4 horizontal pieces & 1 diagonal.

    How would you fix those to the rear of the T&G? In the video he glues & screws.
    Originally posted by JustAnotherSaver
    If its a gate under 1m high I would just have a top and bottom rail (ledge) and one diagonal brace. If its any taller then add a middle rail and a second brace.

    I would cut the boards to length, place them face down on a bench then use sash cramps to cramp them up but with 2mm plastic packers between the boards whcih creates that space for expansion.

    Then sit the ledges in place on top of the boards.Ledges would be a minimum of ex100 x 25 . There is a right and wrong way to fix the ledges to the boards.You don't need thick ledges , they just add weight, you need wide ledges for support.

    We take note of which side of the gate the hinges will be fitted on and each ledge will be fixed to each board with 3 screws, top,middle and bottom of each board.

    The idea is the screw pattern ,(don't put screws in a line (top,middle,bottom of each board) , put them diagonally the same way the brace will be fitted) actually helps support the gate and along with a diagonal brace.

    By the way the brace doesn't necessarily have to go from one corner of the gate to the other. If a diagonal brace is at an angle of more than 45 degrees on the back of a gate the less support it gives. We often keep a brace 1 or 2 boards in from the side of the gate because the shallower the angle the more support it gives.

    No need for any glue at all unless you want to hide the fixing screws. Drill a 1/2" hole down to a depth of 8mm or so then drill a pilot hole through the ledges, then fix with screws and then plug the 1/2" hole with a wooden pellet/plug,sand down flush with the face of the ledges.


    Obviously they need to be fixed but i would've thought even if they were screwed & not glued on, the T&G panels would not be able to move naturally then through the seasons?
    Timber is a natural materials and will continue to move . Think of when its in a tree and the tree sucks up water from the root system . Those cells are open and remain open even when they are made into doors and windows. Many paint finishes are now microporus which allow the timber to breath ,take on moisture and loose moisture. I've seen front doors with boards where they have expanded so much they have pushed off the door stiles (long upright timbers each side of doors).
    Last edited by leveller2911; 25-09-2016 at 3:19 PM.
    If we in parliament cannot gain from ruling,then there is very little point in us being here: (Lord Manchester 1650) :rolleyes: how true!
    • JustAnotherSaver
    • By JustAnotherSaver 25th Sep 16, 3:30 PM
    • 1,971 Posts
    • 293 Thanks
    JustAnotherSaver
    Yeah i remember our old front door at my mothers. It was a wooden door & it was an absolute nightmare in winter time. Some times you'd be banging away to get it shut but it'd be so free in summer.

    If its a gate under 1m high I would just have a top and bottom rail (ledge) and one diagonal brace. If its any taller then add a middle rail and a second brace.
    Originally posted by leveller2911
    Yeah it'll be 1.8mtr high. Thankfully i can get the T&G pieces at exactly 1.8 mtrs in length, so no need for cutting leaving the ends needing treating.

    I would cut the boards to length, place them face down on a bench then use sash cramps to cramp them up but with 2mm plastic packers between the boards whcih creates that space for expansion.
    Are we talking about these things http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PLASTIC-WINDOW-GLAZING-SPACERS-FLOORING-WATERPROOF-FLAT-PACKERS-1mm-to-6mm-/111594402927 ? I just highlighted & googled your "2mm plastic packers".

    If so then where would you locate these in the T&G? Surely once it's all slotted in place there's nowhere to insert anything?

    We take note of which side of the gate the hinges will be fitted on and each ledge will be fixed to each board with 3 screws, top,middle and bottom of each board.
    2 things here ...

    1) Is there a right & a wrong side to locate the hinge? I was looking at using 2 or 3 450mm T-hinges.

    2) If i've got the idea of your 3 screws right, then each T&G board has 3 screws screwed through the T&G board & in to the 4x1 on the rear? So if there's 10 T&G boards making up the basis of your gate then that's a total of 30 screws?

    • JustAnotherSaver
    • By JustAnotherSaver 25th Sep 16, 9:27 PM
    • 1,971 Posts
    • 293 Thanks
    JustAnotherSaver
    leveller - this one just came to me regards what you said about gluing.

    I know this is flooring & not a gate but at my place of work we sell chipboard flooring & it says to glue the joints.

    Why would it say to glue the joints if gluing is a bad thing?


    Not challenging you here as i'm sure you'll have an explanation, i just wondered.

    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 25th Sep 16, 9:29 PM
    • 26,278 Posts
    • 15,803 Thanks
    getmore4less
    I would have gone to the sheds and had a look at how the gates were made.

    my gate full frame (been climbed over a few times) was made with those "crinkle chip fixings"**, 20years and it needed some hammer work to fix some of the 40mm drop on the bolt side due to shrinkage, bit of work taking it down and there is another 20years in the wood.

    your hinge the side where the diagonal brace is at the bottom, the idea is to hold the bolt side up,

    wood joints/brace work best in compression.

    If you need to cut stuff with a Circular saw, use a long bit of timber as an guide edge to get a clean line.

    ** can I find a link to those when I need one, NO.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 25th Sep 16, 9:46 PM
    • 26,278 Posts
    • 15,803 Thanks
    getmore4less
    leveller - this one just came to me regards what you said about gluing.

    I know this is flooring & not a gate but at my place of work we sell chipboard flooring & it says to glue the joints.

    Why would it say to glue the joints if gluing is a bad thing?


    Not challenging you here as i'm sure you'll have an explanation, i just wondered.
    Originally posted by JustAnotherSaver
    Chipboard inside is very different to wood outside.

    glued is not bad in the right situations, ply is glued, chipboard is glued

    a lot of products are made by cut and glue to give stability.

    outside you are dealing with more extremes of moisture.
    glue a load of T&G and you end up with a big sheet, what it is attached to nd how is the key to making it work.
    • leveller2911
    • By leveller2911 25th Sep 16, 9:57 PM
    • 7,350 Posts
    • 13,405 Thanks
    leveller2911
    leveller - this one just came to me regards what you said about gluing.

    I know this is flooring & not a gate but at my place of work we sell chipboard flooring & it says to glue the joints.

    Why would it say to glue the joints if gluing is a bad thing?


    Not challenging you here as i'm sure you'll have an explanation, i just wondered.
    Originally posted by JustAnotherSaver

    Chipboard flooring is used indoors, its also constructed from chippings of wood which are compressed and glued up into sheets.You glue the joints to stop the flooring from squeeking when you walk over it and it also means you can have a joint in the flooring in between the joist rather than joining the boards over a joist (which I still prefer) Also chipboard flooring is used used indoors it doesn't have the same issues as timber does outdoors with expanding and contracting with the weather. In Summer timber shrinks due to the heat and dry air, in Winter it expands due to the moisture in the atmosphere.

    The problem solid timber products such as furniture, fire surrounds,radiator covers have inside houses is the dry air and lack of moisture. This can cause the timber to shrink. There are species of timber such as Tulipwood that are very good for indoor use such as radiator cover, kitchen units next radiators etc . Their cell structure is different from many other species so they aren't affected by the heat from cookers,AGA's and radiators whereas Redwood pines will shrink,twist and split near heat sources.
    Last edited by leveller2911; 25-09-2016 at 10:00 PM.
    If we in parliament cannot gain from ruling,then there is very little point in us being here: (Lord Manchester 1650) :rolleyes: how true!
    • JustAnotherSaver
    • By JustAnotherSaver 9th Oct 16, 9:44 PM
    • 1,971 Posts
    • 293 Thanks
    JustAnotherSaver
    Well right enough - had a look at it today (still haven't fitted the hinges & bolts as i bought in T hinges but was advised i should use hook & band hinges as they're better) - on about 3 panels the tongue has split from the panel it connects in to.

    It isn't noticeable unless you're up close & inspecting, but it's happened.

    I'll hang it all the same & see how we get on. If/when i have to make a new one i'll leave the glue to one side.

    • leveller2911
    • By leveller2911 9th Oct 16, 10:04 PM
    • 7,350 Posts
    • 13,405 Thanks
    leveller2911
    Thanks for coming back with an update.............. As you say its not a huge mistake but if you do make another one when you slide the boards together don't push them together tight.Leave at least 3mm between them to allow the boards to expand. Also make sure you give the tongues and grooves a coat of stain/primer and this will limit the amount they expand.

    Softwood pine boards often split if they are sawn from the centre of the tree ,when they expand ,if there isn't enough room they can bow the gate and bow the boards so its probably not your fault if they have split in the middle of the boards.
    Regards Leveller
    Last edited by leveller2911; 09-10-2016 at 10:07 PM.
    If we in parliament cannot gain from ruling,then there is very little point in us being here: (Lord Manchester 1650) :rolleyes: how true!
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

4,174Posts Today

7,027Users online

Martin's Twitter