Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • mikebren12
    • By mikebren12 22nd Sep 16, 10:35 AM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    mikebren12
    Parental support worries
    • #1
    • 22nd Sep 16, 10:35 AM
    Parental support worries 22nd Sep 16 at 10:35 AM
    1st time poster, so be gentle...


    My daughter is 17 and is currently looking at university to study Maternity, the bursaries have been abolished. Obvs we are aware of the student loans for tuitions and the maintenance student loans.


    My question is if you are earning over 75k a year as a household, and have lived life to the full, and are not in a position to offer financial aid or support to your child, then what can you do?
    Do you simply tell her 'No' we can't help? or do put yourself in financial difficulty trying too?


    Many thanks


    Mike
Page 2
    • missbiggles1
    • By missbiggles1 22nd Sep 16, 7:20 PM
    • 14,767 Posts
    • 26,606 Thanks
    missbiggles1
    With divorce, the household where the child lives is what is taken into account. So that is one parent plus new spouse if there is one.
    Originally posted by Sacredcat
    Not necessarily a spouse.
    • TheGardener
    • By TheGardener 22nd Sep 16, 7:27 PM
    • 1,489 Posts
    • 1,233 Thanks
    TheGardener
    I never said they were, I said they were for children from poor families.
    Originally posted by missbiggles1
    It was more the suggestion that poorer kids "do quite well financially" I found irksome. Its a financial system where the poorest have to borrow the most and (because of interest) end up paying back the most. A poor students degree will cost more than a well off students degree.

    Given that the OP says the problem is caused by living life to the full...it looks like the next generation in his family isn't going to learn much in the way of financial responsibility by parental example....
    • Andypandyboy
    • By Andypandyboy 22nd Sep 16, 7:32 PM
    • 2,019 Posts
    • 5,161 Thanks
    Andypandyboy
    It was more the suggestion that poorer kids "do quite well financially" I found irksome. Its a financial system where the poorest have to borrow the most and (because of interest) end up paying back the most. A poor students degree will cost more than a well off students degree.

    Given that the OP says the problem is caused by living life to the full...it looks like the next generation in his family isn't going to learn much in the way of financial responsibility by parental example....
    Originally posted by TheGardener
    Up until this year that wasn't the case, poorer students had a non repayable element added to their loans. In fact, those who had it last year still get it this year and possibly for the remainder of the course, although I would have to check that.
    • TheGardener
    • By TheGardener 22nd Sep 16, 7:35 PM
    • 1,489 Posts
    • 1,233 Thanks
    TheGardener
    I understand those already in receipt of the maintenance grant will continue to get it - but the OP's child - nor anyone else's 17 yo - will get it in future. They just get to borrow more instead.

    I am no fan of the HE finance structure myself nor the effective retrospective hike in interest - but as you say, that's how it is and we all have to get on with it
    • missbiggles1
    • By missbiggles1 22nd Sep 16, 8:58 PM
    • 14,767 Posts
    • 26,606 Thanks
    missbiggles1
    It was more the suggestion that poorer kids "do quite well financially" I found irksome. Its a financial system where the poorest have to borrow the most and (because of interest) end up paying back the most. A poor students degree will cost more than a well off students degree.

    Given that the OP says the problem is caused by living life to the full...it looks like the next generation in his family isn't going to learn much in the way of financial responsibility by parental example....
    Originally posted by TheGardener
    That doesn't follow in any way. What the degree costs will depend on what the graduate earns and how quickly (if ever) the loan is repaid.
    • mumps
    • By mumps 23rd Sep 16, 11:31 AM
    • 4,937 Posts
    • 10,348 Thanks
    mumps
    Lots of students on nursing courses do bank work - not only for the money but to benefit their CVs. In fact, a nursing graduate who hasn't done this is going to be in a far worse situation when applying for employment than one who has.
    Originally posted by missbiggles1
    Midwifery is even harder to fit a job round. If they are with a woman in labour they are "expected" to stay for the birth even if their shift has finished. If they are on a community placement they may be on call at night. It is really difficult. I suppose this might just be my local university but was definitely expected locally.

    It isn't easy for nursing students to earn much. They have short holidays so can't do full time work for several weeks in the summer. I used to employ several in my last job and their earnings were low over the year compared to other students who had much more time. They generally didn't want work when they were on placements as they were working 40 hrs plus on the ward and still having essays to do or revision for exams.

    I don't agree with your final point, one of my kids is a nurse and didn't do any bank work during their degree, got a first and their old placements were falling over themselves to offer employment.
    Sell £1500

    2831.00/£1500
    • missbiggles1
    • By missbiggles1 23rd Sep 16, 2:45 PM
    • 14,767 Posts
    • 26,606 Thanks
    missbiggles1
    Midwifery is even harder to fit a job round. If they are with a woman in labour they are "expected" to stay for the birth even if their shift has finished. If they are on a community placement they may be on call at night. It is really difficult. I suppose this might just be my local university but was definitely expected locally.

    It isn't easy for nursing students to earn much. They have short holidays so can't do full time work for several weeks in the summer. I used to employ several in my last job and their earnings were low over the year compared to other students who had much more time. They generally didn't want work when they were on placements as they were working 40 hrs plus on the ward and still having essays to do or revision for exams.

    I don't agree with your final point, one of my kids is a nurse and didn't do any bank work during their degree, got a first and their old placements were falling over themselves to offer employment.
    Originally posted by mumps
    There are always exceptions - I was talking more generally than one single individual.

    To add, the NHS encourages this and has specific facilities for student bank nurses, including access to paid holidays, training and the NHS pension scheme. It's a situation that's beneficial to all round.

    http://www.nhsprofessionals.nhs.uk/flexible/Pages/student-nurses.aspx
    • j-josie
    • By j-josie 23rd Sep 16, 5:07 PM
    • 191 Posts
    • 173 Thanks
    j-josie
    To the original poster: we have been in your situation and have supported 2 children through uni whilst being cash poor despite good incomes (not in your league though!)

    However, my approach was not that my contribution was offering 'help' to my child....it was my duty to 'make good' the reduction to his/her loan made by Student England on account of our household income. That was not their fault and I used the maximum loan/grant amount available per the website calculator as an indicator of what a student should expect to live on.

    Whatever the difference was, that was what we needed to give them to put them on par with a student from a low income family. And to be honest, as other posters said, that is not enough to cover accommodation and living costs so she/he got top ups at times and they both worked ( one in a pub and one as a carer - he was on a nursing course)
    They both received different amounts of support as our circumstances were different each time...DD got more student loan as my husband was out of work at that time.

    Could we afford it? Not really, but their low student loans were directly caused by our income so we saw it as something we needed to accept responsibility for. And we did - you have to become smart with money - Aldi and Lidl with just a little Waitrose thrown in; Groupon deals for treats. No holidays apart from visits to the students in their university towns ;-)
    Yes, we incurred debt ( overdraft, credit card as and when) but we don't regret it and we dealt with that after they graduated. That debt is a problem caused by ourselves not managing money better before they went to uni so we don't see it as is getting into debt for them. We did it to ourselves!

    They have both finished uni and are now working; are fully appreciative of the help they got and we are so very proud of the fine young people they are making their way in the world.
    And now, we get to be treated by them every so often. All is good :-)

    So, my advice is, just knuckle down and do a strict reappraisal of finances to make room for her 'support' payments. It's 3 years, less than that really. You can do it!
    Last edited by j-josie; 23-09-2016 at 5:09 PM. Reason: Error in text
    • mumps
    • By mumps 23rd Sep 16, 8:46 PM
    • 4,937 Posts
    • 10,348 Thanks
    mumps
    There are always exceptions - I was talking more generally than one single individual.

    To add, the NHS encourages this and has specific facilities for student bank nurses, including access to paid holidays, training and the NHS pension scheme. It's a situation that's beneficial to all round.

    http://www.nhsprofessionals.nhs.uk/flexible/Pages/student-nurses.aspx
    Originally posted by missbiggles1
    But the reality is that is much harder for them to work enough hours if their parents won't contribute. Just look at the difference in holidays for a start. Is it really beneficial to do a 40 hr placement plus uni work and then try to work some paid shifts? I think it terrible that they are losing the bursaries, maybe they should start getting NMW for time on placements.
    Sell £1500

    2831.00/£1500
    • missbiggles1
    • By missbiggles1 23rd Sep 16, 8:55 PM
    • 14,767 Posts
    • 26,606 Thanks
    missbiggles1
    But the reality is that is much harder for them to work enough hours if their parents won't contribute. Just look at the difference in holidays for a start. Is it really beneficial to do a 40 hr placement plus uni work and then try to work some paid shifts? I think it terrible that they are losing the bursaries, maybe they should start getting NMW for time on placements.
    Originally posted by mumps
    I agree that it's a shame that the bursary's gone. However, the advantage of bank work is that you do it to suit your other commitments so you don't have to do it as the same time as you're on placement if you can't cope.

    I have to say though, most of my clients were mature students (many were lone parents as well) and they coped with being on placement, university work and bringing up young children all at the same time so it should be perfectly possible for the average 18/19/20 year old to do the odd bank shift, even if it does mean giving up a couple of evenings in the bar.
    • mumps
    • By mumps 24th Sep 16, 2:55 PM
    • 4,937 Posts
    • 10,348 Thanks
    mumps
    I agree that it's a shame that the bursary's gone. However, the advantage of bank work is that you do it to suit your other commitments so you don't have to do it as the same time as you're on placement if you can't cope.

    I have to say though, most of my clients were mature students (many were lone parents as well) and they coped with being on placement, university work and bringing up young children all at the same time so it should be perfectly possible for the average 18/19/20 year old to do the odd bank shift, even if it does mean giving up a couple of evenings in the bar.
    Originally posted by missbiggles1
    I employed a lot of student nurses over the years, they tended to prefer it to bank work as I could plan shifts with them well in advance. They all went straight into employment without working on bank by the way.

    The amount your students would have needed to supplement their bursary will be very different to the OPs daughter. The support for single parent student nurses was excellent. I know of student nurses who were worse off financially when they qualified as they were getting such good support while studying so I can't imagine many of them did lots of shifts.

    If the OPs daughter doesn't get enough loan to cover her rent, quite possible on her parents earnings, how many hours do you reckon she would need to supplement her income?
    Sell £1500

    2831.00/£1500
    • missbiggles1
    • By missbiggles1 24th Sep 16, 3:24 PM
    • 14,767 Posts
    • 26,606 Thanks
    missbiggles1
    I employed a lot of student nurses over the years, they tended to prefer it to bank work as I could plan shifts with them well in advance. They all went straight into employment without working on bank by the way.

    The amount your students would have needed to supplement their bursary will be very different to the OPs daughter. The support for single parent student nurses was excellent. I know of student nurses who were worse off financially when they qualified as they were getting such good support while studying so I can't imagine many of them did lots of shifts.

    If the OPs daughter doesn't get enough loan to cover her rent, quite possible on her parents earnings, how many hours do you reckon she would need to supplement her income?
    Originally posted by mumps
    On a purely numerical basis and using NMW for the calculation, someone would need to work just under 600 hours pa to make up the deficit mentioned earlier. However, many trusts pay band 3 for year 2 and 3 students and, of course, there's unsocial hours payments to be taken into account as well, both of which would bring those numbers down considerably.

    Although nursing students get fewer holidays than in other areas, there are, as you know, 8 weeks of holidays and several study weeks a year so I doubt that many students would need to do more than one 12 hour shift a fortnight to make up the deficit if doing several shifts during holiday periods.

    I'm afraid that you've misunderstood my point about lone parents doing nurse training. Their financial situation was obviously better but I was referring to the fact that, having done exactly the same placement and university work as an 18/19/20 year old, they then had to go home and look after their own households and their own children, day in day out. I don't think anybody would argue that this was considerably more work than a younger student doing a bank shift would be putting in and with no choice in the matter.
    • mumps
    • By mumps 24th Sep 16, 3:39 PM
    • 4,937 Posts
    • 10,348 Thanks
    mumps
    On a purely numerical basis and using NMW for the calculation, someone would need to work just under 600 hours pa to make up the deficit mentioned earlier. However, many trusts pay band 3 for year 2 and 3 students and, of course, there's unsocial hours payments to be taken into account as well, both of which would bring those numbers down considerably.

    Although nursing students get fewer holidays than in other areas, there are, as you know, 8 weeks of holidays and several study weeks a year so I doubt that many students would need to do more than one 12 hour shift a fortnight to make up the deficit if doing several shifts during holiday periods.

    I'm afraid that you've misunderstood my point about lone parents doing nurse training. Their financial situation was obviously better but I was referring to the fact that, having done exactly the same placement and university work as an 18/19/20 year old, they then had to go home and look after their own households and their own children, day in day out. I don't think anybody would argue that this was considerably more work than a younger student doing a bank shift would be putting in and with no choice in the matter.
    Originally posted by missbiggles1
    At my local uni they get six weeks off a year not eight. On top of that they get 2 study weeks.

    Is that making up the shortfall in the loan or looking at what they might need over and above the loan? Even in years gone by most of my student nurses needed more hours than that if they didn't have parental support over and above what is expected.

    I never had a student nurse working for me who had children, it would seem very unfair on the children if mum or dad is working 40 hr week on placement, probably with travel time on top and I've known them have an hour each way to commute, and doing uni work and then working shifts as well. When would they see their family? As I said before if they were single parents they would get alot of financial support so I don't see why they would need to do that.

    That said the OP was talking about midwifery which seems more difficult. I am doing childcare with GC at the moment so that mum can do a midwifery degree and due to the unpredictable nature of labour they are often doing far more than 40 hrs with very unsociable hours. To be honest unless they have a partner who can do alot of the childcare or family to pick up children, have them to sleep over when working nights or starting early I don't know how they manage at all let alone working as well.

    Nurses and midwifery students will have a hard time without the bursaries and there is already a shortage, doesn't bode well for the future.
    Sell £1500

    2831.00/£1500
    • missbiggles1
    • By missbiggles1 24th Sep 16, 4:11 PM
    • 14,767 Posts
    • 26,606 Thanks
    missbiggles1
    At my local uni they get six weeks off a year not eight. On top of that they get 2 study weeks.

    Is that making up the shortfall in the loan or looking at what they might need over and above the loan? Even in years gone by most of my student nurses needed more hours than that if they didn't have parental support over and above what is expected.

    I never had a student nurse working for me who had children, it would seem very unfair on the children if mum or dad is working 40 hr week on placement, probably with travel time on top and I've known them have an hour each way to commute, and doing uni work and then working shifts as well. When would they see their family? As I said before if they were single parents they would get alot of financial support so I don't see why they would need to do that.


    That said the OP was talking about midwifery which seems more difficult. I am doing childcare with GC at the moment so that mum can do a midwifery degree and due to the unpredictable nature of labour they are often doing far more than 40 hrs with very unsociable hours. To be honest unless they have a partner who can do alot of the childcare or family to pick up children, have them to sleep over when working nights or starting early I don't know how they manage at all let alone working as well.

    Nurses and midwifery students will have a hard time without the bursaries and there is already a shortage, doesn't bode well for the future.
    Originally posted by mumps
    I used the word "deficit" - I think that's much the same thing as shortfall.

    I'm sorry, I've explained very carefully that I'm not talking about lone parents doing bank shifts but of looking after their own children - I really don't think I can put it more simply, sorry. (Mature students aren't the exception by the way - the average age for a nursing student is still 29.)

    The reason for shortages are, I feel, far more complicated than recruitment numbers, it was, after all, only 10 years ago that nurse unemployment was at an all time high. In fact, the year I retired (2007), our local university told all its new intake that they were likely to face unemployment when they graduated and this was in the introductory talk!

    Just to add, students will be no worst off without bursaries, in fact they'll actually receive more than they do with the bursary at present - however, they will have larger loans to pay off. (Which doesn't mean that I approve.)
    • mumps
    • By mumps 24th Sep 16, 5:45 PM
    • 4,937 Posts
    • 10,348 Thanks
    mumps
    I used the word "deficit" - I think that's much the same thing as shortfall.

    I'm sorry, I've explained very carefully that I'm not talking about lone parents doing bank shifts but of looking after their own children - I really don't think I can put it more simply, sorry. (Mature students aren't the exception by the way - the average age for a nursing student is still 29.)

    The reason for shortages are, I feel, far more complicated than recruitment numbers, it was, after all, only 10 years ago that nurse unemployment was at an all time high. In fact, the year I retired (2007), our local university told all its new intake that they were likely to face unemployment when they graduated and this was in the introductory talk!

    Just to add, students will be no worst off without bursaries, in fact they'll actually receive more than they do with the bursary at present - however, they will have larger loans to pay off. (Which doesn't mean that I approve.)
    Originally posted by missbiggles1
    So 12 hrs a fortnight would just replace what the parents aren't paying, that won't even cover halls for lots of places so they would probably need to work at least double that to pay rent and eat never mind a visit to the pub.

    I don't understand that about ten years ago, the student nurses I was employing then all went straight into jobs. Maybe it was regional? Or maybe branch of nursing?

    Yes I misunderstood about the students with children. I do think its a bit different though, I mean you can say sod cooking and get a take away at home but work isn't quite so flexible. Granted it is hard for parents, as I say with DIL she really couldn't do her degree if I wasn't able to do so many overnights, early mornings and school pick ups. Wrap around care only wraps so far.

    The bursary system used to be a bit different, admittedly it changed 3 or 4 years ago. What my local uni did was start everyone on the diploma for 2 years so they all got a full non means tested bursary, if they achieved a certain level in their studies they could opt to switch to the degree in year 3 and then went onto the means tested bursary which obviously meant a big drop in funding for some. I know not all unis did this but locally it meant decent funding for at least 2 of the 3 years. I thought it was a great way to ensure good funding for all the students.

    I know a new first year isn't going to be a great help on a ward but I think the NHS would be struggling without the work the 2nd and 3rd years do unpaid. It strikes me as exploitation.
    Sell £1500

    2831.00/£1500
    • Spendless
    • By Spendless 25th Sep 16, 2:30 PM
    • 18,804 Posts
    • 30,021 Thanks
    Spendless
    Something that hasn't been mentioned is that the student could work part-time during their sixth form years and save up from those earnings to help out during the Uni years. Or at least could use those earnings to pay their own way in the form of clothing, travel, toiletries etc leaving the parents to have some spare cash to put away for future years education.

    From the age given, isn't there at least a year from now before she'd go to Uni, so there's time to find some work.
    • missbiggles1
    • By missbiggles1 25th Sep 16, 2:33 PM
    • 14,767 Posts
    • 26,606 Thanks
    missbiggles1
    So 12 hrs a fortnight would just replace what the parents aren't paying, that won't even cover halls for lots of places so they would probably need to work at least double that to pay rent and eat never mind a visit to the pub.

    I don't understand that about ten years ago, the student nurses I was employing then all went straight into jobs. Maybe it was regional? Or maybe branch of nursing?

    Yes I misunderstood about the students with children. I do think its a bit different though, I mean you can say sod cooking and get a take away at home but work isn't quite so flexible. Granted it is hard for parents, as I say with DIL she really couldn't do her degree if I wasn't able to do so many overnights, early mornings and school pick ups. Wrap around care only wraps so far.

    The bursary system used to be a bit different, admittedly it changed 3 or 4 years ago. What my local uni did was start everyone on the diploma for 2 years so they all got a full non means tested bursary, if they achieved a certain level in their studies they could opt to switch to the degree in year 3 and then went onto the means tested bursary which obviously meant a big drop in funding for some. I know not all unis did this but locally it meant decent funding for at least 2 of the 3 years. I thought it was a great way to ensure good funding for all the students.

    I know a new first year isn't going to be a great help on a ward but I think the NHS would be struggling without the work the 2nd and 3rd years do unpaid. It strikes me as exploitation.
    Originally posted by mumps
    Most of my clients did the Higher Diploma rather than the degree, partly for the financial reasons you mention but also because it avoided crssing the Solent every day.
    • inkie
    • By inkie 26th Sep 16, 9:57 AM
    • 2,539 Posts
    • 2,363 Thanks
    inkie
    My daughter is in her third year at uni. Thankfully she is in a cheap place to live.
    Our household income is no where near the OPs - we fall in to the category of being too high for her to have got a grant, but not high enough that we are loaded and find it easy to support her. However, since she has been at uni we have given her £200 per month (not in a position to work as well as study at the moment due to health). She manages her money very well and has managed to add to her savings etc. We see it is a priority to support financially through uni.
    This year is different as she got married in the summer (her hubby is also a student), and we paid for the wedding. and
    Our income and his parents isn't now taken in to account this year as they are financially dependant upon each other and so as well as the loan, they will each have a grant as well and they will have a good income to live off. He works p/t and his parents give a financial contribution as well which I believe is carrying on. I know that they are sensible with their money and will be saving up for a house deposit and so we're happy to keep contributing as we made that commitment at the start of her studies

    It's a matter of priority and she'd be costing more than that if still at home
    • Luckystar
    • By Luckystar 27th Sep 16, 8:34 AM
    • 883 Posts
    • 3,083 Thanks
    Luckystar
    I think telling your 17 year old daughter that you are unable to help support her financially through uni would be a huge shock to her, especially as your household income has I assume provided her with a comfortable lifestyle up until now. I would look at your household budget and see where you are able to make cut backs and start saving! Like others have posted when she moves to uni your foods bills etc will decrease so you can use that towards an allowance for her. Someone said to me about 10 years ago that it's a myth children at non dependants at 18 years and more like 22/23. My kids are 18 and 17 (oldest just started uni) and I'm glad we started saving for them at birth and even though it was just a small monthly standing order being paid they both have some savings to help them through their uni education.
    • mumps
    • By mumps 27th Sep 16, 6:39 PM
    • 4,937 Posts
    • 10,348 Thanks
    mumps
    Most of my clients did the Higher Diploma rather than the degree, partly for the financial reasons you mention but also because it avoided crssing the Solent every day.
    Originally posted by missbiggles1
    I never understood why the support was different for the diploma and the degree but I did like the way they did it at son's university. His support halved during the last year but at least it was just one year and he had worked and saved during gap year so he had the money. We also gave him some support, his siblings all had support so he got the same, well similar at least.

    The good news is he is now starting a Masters which is being funded by his employer and he is getting paid time off to do it. I think he will be in an unusual position for his generation with a degree and masters and no debt.
    Sell £1500

    2831.00/£1500
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim's to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

144Posts Today

1,397Users online

Martin's Twitter