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  • FIRST POST
    • Leighannen
    • By Leighannen 21st Sep 16, 6:32 PM
    • 3Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Leighannen
    Accidental landlord - eviction advice needed
    • #1
    • 21st Sep 16, 6:32 PM
    Accidental landlord - eviction advice needed 21st Sep 16 at 6:32 PM
    Hi

    First of all I will start by saying I'm in far too deep without the relevant knowledge to call myself a proper landlord. And it's only now that I find myself in this tricky predicament that I've come to that realisation.... and basically not sure which way to turn.

    Last december I rented my property to a young family and almost immiadiately regretted it. The complaints started flowing both from neighbours and the LHA ( the property is a block of 6 and ex council) on each complaint I dutifully visited the tennants went through the issues ( noise, littering, damage to communal areas, fly tipping, breaking H&S rules... list goes on, but that gives you a general idea) and on each occasion was given assurances that there would be no further issues. It would go quiet for a month then I would get more complaints in! But all stayed pretty amicable with the tennants through these issues
    Anyway in June I got another letter from the LHA more damage, more noise, fly tipping, being abusive to one of their housing officers. Again I went to see the tennants and agreed that it wasn't working out and they would be best finding somewhere else. We agreed 2 months notice( giving them plenty of time to find elsewhere) and that was that. Again, still all amicable and no issues on that front

    Two weeks ago I receive a call from tennants, they are in the local council office and advising that i have not given the proper notice, contract expires 1st Dec and I can't do anything about it. Speaking to the HO, she advised the only thing I can do is issue eviction notice under section 8 and then they will act.

    So now I have issued a section 8 eviction notice citing grounds 12, 13 & 14 but the council have advised tenant to sit tight until court order and bailiffs are involved!!

    So my question is do I go down the route of attempting to get the court order under S8, which from what I have read may take months and might not be a given if judge takes pity on them. Or do I wait until the 12 months is up and then what route is available to me?

    To top it off things have really turned sour with the tennants and they have refused to pay this months rent( which was due on the 1st)

    Any advise? Apart from give up on being a landlord 😢

    Thanks in advance
Page 1
    • G_M
    • By G_M 21st Sep 16, 6:40 PM
    • 35,949 Posts
    • 39,289 Thanks
    G_M
    • #2
    • 21st Sep 16, 6:40 PM
    • #2
    • 21st Sep 16, 6:40 PM
    Hi

    Last december I rented my property to a young family and almost immiadiately regretted it.
    Length of tenancy? Exact dates please.
    ....


    ....I went to see the tennants and agreed.... We agreed 2 months notice( giving them plenty of time to find elsewhere) and that was that.
    verbally? in writing? S21 Notice? Exact dates please.

    Two weeks ago I receive a call from tennants, they are in the local council office and advising that i have not given the proper notice,
    Well, have you? See qurstions above.

    contract expires 1st Dec
    Exact date please
    and I can't do anything about it.
    Meaning what?
    Speaking to the HO, she advised the only thing I can do is issue eviction notice under section 8 and then they will act.
    You can serve a S21 Notice now to expire in December. As well as any S8.

    So now I have issued a section 8 eviction notice citing grounds 12, 13 & 14
    all discretionary grounds. You will need strong supporting evidence to convince a judge to evict.
    but the council have advised tenant to sit tight until court order and bailiffs are involved!!
    That is normal advice. Your S8 may fail.

    So my question is do I go down the route of attempting to get the court order under S8, which from what I have read may take months and might not be a given if judge takes pity on them. Or do I wait until the 12 months is up and then what route is available to me?
    S8 is quicker.
    But do both.

    To top it off things have really turned sour with the tennants and they have refused to pay this months rent( which was due on the 1st)
    If you are lucky, they will fail to pay next month too. As soon as the 2nd month's rent is overdue, serve a S8 Ground 8 Notice - this is mandatory so the judge has no choice but to evict.
    Originally posted by Leighannen
    Read:
    * Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?
    • KingS6
    • By KingS6 21st Sep 16, 6:41 PM
    • 359 Posts
    • 283 Thanks
    KingS6
    • #3
    • 21st Sep 16, 6:41 PM
    • #3
    • 21st Sep 16, 6:41 PM
    They have now not given you a month's rent. So even if the other reasons for a Section 8 fell through, you can start proceedings for a new Section 8 through non payment of rent. This has to be one month and one day since the rent was due of course.

    The reason the Council have advised them to stay put despite the impending court order/eviction process will be they have asked the Council to rehouse them.

    The council have no obligation to rehouse those who have made themselves intentionally homeless and that means leaving the property before they are formally evicted by the bailiffs.

    The Council have to cover their own backs too and be fair. They helped you and the neighbours by visiting the tenants when they were causing agro. Now they are following the correct process to help the tenants out by potentially rehousing them.

    Why would the judge take pity on them when the tenants have satisfied the grounds to have a Section 8 served on them (antisocial behaviour)? Especially serious cases such as abusing Council employees?
    Last edited by KingS6; 21-09-2016 at 6:45 PM.
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 21st Sep 16, 6:45 PM
    • 8,370 Posts
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    Pixie5740
    • #4
    • 21st Sep 16, 6:45 PM
    • #4
    • 21st Sep 16, 6:45 PM
    If you've had an accident you should get yourself down to A&E. It sounds like a pretty serious accident if afterwards you found yourself being a landlord.

    What exact date did the tenancy start? Is this a 12 month fixed term AST? Any chance there's a break clause you can use? Did you take a deposit? Did you register it?

    If the tenancy is still in the fixed term then you won't be able to evict using the Section 21 route until the fixed term has ended. So the council is correct that if you want the tenants gone before then you will need to use a Section 8 notice. Note that your notice does not end the tenancy that can only be done by the tenant or a court. Each of the Section 8 grounds you have used are discretionary grounds so the court may not grant you an eviction order. The good news is that if the tenants have stopped paying rent then you can issue a Section 8 Ground 8 if/when the tenants are 2 months in arrears (I'm assuming rent it paid monthly). That is a mandatory ground for eviction although if the tenants make up the some of the arrears before the court date it will be kicked out.

    See Ending/Renewing an AST for further information.

    My advice is to join a landlord association, read G_M's Guide for Tenants & Landlord in England/Wales and to take being a landlord seriously because the country doesn't need anymore rank amateurs !!!!ing with people's homes.
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
    • marksoton
    • By marksoton 21st Sep 16, 6:45 PM
    • 15,808 Posts
    • 35,426 Thanks
    marksoton
    • #5
    • 21st Sep 16, 6:45 PM
    • #5
    • 21st Sep 16, 6:45 PM
    In what possible sense are you an accidental LL? It seems you made a direct choice to be one.

    Take the salient advice above.
    I'm an idiot troll. Apparently...
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 21st Sep 16, 6:54 PM
    • 8,259 Posts
    • 10,770 Thanks
    theartfullodger
    • #6
    • 21st Sep 16, 6:54 PM
    • #6
    • 21st Sep 16, 6:54 PM
    A start in understanding the Landlord/tenant game might be to recognise that there are only 2 "n"s in tenant.

    Do either RLA or NLA basic landlord course to get rapidly aware of your responsibility.

    Who's fault was the accident do you think?
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 21st Sep 16, 7:19 PM
    • 11,176 Posts
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    Guest101
    • #7
    • 21st Sep 16, 7:19 PM
    • #7
    • 21st Sep 16, 7:19 PM
    As above.

    Also note these complaints aren't for you to necessarily deal with.

    Advise neighbours to complain to the council. Or police where appropriate.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 21st Sep 16, 7:20 PM
    • 11,176 Posts
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    Guest101
    • #8
    • 21st Sep 16, 7:20 PM
    • #8
    • 21st Sep 16, 7:20 PM
    Deposit protected? Just wondering if you are likely to get sued

    In fact what about the rent guide? As it. Seems to be within detey act?
    • csgohan4
    • By csgohan4 21st Sep 16, 7:35 PM
    • 2,137 Posts
    • 1,336 Thanks
    csgohan4
    • #9
    • 21st Sep 16, 7:35 PM
    • #9
    • 21st Sep 16, 7:35 PM
    I hope your sake you have done the gas safety checks and deposit protected at the least or your going to be shafted even more
    • G_M
    • By G_M 21st Sep 16, 7:38 PM
    • 35,949 Posts
    • 39,289 Thanks
    G_M
    Hey guys! give him a break - the point is made.

    But some good points about checking validity of any S21 before it is served:

    A S21 is invalid if:

    a) served before/at the same time as the tenancy starts
    b) served before deposit has been registered & the deposit's ‘Prescribed Information’ given to the tenant
    c) incorrect dates/notice period
    d)
    expiry date is within 1st 6 months of original tenancy
    e) For tenancies starting after 1st October 2015:
    - served in 1st 4 months
    - new tenancy Prescribed Information has not been supplied (EPC, gas report,
    "how to rent), or
    -
    council has served a repairing enforcement notice on the landlord, following a complaint by a tenant. See
    Enforcing repairs here.
    Last edited by G_M; 21-09-2016 at 7:58 PM.
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 21st Sep 16, 7:48 PM
    • 8,370 Posts
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    Pixie5740
    If a landlord hasn't protected the deposit then they're able to return the full deposit before issuing the Section 21. How do they get around a lack of EPC, GSC or "how to rent" booklet? Do they just need to issue the missing items before issuing the Section 21?
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
    • harrys dad
    • By harrys dad 21st Sep 16, 8:01 PM
    • 1,686 Posts
    • 1,875 Thanks
    harrys dad
    Joining the Residential Landlords Association (RLA) costs just £79 a year and you can save that much by getting your landlord's insurance for the house through them (you have got insurance?) . They have templates for everything, good guidance on their website and will offer help too.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 21st Sep 16, 8:13 PM
    • 35,949 Posts
    • 39,289 Thanks
    G_M
    If a landlord hasn't protected the deposit then they're able to return the full deposit before issuing the Section 21. How do they get around a lack of EPC, GSC or "how to rent" booklet? Do they just need to issue the missing items before issuing the Section 21?
    Originally posted by Pixie5740
    I believe once the documents are provided a S21 can be served.

    Regulation 2 prescribes certain requirements for the purposes of section 21A of the Act
    (compliance with prescribed legal requirements): these are the requirement to provide tenants with
    an energy performance certificate under regulation 6(5) of the Energy Performance of Buildings
    (England and Wales) Regulations 2012 and the requirement to provide tenants with a gas safety
    certificate under regulation 36 of the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998.
    However, the requirement to provide tenants with a gas safety certificate is limited to the
    requirement on a landlord to give a copy of the relevant record to the tenant and the 28 day period
    for compliance with that requirement does not apply. The “no fault” eviction procedure for
    assured shorthold tenancies is not available to landlords at a time when either of the requirements
    has not been complied with.

    Regulation 3 requires a landlord to provide tenants with a copy of the Department for
    Communities and Local Government’s booklet entitled “How to rent: the checklist for renting in
    England” which can be found at the following web address:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-rent. Landlords are not required to supply a
    further copy of the booklet each time a different version is published during a tenancy. The
    requirement does not apply where a landlord is a registered provider of social housing or where a
    landlord has already provided the tenant with an up-to-date version of the booklet under an earlier
    tenancy. The “no fault” eviction procedure for assured shorthold tenancies is not available to
    landlords at a time when the requirement has not been complied with.
    See notes within:
    New S21 Notice (Form 6a) & PI
    • Leighannen
    • By Leighannen 21st Sep 16, 11:29 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Leighannen
    Hi GM

    Thanks for taking the time to respond, really is appreciated. I will go through your queries as noted (cant quote your message as not allowed by newbies?)


    *It was an Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement for a term of 12 months from 1st December 2015

    *I issued the notice in writing but not s21 - just details of tenant, landlord,,property and the date which mutually agreed with the tenant (1st October). Now I know this was invalid and not worth the paper it was written on!

    *Re Grounds for S8, I have several emails from the Housing Assoc detailing the issues encountered. I have also asked for written statements from both them and the neighbours. Assume the fact that they are from an official source, this may lend some weight to the case. The fact that she had a full on argument (very threatening and abusive apparently)with the Housing association housing officer surely is quite a big tick against them.

    *The next rent is due on 1st October. So at this point if it goes unpaid and they remain in the property can I issue an S8 citing 8,12,13 & 14 and apply to court within 2 weeks. Or does it need to be solely under ground 8? Will this be the quickest route?

    In response to other queries. By accidental I mean it was my choice of profession, I have a 9-5 day job but inherited this flat from my mum. I did try to sell it but with little success, so decided to rent it (with the attitude that it 'cant be that hard'... how wrong was I!!) So maybe you are right, I made to choice to do this

    The Gas Safety check was done (although, due again mid October) and EPC is done, had no idea about 'how to rent' or registering the deposit, which I know now is so so foolish - but it was put away in an unused account untouched, so could register it straight away if this is a requirement of the S8 route?

    Right now I just want the ground to swallow me up and this to go away - but its not and I'm in it sh*t high!!
    • G_M
    • By G_M 21st Sep 16, 11:53 PM
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    G_M
    So you have two problems:

    1) you cannot serve a S21 if that is the route you decide on without first
    * returning the deposit in full
    * serving the EPC on tenant (ir is not enough just to have one!)
    * serving the 'how to rent' guide

    2) whatever you do, you are now vulnerable to the tenant claiming a penalty (up to 3 times the deposit) for failing to protect it. There is nothing you can do to avoid this (except hope the tenant does not know), though you can reduce the penalty by registering it now or returning it.

    If you go down the rent arrears (S8) route, you must hope the tenant is not clued up: if the arrears are reduced to below 2 months rent after you serve the S8 but before the court date, ground 8 cannot be used.

    For the non mandatory grounds, the more independant written statements the better, though they must be relevant, and clear. A police report would help too.

    You can cite multiple grounds.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 22nd Sep 16, 7:57 AM
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    Guest101
    I don't understand why the Housing Officer was even speaking to them? They aren't his tenants.

    I think eviction on this ground will fail. If they had a conviction of some sort then different story. The court would point out that official bodies exist to deal with anti social behaviour
    • Leighannen
    • By Leighannen 22nd Sep 16, 2:10 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Leighannen
    I have had a phonecall from the council HO this morning who is looking at their case. She has indicated that they will offer them temp accom before i get a court order, but tenants are not obliged to accept. From what I have read and been told before, I'm not too confident that this will be the case ( offering temp accom)



    Also had an email from the Housing Assoc HO, they have been causing more trouble at the property - more evidence I guess but as I have no leverage with the tenants i can't really act on it. it's really difficult as both me ( when I was younger) and my mum were neighbours with these people for 30 years and their life's have now been made a misery.

    Guest I'm not too sure why the HO from the HA spoke to them. Assume they were at the property to see 'their' tenants and witness the issues and happened to bump into them
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 22nd Sep 16, 2:22 PM
    • 11,176 Posts
    • 10,499 Thanks
    Guest101
    I have had a phonecall from the council HO this morning who is looking at their case. She has indicated that they will offer them temp accom before i get a court order, but tenants are not obliged to accept. From what I have read and been told before, I'm not too confident that this will be the case ( offering temp accom)



    Also had an email from the Housing Assoc HO, they have been causing more trouble at the property - more evidence I guess but as I have no leverage with the tenants i can't really act on it. it's really difficult as both me ( when I was younger) and my mum were neighbours with these people for 30 years and their life's have now been made a misery.

    Guest I'm not too sure why the HO from the HA spoke to them. Assume they were at the property to see 'their' tenants and witness the issues and happened to bump into them
    Originally posted by Leighannen


    I don't see anything 'official' from a HA, anymore than from a petshop or a garage.


    If they are causing communal damage, the Freeholder (Presumebly HA) need to take that up with you.


    If they are being anti social, the Neighbours / HA need to take it up with the council and the police.


    If they are in their own property, and a stranger knocks on the door, they are well with-in their right o tell them to 'jog on' (or any other words they wish to use).


    If you are looking to evict, you need to work closely with the council, issue s.8 and hope they don't sue you. Have you protected the deposit today?


    This isn't going to be resolved any time soon, but you can limit your losses
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 22nd Sep 16, 2:32 PM
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    Pixie5740
    I guess it will come down to what a judge thinks in the end. With a bit of luck the tenants will do you a favour and not pay the rent 1st October and will make no attempt to clear some/all the arrears before court. That's the quickest way out of this mess for you.
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
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