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  • FIRST POST
    • omega1987
    • By omega1987 21st Sep 16, 10:00 AM
    • 6Posts
    • 4Thanks
    omega1987
    leaving without working notice period
    • #1
    • 21st Sep 16, 10:00 AM
    leaving without working notice period 21st Sep 16 at 10:00 AM
    Hello,

    I'm considering quitting my job as a maintenance worker at a primary school following an altercation with the head teacher who as far as I'm concerned is invading my privacy by frequently viewing my social media and failing to line manage me.

    I received an overpayment in early 2012 which I informed the school about and spent months trying to resolve (I still have the emails to prove this) but in the end the school just said they'd claim it back when I leave. I also received training back in February this year which I'm assuming they'll want to deduct from my final wage.

    I would like to work my one month notice period however my concerns are that I won't receive any payment for this period once training fees and the overpayment have been deducted and I cannot afford to miss a months wages.

    If I was offered another job and left my current one without notice just to continue receiving a monthly wage could I be sued?

    Would I be able to work my notice period and be able to repay any outstanding training fees and the overpayment in installments that won't leave me in financial difficulty after I've left?

    Any advice would be much appreciated, thank you.
Page 1
    • YouAsked
    • By YouAsked 21st Sep 16, 10:27 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    YouAsked
    • #2
    • 21st Sep 16, 10:27 AM
    • #2
    • 21st Sep 16, 10:27 AM
    Hello,

    I'm considering quitting my job as a maintenance worker at a primary school following an altercation with the head teacher who as far as I'm concerned is invading my privacy by frequently viewing my social media and failing to line manage me.

    I received an overpayment in early 2012 which I informed the school about and spent months trying to resolve (I still have the emails to prove this) but in the end the school just said they'd claim it back when I leave. I also received training back in February this year which I'm assuming they'll want to deduct from my final wage.

    I would like to work my one month notice period however my concerns are that I won't receive any payment for this period once training fees and the overpayment have been deducted and I cannot afford to miss a months wages.

    If I was offered another job and left my current one without notice just to continue receiving a monthly wage could I be sued?

    Would I be able to work my notice period and be able to repay any outstanding training fees and the overpayment in installments that won't leave me in financial difficulty after I've left?

    Any advice would be much appreciated, thank you.
    Originally posted by omega1987
    Social media - you need to ensure all you accounts are on private and you've blocked headteacher where you can. If you don't want to do this then you need to ensure that your postings are as innocuous as possible. Even on private settings you don't have a leg to stand on if you're posting anything "dodgy" - once you post it, you don't "own" it anymore and anyone can print off/screenshot and distribute what you've posted.

    Overpayment - You've had four years to put money aside to repay this overpayment. From the sound of things, your relationship with the headteacher has broken down - I suspect they'd be happy to just draw a line under things and wave you goodbye with minimum fuss and not bother dedicating time/money to recovering what you owe (I'm assuming it's quite a small amount if it can be covered from one salary payment). However, some people are very dogmatic and you *might* come up against someone who - for matters of principle (or spite!) - is committed to recovering this money - you're the best judge of whether that is likely. While you may get away with paying what you owe, I wouldn't count on a reference - or at least a good one!

    There's some good advice on you.gov regarding deductions from salary - google and it'll take you directly there.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 21st Sep 16, 11:21 AM
    • 11,251 Posts
    • 10,567 Thanks
    Guest101
    • #3
    • 21st Sep 16, 11:21 AM
    • #3
    • 21st Sep 16, 11:21 AM
    Hello,

    I'm considering quitting my job as a maintenance worker at a primary school following an altercation with the head teacher who as far as I'm concerned is invading my privacy by frequently viewing my social media and failing to line manage me. - Right, how is your head teacher invading your 'privacy' if you post thing available publically. Don't be absurd.

    I received an overpayment in early 2012 which I informed the school about and spent months trying to resolve (I still have the emails to prove this) but in the end the school just said they'd claim it back when I leave. I also received training back in February this year which I'm assuming they'll want to deduct from my final wage. - Well you can assume, but what does your contract say?

    I would like to work my one month notice period however my concerns are that I won't receive any payment for this period once training fees and the overpayment have been deducted and I cannot afford to miss a months wages.

    If I was offered another job and left my current one without notice just to continue receiving a monthly wage could I be sued? - Ofcourse. You might not lose, but anyone can sue anyone else.

    Would I be able to work my notice period and be able to repay any outstanding training fees and the overpayment in installments that won't leave me in financial difficulty after I've left? - What is the policy on this?

    Any advice would be much appreciated, thank you.
    Originally posted by omega1987


    It seems that you are most likely not going to win this.


    Given there was an overpayment, presumably you kept this to one side as a rainy day fund?
    • omega1987
    • By omega1987 21st Sep 16, 11:46 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    omega1987
    • #4
    • 21st Sep 16, 11:46 AM
    • #4
    • 21st Sep 16, 11:46 AM
    Thank you.

    I should have put the money aside but a combination of frozen pay and recently getting married have depleted my savings somewhat. My predecessor was in the job for 30 odd years and I was originally planning a similar stint but the head seems to have a talent for driving people away as I'm one of the few members of staff left from before his appointment only a couple of years back.

    As far as social media goes, I didn't post anything inappropriate and I asked the head what specifically was wrong with my post. He couldn't give me an answer and I've not received any training on personal use of social media nor was I shown the schools online policy so think this was nothing more than an excuse to harass me. I would be happy for a potential future employer to see my profile.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 21st Sep 16, 12:13 PM
    • 11,251 Posts
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    Guest101
    • #5
    • 21st Sep 16, 12:13 PM
    • #5
    • 21st Sep 16, 12:13 PM
    So raise a grievance.


    You've been there a while, you have employment rights.


    (though it's part of your responsibility to be appraised with policies, as long as they are accessible)
    • Lily-Rose
    • By Lily-Rose 21st Sep 16, 12:38 PM
    • 1,940 Posts
    • 6,239 Thanks
    Lily-Rose
    • #6
    • 21st Sep 16, 12:38 PM
    • #6
    • 21st Sep 16, 12:38 PM
    Have to ask (as someone did above) how can he see what you're putting on social media? You can put everything you have on facebook for friends only to see, and as for twitter, you can make your tweets private, so no-one can see them except your followers.

    Chances are the won't stand for you just jacking it in with a day's notice, and will take action.

    Giving up your job because 'your boss looks at your facebook' seems like an odd reason to jack in your job!
    Proud to have lost over 3 stone (45 pounds,) in the past year! Now a size 14!

    Proud to be debt free.

    Slave to 2 mad cats.
    • omega1987
    • By omega1987 21st Sep 16, 12:50 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    omega1987
    • #7
    • 21st Sep 16, 12:50 PM
    • #7
    • 21st Sep 16, 12:50 PM
    Have to ask (as someone did above) how can he see what you're putting on social media? You can put everything you have on facebook for friends only to see, and as for twitter, you can make your tweets private, so no-one can see them except your followers.

    Chances are the won't stand for you just jacking it in with a day's notice, and will take action.

    Giving up your job because 'your boss looks at your facebook' seems like an odd reason to jack in your job!
    Originally posted by Lily-Rose
    I would be leaving more on my principles than anything. My employer may be legally allowed to check my public posts but the fact that they're obviously spending more time doing this than actually fulfilling their managerial responsibilities isn't acceptable to me especially as I do far more for the school than I actually get paid for.

    Once the goodwill's gone do am I.
    • spadoosh
    • By spadoosh 21st Sep 16, 1:09 PM
    • 3,407 Posts
    • 4,237 Thanks
    spadoosh
    • #8
    • 21st Sep 16, 1:09 PM
    • #8
    • 21st Sep 16, 1:09 PM
    Hello,

    I'm considering quitting my job as a maintenance worker at a primary school following an altercation with the head teacher who as far as I'm concerned is invading my privacy by frequently viewing my social media and failing to line manage me.

    I received an overpayment in early 2012 which I informed the school about and spent months trying to resolve (I still have the emails to prove this) but in the end the school just said they'd claim it back when I leave. I also received training back in February this year which I'm assuming they'll want to deduct from my final wage.

    I would like to work my one month notice period however my concerns are that I won't receive any payment for this period once training fees and the overpayment have been deducted and I cannot afford to miss a months wages.

    If I was offered another job and left my current one without notice just to continue receiving a monthly wage could I be sued? Yes

    Would I be able to work my notice period and be able to repay any outstanding training fees and the overpayment in installments that won't leave me in financial difficulty after I've left? at the discretion of the person wanting the money

    Any advice would be much appreciated, thank you.
    Originally posted by omega1987
    A company is allowed to recover some of the costs incurred, this will include the 'loan' (overpayment) and might include training (heck your contract).

    The only way you can know for sure is to either ask or to leave and see what happens. Some thigns to consider:

    Leaving without notice is going to annoy people, chances are theyll be more inclined invoke karma.

    If you do leave without notice as to avoid the repayments take note of cut off dates most places work with a few weeks lee way. Which could mean they would be deducting something anyway.

    Think about holidays. Any received but not accrued will be deducted.

    Id be impressed if they have got all the admin for the deduction and that it will be remembered (particularly if there is new staff doing the payroll)



    I can imagine they come down on facebook pretty hard at schools. Clearly something has drawn their attention to your social media which they either dontlike or believe could be interpreted by a parent in a bad manner. Irrespective of rights and wrongs, it would be wise to curb your usage and closely filter what you put especially as it appears you will be checked regularly. Unsure as to how you use social media but ive never been questioned on my sharing photos of family and or my landscape/wildlife photos, if you express opinion be prepared to be judged.
    Don't be angry!
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 21st Sep 16, 4:28 PM
    • 1,826 Posts
    • 1,555 Thanks
    Undervalued
    • #9
    • 21st Sep 16, 4:28 PM
    • #9
    • 21st Sep 16, 4:28 PM
    Thank you.

    I should have put the money aside but a combination of frozen pay and recently getting married have depleted my savings somewhat. My predecessor was in the job for 30 odd years and I was originally planning a similar stint but the head seems to have a talent for driving people away as I'm one of the few members of staff left from before his appointment only a couple of years back.

    As far as social media goes, I didn't post anything inappropriate and I asked the head what specifically was wrong with my post. He couldn't give me an answer and I've not received any training on personal use of social media nor was I shown the schools online policy so think this was nothing more than an excuse to harass me. I would be happy for a potential future employer to see my profile.
    Originally posted by omega1987
    But the head is not "invading your privacy" as you claimed earlier. You chose to post something on a public site so you can't complain about anybody viewing it. If you had set appropriate privacy settings and the head had somehow "hacked" past them you might have had a complaint.

    You don't need to be specifically "shown" the school's online policy. You work there, it is up to you to read the rules and abide by them.

    The head may or may not have a management style that "drives people away". However unless he is doing anything unlawful or contrary to the policies of whoever governs the school then there is little or nothing you can do about it.

    Training costs can only lawful be recovered if there is a specific agreement in place. Even then the amount must be reasonable and proportionate. A general policy is not sufficient in this case.

    99.9% of the time any overpayment, regardless of who's fault it was, can lawfully be recovered. They can make deductions from your final pay for this, all the way down to zero if necessary, and send you a bill for anything still owing!

    If you leave without giving proper notice then they could, in theory, sue you for any unavoidable losses this causes them. It is unusual but it can and does happen.
    • omega1987
    • By omega1987 21st Sep 16, 5:32 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    omega1987
    But the head is not "invading your privacy" as you claimed earlier. You chose to post something on a public site so you can't complain about anybody viewing it. If you had set appropriate privacy settings and the head had somehow "hacked" past them you might have had a complaint.

    You don't need to be specifically "shown" the school's online policy. You work there, it is up to you to read the rules and abide by them.

    The head may or may not have a management style that "drives people away". However unless he is doing anything unlawful or contrary to the policies of whoever governs the school then there is little or nothing you can do about it.

    Training costs can only lawful be recovered if there is a specific agreement in place. Even then the amount must be reasonable and proportionate. A general policy is not sufficient in this case.

    99.9% of the time any overpayment, regardless of who's fault it was, can lawfully be recovered. They can make deductions from your final pay for this, all the way down to zero if necessary, and send you a bill for anything still owing!

    If you leave without giving proper notice then they could, in theory, sue you for any unavoidable losses this causes them. It is unusual but it can and does happen.
    Originally posted by Undervalued
    I rarely use social media and the fact that I was called into his office the day after I posted something suggests to me that it's being checked daily. The school may be allowed to do it but I consider that an invasion of privacy. It is my choice to leave somewhere I don't like and the only looser would be the school who will have lost an excellent maintenance engineer, I can literally walk out of this job and into another that pays at least as well. If the school can find someone who'll tolerate the organisation then everyone's a winner.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 21st Sep 16, 6:48 PM
    • 1,826 Posts
    • 1,555 Thanks
    Undervalued
    I rarely use social media and the fact that I was called into his office the day after I posted something suggests to me that it's being checked daily. The school may be allowed to do it but I consider that an invasion of privacy. It is my choice to leave somewhere I don't like and the only looser would be the school who will have lost an excellent maintenance engineer, I can literally walk out of this job and into another that pays at least as well. If the school can find someone who'll tolerate the organisation then everyone's a winner.
    Originally posted by omega1987
    Well do so then! If you can easily find another job that you would prefer on similar money then it would be silly not to.

    I would however strongly suggest you give the proper notice. By all means ASK them if they will agree to less but walking out, even if you don't get sued, has a habit of coming back to bite you.

    And yes, the school is allowed to look at anything you post in the public domain regardless of whether you consider it a breach of privacy or not!
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 21st Sep 16, 10:18 PM
    • 2,081 Posts
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    sangie595
    Assuming you are as good at your job as you say you are, that your role is business critical (which it probably is), and that they would need to engage someone immediately even if only in the short term - which is often more expensive - then the chances of them suing you increase exponentially. Especially if they are going to be coming after you for other monies owed.

    And you really are getting your knickers in a twist about principles that do not exist. If you are so concerned that your social media posts should not be viewed, as others have said, either make them private or don't post them in the first place. You also have no idea whether they are being viewed daily, and even if they are, who by. For all you know someone else has brought something to the attention of the head teacher. And as for the head teacher supposed to be doing something other than checking your social media posts, judging by the times you have been posting here today, isn't it a school day and don't you have something else you should be doing?

    You see how easy it is to make assumptions about people?

    I don't suppose that the altercation was about the times the posts were made rather than their content, was it?
    • omega1987
    • By omega1987 21st Sep 16, 10:36 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    omega1987
    Assuming you are as good at your job as you say you are, that your role is business critical (which it probably is), and that they would need to engage someone immediately even if only in the short term - which is often more expensive - then the chances of them suing you increase exponentially. Especially if they are going to be coming after you for other monies owed.

    And you really are getting your knickers in a twist about principles that do not exist. If you are so concerned that your social media posts should not be viewed, as others have said, either make them private or don't post them in the first place. You also have no idea whether they are being viewed daily, and even if they are, who by. For all you know someone else has brought something to the attention of the head teacher. And as for the head teacher supposed to be doing something other than checking your social media posts, judging by the times you have been posting here today, isn't it a school day and don't you have something else you should be doing?

    You see how easy it is to make assumptions about people?

    I don't suppose that the altercation was about the times the posts were made rather than their content, was it?
    Originally posted by sangie595
    I work a split shift and these posts were written outside these hours.
    • Mersey
    • By Mersey 22nd Sep 16, 1:03 AM
    • 1,111 Posts
    • 507 Thanks
    Mersey

    You don't need to be specifically "shown" the school's online policy. You work there, it is up to you to read the rules and abide by them.
    Originally posted by Undervalued

    That's untrue. A firm does have to make employees aware of company policies in order for them to be enforceable and there's case law on that point.


    Omega1987 - It certainly sounds intriguing (that the Head is apparently monitoring your social media). I suppose you could raise this as a grievance, but there seems little point if you're leaving.


    The only similar employment case I can think of was a teacher monitoring pupils' social media, but that also involved stalking and inappropriate language - hence the teacher was barred from the profession. Unless the Head is doing anything like this, they can potentially argue that it's within their remit (just) to monitor yourself. Still an odd one though, particularly as you're not a fellow teacher.


    Whether the Head objects to your politics, views on religion or football team - who knows. If you were 'called on' in a disciplinary sense, you should really have been given a copy of any complaint and so on and allowed to respond. Although I realise a lot of employers don't abide by the basics of procedure in reality.


    You have ECHR rights re freedom of expression. It's true that many firms will discipline you if you bring them into disrepute on social media and such policies have been upheld when challenged in the Courts. But as you haven't done this, I imagine the Head would have difficulty if he wanted to cite your posts as eg gross misconduct.


    Although some schools these days do seem to believe they can unilaterally lay down whatever arbitrary rules they like, irrespective of the law. It's currently fashionable for schools to try to get prospective parents to sign agreements not to mention the school adversely on online forums, even though such gagging clauses would not be enforceable.


    [Indeed, far from being silenced, whistleblowing and the CSE Inquiry is now resulting in teachers, priests and so on being charged with eg historical child abuse - although of course this should be reported to the authorities rather than naming and shaming online]
    Last edited by Mersey; 22-09-2016 at 1:24 AM.
    Please be polite to OPs and remember this is a site for Claimants and Appellants to seek redress against their bank, ex-boss or retailer. If they wanted morality or the view of the IoD or Bank they'd ask them.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 22nd Sep 16, 8:45 AM
    • 2,081 Posts
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    sangie595
    I work a split shift and these posts were written outside these hours.
    Originally posted by omega1987
    Of course. But you missed the point. The point was that people reading online material may make assumptions that aren't accurate; and that you have made assumptions that the head is monitoring your online activity daily or that he even say your posts and it wasn't someone else who directed him to them.

    Nor, to be objective, can we assume that he hasn't been right to raise an issue about something you may have written. It's very odd that you seem to have absolutely no objection to any other employer reading the material that you post publically on line, just this one. So you don't mind anyone else "invading your privacy" but he isn't supposed to?

    But anyway, the fact is that it is still the case that the school would be perfectly entitled to come after you for quantifiable losses as a result of your failing to give notice, and that leaving owing them further monies would probably increase the risk of that, as the more you owe, the more worthwhile it would be. Whilst coming after you for quantifiable loss is actually quite rare (because it is seldom a high value claim), you are taking a greater risk by leaving having not paid back whatever other monies you might owe - including, unless you are paid in arrears, any pay you have received in advance. Whether they do or not is anyone's guess.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 22nd Sep 16, 10:40 AM
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    getmore4less
    Never a good idea to mess with the education system as an employee.

    It is a very small world and no matter how frustrating always play by the book unless you want to start closing doors to all the schools in the area.

    You need to rise above this and move on, find that other new job, resign and work full notice.

    Ultimately the parents and governors will decide the fate of the head.
    • marlot
    • By marlot 22nd Sep 16, 1:49 PM
    • 2,766 Posts
    • 1,912 Thanks
    marlot
    ...left my current one without notice just to continue receiving a monthly wage could I be sued?...
    Originally posted by omega1987
    Yes.

    I recruited someone who didn't work his notice (his employer apparently had a habit of not paying up). He was successfully sued for the cost of them bringing in an agency person to cover his shifts.
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 22nd Sep 16, 1:51 PM
    • 11,251 Posts
    • 10,567 Thanks
    Guest101
    Yes.

    I recruited someone who didn't work his notice (his employer apparently had a habit of not paying up). He was successfully sued for the cost of them bringing in an agency person to cover his shifts.
    Originally posted by marlot


    Possibly because he didn't turn up to court?


    I only say this as they can only sue for additional costs.


    So the cost of bringing someone in, less the cost of paying the chap his usual wage. Usually this is negligible and that's why most don't bother
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 22nd Sep 16, 3:31 PM
    • 1,826 Posts
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    Undervalued
    That's untrue. A firm does have to make employees aware of company policies in order for them to be enforceable and there's case law on that point.

    Originally posted by Mersey
    "Make aware" yes. "Specifically shown" no as I said.

    OK, it is a fine point and it depends a bit on your or my interpretation of words. However, the point I was making was telling employees to make themselves familiar with a set of policies which are available to them (maybe on the intranet or in a staff handbook) is more than sufficient.

    I took the OP to be complaining that because the policy wasn't somehow rammed down his throat he could claim to be unaware of it!
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 22nd Sep 16, 3:35 PM
    • 1,826 Posts
    • 1,555 Thanks
    Undervalued
    Possibly because he didn't turn up to court?


    I only say this as they can only sue for additional costs.


    So the cost of bringing someone in, less the cost of paying the chap his usual wage. Usually this is negligible and that's why most don't bother
    Originally posted by Guest101
    True, as far as wages are concerned, but there can be other knock on costs such as loss of business.

    As I said earlier, such claims are not all that common. However given that there seem to be an "uneasy" relationship with the Head, who the OP feels is difficult, maybe it could just happen here.

    If the maintenance man walks out without notice it may well take a day or two to find an alternative at any price. Yes the firm has saved two day's wages and this must be deducted but that could be a drop in the ocean against two days lost production.
    Last edited by Undervalued; 22-09-2016 at 4:10 PM.
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