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  • FIRST POST
    • SarahJeff
    • By SarahJeff 20th Sep 16, 10:50 PM
    • 3Posts
    • 2Thanks
    SarahJeff
    Millennium to Gladstones, not PoFa compliant, advice sought
    • #1
    • 20th Sep 16, 10:50 PM
    Millennium to Gladstones, not PoFa compliant, advice sought 20th Sep 16 at 10:50 PM
    Hello,
    Firstly – thank you for the great advice on here. I have read the newbies thread numerous times since my tussle with a PPN began and found it very useful, as well as pointing users in the direction of other forums and websites. I’m quite far along in this now…

    In June 2015 I parked for about 15- 20 minutes in the area surrounding a petrol station. I returned to find a PCN for £100 (£60 if paid in 14 days) from Millennium Parking Services, and only then found a sign behind a tree stating that only permit holders could park for more than 10 minutes (I had been “done” at 11 mins.)

    Also there were some signs I had not seen simply saying “no parking”. I took pictures. I had not found your excellent site at this point and did nothing until I received the notice to the owner in September 2015 from Parking Collection Services (now asking for £150) which is when I started to do my research.

    I wrote to Parking Collection Services pointing out that I declined to say who the driver was and as keeper of the vehicle I did not have liability for the driver’s alleged “debt” as they had not met the requirements of PoFa 2012 (had not informed me as keeper in time). I was not offered a POPLA code, but I guess I had missed the boat there? Millennium is no longer part of BPA but it was back then.

    I then received a series of letters from Debt Recovery Plus then Zenith asking for £150, then £127.50, then £80, which I ignored.

    Recently I received a “letter before claim” from Gladstones Solicitors (which didn’t really look much different to the debt collector letters) and using the advice on here wrote a robust response within the 14 days. Key points were that their client was not compliant with PoFA and had no case, and that if this was a true letter before claim as opposed to a debt collection letter they needed to comply with the practice direction. (I relied heavily on Daisy’s posting from 2013. I found it extremely useful but I hope the info is not out of date! Practice direction has changed since then so users need to be careful to quote paragraph 6 and not Annex A as it was back then.)

    It looks from the info out here that Gladstones will take me to court anyway. I’ve seen the parking prankster reports about how rubbish they are. However, with no experience of court I don’t really understand how, if there is a law saying the keeper is not liable without complying with PoFa 2012, they have a case? Or do they? The thing is, I cannot deny in court that I WAS the driver, so doesn’t my whole case fall apart? Or would it actually be dismissed before getting to this stage? (For all I know they have a photo of me as driver although all letters have been to me as keeper.)

    I’m wary of posting my actual correspondence up here as the wordage would identify me and could be used to show I was the driver!

    I do probably have lots of points to fight on such as the poor signage, had my 2 young children with me crossing a busy road, and the charge of £100 for being parked for 11 minutes in somewhere that is free to park for 10 mins (which later mysteriously was increased to £150). However, I am expecting a baby in a few weeks and although we can’t really afford it, my husband wants me to pay the charge just to alleviate the stress involved in this (and all the time on forums and drafting letters and defences!) I feel they just WIN then, and this encourages PPNs to continue in this sort of shocking behaviour and scare tactics for the times that it works. It does feel like harassment.
    However, I expect I will drop the ball at some point after the baby has arrived.

    I’m posting hoping someone can clarify the non-compliance with PoFa (how does this get to court?) and provide general support.
    Many thanks,
    Sarah

    p.s I notice other posters have been advised to edit their posts to make it clear they were not the driver. I wanted to include that information as it is part of my difficulty - what would I do in court? Sarah is not my real name & I have tried to be vague about other details...
    Last edited by SarahJeff; 20-09-2016 at 11:10 PM. Reason: driver vs keeper
Page 1
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 20th Sep 16, 11:07 PM
    • 4,342 Posts
    • 3,727 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #2
    • 20th Sep 16, 11:07 PM
    • #2
    • 20th Sep 16, 11:07 PM
    you could write to the BPA giving all details of the ticket and the PCS one , and ask them to contact millennium regarding the lack of POPLa code


    failure to allow you a appeal with a recognised ATA would look realy bad for millennium and ridicule gladstones
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • SarahJeff
    • By SarahJeff 21st Sep 16, 9:51 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    SarahJeff
    • #3
    • 21st Sep 16, 9:51 PM
    • #3
    • 21st Sep 16, 9:51 PM
    Many thanks pappa golf, I will do that as it can only strengthen my "case".

    I received a rather rude email back from Gladstones stating that their letter before claim was compliant with Practice Direction, as all it needs is a date, location and "reason for charge" which I am aware is nowhere near sufficient.

    Should I write to them again politely pointing out the particulars needed, or wait for a letter through the post?

    I'm also really confused as to how the "parking charge" went up from £100 on the windscreen to £150 when sent to the keeper with no explanation! Surely there is a rule against that?!

    Many thanks again,
    Sarah
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Sep 16, 11:26 PM
    • 38,275 Posts
    • 49,757 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 21st Sep 16, 11:26 PM
    • #4
    • 21st Sep 16, 11:26 PM
    Always reply, never wait and see with Gladstones or they WILL move to a court claim within a week.

    I'm also really confused as to how the "parking charge" went up from £100 on the windscreen to £150 when sent to the keeper with no explanation! Surely there is a rule against that?!
    You will see when you search the forum for 'Gladstones letter' that this is exactly the sort of thing people have challenged in their reply letters, you can plagiarise them.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 22nd Sep 16, 9:44 AM
    • 5,262 Posts
    • 3,803 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #5
    • 22nd Sep 16, 9:44 AM
    • #5
    • 22nd Sep 16, 9:44 AM
    The charge for £150 is not allowed. Complain to the SRA that they are attempting to obtain monies to which they have no entitlement and are thusly bringing their profession into disrepute.

    http://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/problems/report-solicitor.page

    It is my understanding that they are currently under investigation by the SRA for this and other matters and the more complaints there are against them, the more likely they are to be sanctioned.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • SarahJeff
    • By SarahJeff 24th Sep 16, 3:23 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    SarahJeff
    • #6
    • 24th Sep 16, 3:23 PM
    • #6
    • 24th Sep 16, 3:23 PM
    Thank you The Deep and Coupon Mad. I will complain to the SRA. In their email they also state that the keeper of a vehicle is assumed to be the driver unless proven otherwise - this is rather a twisting of the truth, isn't it, should it be mentioned to the SRA also?

    Coupon mad on one of the other threads I noticed someone (I think it was you, I have read so much!!) question whether someone had received a "notice to owner" or "notice to keeper". I received a "notice to owner" from PCS as the first letter through the post after a windscreen notice - is this of any consequence?

    My current reply email not sent to Gladstones yet just politely asks for the information I need to prepare for claim. It is still entirely unclear whether I am being pursued as driver or keeper, but if keeper it did not meet PoFa. Could I show up on the day in court and find they had photos of me as driver which they had not disclosed?

    Thank you for the advice.
    • Northlakes
    • By Northlakes 24th Sep 16, 4:40 PM
    • 736 Posts
    • 978 Thanks
    Northlakes
    • #7
    • 24th Sep 16, 4:40 PM
    • #7
    • 24th Sep 16, 4:40 PM
    Look up the various Parking Prankster blogs and it becomes clear that there is a feeding frenzy of claims from Gladstone's and BW legal using the Beavis judgement as a catch-all for every parking situation.
    They will quote Elliot V Loake at you which was a criminal case where forensic evidence was used to determine the driver.
    If you look at recent POPLA cases you see that this supposition of PPC's is totally false. Look up the Henry Greenslade quote.

    Any court will down very badly on any claim where ADR has not been offered (i.e. POPLA).
    So as PG has advised earlier the BPA need to get involved with this former member.
    This is from a court defence on another thread,

    9. The Supreme Court Judges in the Beavis case held that a CoP is effectively 'regulation' for the private parking industry, full compliance with which is both expected and binding upon any parking operator.

    With pictures of bad or non-existent signage these claims can be seen off.
    Last edited by Northlakes; 24-09-2016 at 5:02 PM.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 24th Sep 16, 4:41 PM
    • 35,440 Posts
    • 71,484 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 24th Sep 16, 4:41 PM
    • #8
    • 24th Sep 16, 4:41 PM
    To answer an earlier question, the keeper does not have to deny they were the driver. They can state that there is no requirement in law for them to give that information, and there is nothing in law that allows that assumption to be made.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Sep 16, 8:17 PM
    • 38,275 Posts
    • 49,757 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 24th Sep 16, 8:17 PM
    • #9
    • 24th Sep 16, 8:17 PM
    Coupon mad on one of the other threads I noticed someone (I think it was you, I have read so much!!) question whether someone had received a "notice to owner" or "notice to keeper". I received a "notice to owner" from PCS as the first letter through the post after a windscreen notice - is this of any consequence?
    Good spot - yes that has huge consequences.

    That is a non-POFA Notice. PCS use a 'NTO' (instead of their NTK) when they are posting it too late for keeper liability, usually. Definitely non-POFA wording so the keeper cannot be held liable for the charge, only a known driver.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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