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  • FIRST POST
    • al76fla
    • By al76fla 20th Sep 16, 11:31 AM
    • 5Posts
    • 2Thanks
    al76fla
    Lease Hire car driver identified Athena ANPR
    • #1
    • 20th Sep 16, 11:31 AM
    Lease Hire car driver identified Athena ANPR 20th Sep 16 at 11:31 AM
    HI There
    My wife has had a Civil Parking Charge Notice from Athena ANPR for overstaying her welcome in a lidl car park. I have read through the newbies thread and very useful it was too, however there are a few aspects of this particular situation that I'm not entirely clear on, any help from forum members would be greatly appreciated!

    Firstly, the PCN says that the allowed duration of stay was 1hr 30mins (generous by Lidl standards from what i can see!) my wife however, left the car there for 3hrs 4mins! So my first question: is it worth appealing given the extent to which she was outside the allowed stay?

    Secondly, the car is a lease hire, so the NTK has been sent to the hire company who have, according to the PCN, identified my wife as the driver. I read in the Newbie thread:

    "If the hire/lease co gets a postal PCN and names you as the driver/hirer, that is a good thing as it removes them from the loop entirely and then you can follow the above advice as appropriate to your case"

    So my second question is - which advice is appropriate to our case? The IPC letter template in the newbies thread (Athena are IPC) makes great pains not to identify the driver - given that she is already correctly identified, is this appropriate? The lease-hire agreement is in her name, but i sometimes drive the car too, so their information could theoretically be incorrect.

    Sorry if these are daft questions - i have read the newbie thread in full - but i'm not sure what to do, whether there's any point appealing and what the situation is given that they have correctly identified my wife as driving. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance.
Page 1
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 20th Sep 16, 11:49 AM
    • 416 Posts
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    Edna Basher
    • #2
    • 20th Sep 16, 11:49 AM
    • #2
    • 20th Sep 16, 11:49 AM
    Hi al

    Given that the lease company cannot be sure who was driving, it is only in a position to name and transfer liability to the hirer named on the lease agreement.

    Your wife should have received a Notice to Hirer from Athena, rather than a Notice to Driver. In the top left corner of the PCN does it say "Notice to Hirer" or "Notice to Driver"? Also, did Athena include a copy of your wife's hire documents and a copy of its original Notice to Keeper addressed to the lease company? As far as I'm aware, Athena is the only PPC that actually does this.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 20th Sep 16, 11:56 AM
    • 35,420 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #3
    • 20th Sep 16, 11:56 AM
    • #3
    • 20th Sep 16, 11:56 AM
    Your wife should send the IPC template as hirer, not admitting who was driving. The hire company cannot know who was driving at the time so can only name the hirer.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 20-09-2016 at 12:31 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • al76fla
    • By al76fla 20th Sep 16, 1:04 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    al76fla
    • #4
    • 20th Sep 16, 1:04 PM
    • #4
    • 20th Sep 16, 1:04 PM
    Hi Edna and thanks.

    The PCN Just says 'TO THE DRIVER' Followed by the car make and model and then my wife's name and address. They didn't send any additional paperwork, just the PCN. It also has the entry and exit photos and in the text of the letter says:

    'A Notice to Keeper has previously been served on the Registered Keeper of the vehicle containing full details of the charge. On the incident date according to the Registered Keeper you were the driver of the vehicle with the registration shown above and consequently this Parking Charge has been reissued to you.
    • al76fla
    • By al76fla 20th Sep 16, 1:06 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    al76fla
    • #5
    • 20th Sep 16, 1:06 PM
    • #5
    • 20th Sep 16, 1:06 PM
    Thanks Fruitcake

    So is that just the standard IPC letter as it appears in the Newbie thread - or is there a specific template for hirer - sorry if i've missed this! Thanks.
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 20th Sep 16, 3:16 PM
    • 416 Posts
    • 1,053 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    • #6
    • 20th Sep 16, 3:16 PM
    • #6
    • 20th Sep 16, 3:16 PM
    Someone has made a mistake – it could be the lease company (by stating that your wife was the driver rather than the hirer) or it could be Athena (by issuing a Notice to Driver rather than a Notice to Hirer).

    I suggest that your wife writes to Athena on the assumption that it was Athena's mistake - something along the lines of.......


    “Dear Sir,

    Parking Charge Notice [X XXX XXX XXX]: Vehicle Registration [AA11AAA]: Formal Dispute

    I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) dated [Date of PCN] issued to me by Athena ANPR Limited (“Athena”) in respect of an alleged breach of Parking Terms and Conditions at [Location of Incident] by the driver of the above-detailed vehicle on [Date of Incident].

    I confirm that this vehicle is leased to me by [Name of Lease Co.] and I am therefore its hirer for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”).

    In order to be able to rely upon POFA to claim unpaid parking charges from a vehicle's hirer, an operator must deliver a Notice to Keeper and subsequent Notice to Hirer in full compliance with the requirements of POFA. However, rather than being written as a Notice to Hirer, Athena’s PCN has been issued in the form of a Notice to Driver and consequently it does not comply with POFA. Athena has therefore forfeited its right to utilise the provisions of POFA to hold me liable for the charge as the vehicle’s hirer.

    In view of the above, within the timescales specified under the IPC Code of Practice, please provide me with written confirmation that Athena has cancelled this charge.

    Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response.


    Yours faithfully,

    [A Hirer]”


    This can be sent by e-mail to appeals@athena-parking.com

    The window for an operator to deliver a compliant Notice to Hirer lasts just 21 days beginning on the day after they receive the hirer’s details from the lease company. Therefore your wife will need to send her letter at the point at which it will be too late for Athena to reissue the PCN as a Notice to Hirer.
    Last edited by Edna Basher; 20-09-2016 at 3:19 PM. Reason: Formatting
    • peter_the_piper
    • By peter_the_piper 20th Sep 16, 4:27 PM
    • 23,609 Posts
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    peter_the_piper
    • #7
    • 20th Sep 16, 4:27 PM
    • #7
    • 20th Sep 16, 4:27 PM
    Further to above, it may be worth checking with the appropriate council to see if the figure of 1-1/2 hours was on the planning consent.
    Millies due back at Christmas.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th Sep 16, 5:32 PM
    • 10,260 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 20th Sep 16, 5:32 PM
    • #8
    • 20th Sep 16, 5:32 PM
    You can kill this off with an email to the Lidl CEO.

    Read this thread:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5522806

    Although Ronny has apparently now gone (you'll understand on reading the linked thread), still use that email address to get through to the top. You need to try every avenue open to you - this is likely to provide a better outcome potential than appealing to Athena/IAS.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • al76fla
    • By al76fla 20th Sep 16, 6:23 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    al76fla
    • #9
    • 20th Sep 16, 6:23 PM
    • #9
    • 20th Sep 16, 6:23 PM
    Thanks All - Will have a read of the link Umkomass and also send the letter you suggest Edna. Why does this all have to be so complicated! I can entirely see how people just give up and pay! So good that these forums exist with so many potential crooks around trying to frighten people into paying excessive fines.
    AL
    • al76fla
    • By al76fla 21st Sep 16, 6:14 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    al76fla
    21 days
    Hi Edna

    I plan to send the email you suggest, but if you are able, could you elaborate on

    'at the point at which it will be too late for Athena to reissue the PCN as a Notice to Hirer.'

    I don't really understand when this would be? If they have 21 days from getting her details, are we making a guess that the latest date they could have received those would be the day before the PCN date? and therefore, we need to send the email rebuttal approx 20 days from that date? Sorry if this is a daft question!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 21st Sep 16, 6:29 PM
    • 10,260 Posts
    • 15,120 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    They have 56 days from the parking incident to serve a compliant notice to keeper in order to pursue keeper liability. Failure to meet this deadline means the keeper has no liability - that firmly rests then with the driver.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Sep 16, 10:35 PM
    • 38,218 Posts
    • 49,694 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I don't really understand when this would be? If they have 21 days from getting her details, are we making a guess that the latest date they could have received those would be the day before the PCN date? and therefore, we need to send the email rebuttal approx 20 days from that date? Sorry if this is a daft question!
    Not a daft question - and yes, I would submit the appeal on day 19 after the PCN arrived in the hirer's name.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • bod1467
    • By bod1467 22nd Sep 16, 10:33 AM
    • 14,733 Posts
    • 13,379 Thanks
    bod1467
    Note the crucial part ... on day 19 after the PCN arrived in the hirer's name.

    Does this mean day 0 is the day the hirer received the PCN, or the date on the PCN that Athena sent it to the hirer?

    As the 21 day clock for appeals starts ticking on day 0, it's important to understand when day 0 actually is.
    Got a Parking Charge Notice (parking ticket - IT'S NOT A FINE!)? Go here for further info ...
    Main site > MoneySavingExpert.com Forums > Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking >
    ... and click on the NEWBIES sticky thread (4816822)
    Please do not PM me for help - I will not offer help via PM.
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