Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Yojimbo
    • By Yojimbo 18th Sep 16, 10:36 PM
    • 9Posts
    • 6Thanks
    Yojimbo
    VCS/ BW Legal PCN - Parked for Maximum Period
    • #1
    • 18th Sep 16, 10:36 PM
    VCS/ BW Legal PCN - Parked for Maximum Period 18th Sep 16 at 10:36 PM
    I am the keeper of vehicle, but not the driver at the time of incident detected by ANPR.

    On November 2015, the driver received a parking ticket for overstaying in a free car park. The maximum time you could park there was 1hrs and the driver went over by 41 mins. Not realising that there was any restrictions in place, being a Sunday (naive to think that... I know, but hey ho).

    After receiving a few letters, 4 in total, 2 from VCS, 1 from DRP and 1 from Zenith. All of these were ignored, following the advice on other forums (I realise now, I should've replied to them sooner). But now I've received a letter from BW legal, outlining that I must pay, £100 for the PCN, plus £54 for the clients legal cost, within 16 days.

    I've also gone over this date now, but before bowing to their bullying and scare mongering tactics. I think, that I need to make a stand against them.

    The original PCN was issued to me 16 days after the incident. These days could be calculated from the date of the incident to the issue date shown on the letter. Now am I correct in thinking that the PoFA 2012, states that the PCN should be sent to the keeper within 14 days, otherwise the PCN should be cancelled?

    This coupled with the fact that I wasn't the driver at the time, do you think that this makes for a solid defence. I'm aiming to email them as soon as possible.

    Any advice and support will be greatly appreciated!
    Last edited by Yojimbo; 18-09-2016 at 10:38 PM. Reason: adding extra info
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Sep 16, 3:35 AM
    • 10,996 Posts
    • 16,403 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 19th Sep 16, 3:35 AM
    • #2
    • 19th Sep 16, 3:35 AM
    There are dozens upon dozens of VCS/Excel/BWL threads running here and on PePiPoo where all the questions have been asked and answered. A search on both forums will provide you with a good understanding of where you are on the time continuum and how to deal with this. The better your understanding, the easier it will be for you to deal with, so definitely don't restrict yourself to this thread alone - things are pretty fluid on the BWL front and are likely to change quickly - so keep abreast.

    All of these were ignored, following the advice on other forums
    Sorry, but no private parking forum has provided that advice for almost 4 years as a result of the introduction of PoFA in October 2012. You haven't been reading MumsNet for advice on this, I hope?

    The original PCN was issued to me 16 days after the incident. These days could be calculated from the date of the incident to the issue date shown on the letter. Now am I correct in thinking that the PoFA 2012, states that the PCN should be sent to the keeper within 14 days, otherwise the PCN should be cancelled?
    Correct, to a point, depending on whether they are legally pursuing the vehicle's keeper. PPCs (especially IPC members) are deliberately vague on this, relying on the fact that most keepers won't have the foggiest idea what PoFA is, or how they might be protected under its legislation.

    It isn't a reason for the PCN to be cancelled, but legally it can take the keeper out of the loop, but you'll need to do your homework on this because you may have to explain the intricacies of PoFA to a judge to extricate yourself from this. Simply saying 'I wasn't the driver - period' won't prevent you having to deal with this in a thorough manner, so it's plenty of reading in the first place to absorb where things are and where you are in the process - always come back for advice as your case progresses. But everything you need to know is already out there.

    The time for 'ignoring' this is long gone, you must roll your sleeves up now.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Carthesis
    • By Carthesis 19th Sep 16, 9:34 AM
    • 455 Posts
    • 797 Thanks
    Carthesis
    • #3
    • 19th Sep 16, 9:34 AM
    • #3
    • 19th Sep 16, 9:34 AM
    The rules on PoFA2012 NtKs are summarised in this post:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=71325699&postcount=3

    They seem to be right on the cusp of when then can send the notice out, but it depends on what legal vaguities they're using to make out that they've assumed the Keeper to be the Driver.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Sep 16, 9:57 PM
    • 40,488 Posts
    • 52,385 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 19th Sep 16, 9:57 PM
    • #4
    • 19th Sep 16, 9:57 PM
    The original PCN was issued to me 16 days after the incident. These days could be calculated from the date of the incident to the issue date shown on the letter. Now am I correct in thinking that the PoFA 2012, states that the PCN should be sent to the keeper within 14 days, otherwise the PCN should be cancelled?
    No, that's irrelevant because VCS do not attempt to use the POFA. And they don't have to...but it then creates the problem for them that they cannot hold the keeper liable.

    There is no need for you to pore over the POFA because it's not relevant to this PCN. It is a 'driver liability only' charge.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Yojimbo
    • By Yojimbo 20th Sep 16, 9:27 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Yojimbo
    • #5
    • 20th Sep 16, 9:27 PM
    • #5
    • 20th Sep 16, 9:27 PM
    They seem to be right on the cusp of when then can send the notice out, but it depends on what legal vaguities they're using to make out that they've assumed the Keeper to be the Driver.
    I've looked back at the BW Legal letter, and I see what you mean about them being vague.

    The so call 'contravention' was captured via ANPR. According to the Parking Cowboys blog on keeper-liability, if it is a ANPR, the NtK has to be sent within 14 days after the vehicle was parked. On the first PCN letter received, it clearly shows that it was sent after 14 days.

    Below is the letter template, I plan to send to BWL. What do you think, should I include the bit about how the NtK has to be sent within 14 days?

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    RE: Your reference xxxxxx

    Regarding the above reference number quoted to me in your letter dated 15 November 2015; I maintain that no responsibility for the “offence” alleged, and I deny any debt at all, I have no intention of paying the money demanded by your client and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.

    As the keeper I am under no obligation to name the driver and you have no legal basis to make an assumption that as the registered keeper, I was the driver.

    Your client has no right to pursue me and the legal action you threaten cannot succeed.

    The matter is therefore closed

    Yours Faithfully
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Sep 16, 10:35 PM
    • 40,488 Posts
    • 52,385 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 20th Sep 16, 10:35 PM
    • #6
    • 20th Sep 16, 10:35 PM
    The so call 'contravention' was captured via ANPR. According to the Parking Cowboys blog on keeper-liability, if it is a ANPR, the NtK has to be sent within 14 days after the vehicle was parked. On the first PCN letter received, it clearly shows that it was sent after 14 days.
    Nope that is not relevant to this sort of (non-POFA) PCN, as I explained above. This is NOT a 'keeper liability' PCN, it's a driver-only one which is good for an appellant or defendant who remains as 'the KEEPER' of course.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Yojimbo
    • By Yojimbo 9th Oct 16, 11:30 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Yojimbo
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 16, 11:30 AM
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 16, 11:30 AM
    So BW legal replied back to my email above, stating that they are aware that I was not the driver, but I was not forth coming with the drivers detail, so VCS has assumed that I was the driver, and they've quoted Elliot v Loake (1982). I understand that this case was more to do with the RK lieing about driver whilst he was involved in a car accident.

    I can see that they are resorting to scare mongering tactics in order for me to pay. So I've found a
    template letter below, which I'm planning to email over to them. If you can advise, if this letter is okay to use?

    Thank you for your letter dated 6 October 2016.

    As per my last email, I deny any debt to VCS, who you have referred to on your latest letter.

    In your letter a reference is made to Elliot v Loake [1982]. This was a criminal law case where there was irrefutable evidence of the driver and there were no issues with liability. I’m not sure I understand its relevance to this case.

    The claimant has to prove their case and you have not shown any evidence that I was the driver. This is because you cannot, because I was not the driver.

    I would also point out that the £54 legal costs are not recoverable under CPR27.14, nor under the POFA.

    If you continue to pursue me then I will ask the court to award additional costs due to your client's unreasonable behaviour, pursuant to CPR 27.14(2)(g).
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Oct 16, 11:45 AM
    • 10,996 Posts
    • 16,403 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 9th Oct 16, 11:45 AM
    • #8
    • 9th Oct 16, 11:45 AM
    So BW legal replied back to my email above, stating that they are aware that I was not the driver, but I was not forth coming with the drivers detail, so VCS has assumed that I was the driver, and they've quoted Elliot v Loake (1982). I understand that this case was more to do with the RK lieing about driver whilst he was involved in a car accident.
    Did they actually put this in writing? They accept that you were not the driver, yet are pursuing you as the driver using E-v-L? If they were pursuing you under PoFA, that might make sense if they had their NtK in full compliance (which they won't) but E-v-L - nope!

    Can you copy exactly what they say in this regard, because if it is as you say, this needs a very strong complaint to the SRA and DVLA.

    In terms of the letter you are proposing to send to BWL, it looks ok as far as keeping the ping-pong going with them. It shows you as not being unreasonable and are maintaining a dialogue in order to settle the case (in your favour and paying nowt!).
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Yojimbo
    • By Yojimbo 9th Oct 16, 12:02 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Yojimbo
    • #9
    • 9th Oct 16, 12:02 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Oct 16, 12:02 PM
    Yes they sent the letter below to me;

    We write in reference to the above matter and your communication.

    VCS's claim is for the sum of £154.00 and is in relation to monies (and legal expenses) owed pursuant to the PCN.

    We note from your correspondence that you state you were not the driver at the time of the PCN. As details of the driver have not been forthcoming to suggest otherwise, our client, in absence of the driver's details, reasonably presumes you were the driver and we refer you to the case of Elliott v Loake [1982].

    We note your position in that you are not prepared to make any payment of the outstanding debt. We shall now seek VCS's instructions with regards to issuing Court Proceeding to recover the outstanding balance.

    Please note that as part of the legal process we are required to issue you with a LBBCA letter, which you shall receive shortly.

    Notwithstanding the above our client is still prepared to accept repayment of the debt without further costs being incurred we would be grateful if you would contact us within 7 days from the date of this letter to pay the balance.

    In the event you are unable to pay the balance in full, please contact our helpful team, on the details above, to discuss our suitable payment options.

    We look forward to hearing with you within 7 days.

    Your faithfully,
    bw legal
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 9th Oct 16, 12:23 PM
    • 4,129 Posts
    • 4,742 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Yes they sent the letter below to me;

    We write in reference to the above matter and your communication.

    VCS's claim is for the sum of £154.00 and is in relation to monies (and legal expenses) owed pursuant to the PCN.

    We note from your correspondence that you state you were not the driver at the time of the PCN. As details of the driver have not been forthcoming to suggest otherwise, our client, in absence of the driver's details, reasonably presumes you were the driver and we refer you to the case of Elliott v Loake [1982].

    We note your position in that you are not prepared to make any payment of the outstanding debt. We shall now seek VCS's instructions with regards to issuing Court Proceeding to recover the outstanding balance.

    Please note that as part of the legal process we are required to issue you with a LBBCA letter, which you shall receive shortly.

    Notwithstanding the above our client is still prepared to accept repayment of the debt without further costs being incurred we would be grateful if you would contact us within 7 days from the date of this letter to pay the balance.

    In the event you are unable to pay the balance in full, please contact our helpful team, on the details above, to discuss our suitable payment options.

    We look forward to hearing with you within 7 days.

    Your faithfully,
    bw legal
    Originally posted by Yojimbo
    BWLegal are certainly jokers, it's like watching a "punch and judy" show aimed at kids

    There is no comparison to the Elliott v Loake case unless they are accusing you of being a criminal.

    This is menacing, they are trying to extort money from you.

    As many before you, you must complain to the SRA about this Punch and Judy show run by BWLegal.

    You can reply to BWLegal stating that regarding their recent reply, you have now issued a complaint to the SRA and until a suitable answer is received from the SRA ... THIS MATTER IS NOW ON HOLD
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Oct 16, 12:24 PM
    • 10,996 Posts
    • 16,403 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    They don't state anywhere that they are aware you were not the driver.

    You must read the letters very carefully, otherwise if we'd have taken your statement << stating that they are aware that I was not the driver >> we could easily have sent you off on a wild goose chase with (inaccurate) complaints to the SRA and DVLA. Probably meaning any further legitimate complaint you might make to them would likely carry little weight.

    You don't need egg on your face in trying to deal with this.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 9th Oct 16, 1:04 PM
    • 5,561 Posts
    • 4,272 Thanks
    The Deep
    Elliot v Loake - criminal case - Mags Court - hit and run - paint specs on motorcycle found on other vehicle, guilty, send him down.

    They don't state anywhere that they are aware you were not the driver.

    Yes they do.

    If you have not already done so, copy this letter to Duncan Allen, Head of Compliance SRA

    http://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/problems/report-solicitor.page

    as this is a blatant attempt to obtain from you monies to which their client has no entitlement by attempting to use your ignorance of the law to bully you, and almost certainly against the Code of Practice.
    Last edited by The Deep; 09-10-2016 at 1:07 PM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Oct 16, 1:31 PM
    • 10,996 Posts
    • 16,403 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    They don't state anywhere that they are aware you were not the driver.

    Yes they do.
    Without taking this into Panto mode - Oh no they don't.

    This is what they say:
    We note from your correspondence that you state you were not the driver at the time of the PCN.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Oct 16, 3:15 PM
    • 40,488 Posts
    • 52,385 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Just reply in the way you plan and also attach a letter headed up 'statement of truth' signed by you (dated and with the VRN, date of event, location, etc) on it. In the covering letter, tell BW Legal that you are attaching your statement of truth and that their client is unable to assume you were driving, because it was a fact that you were not and this will be confirmed at any hearing.

    Ask them if they are suggesting you are lying? Tell them that their reliance upon the criminal case of 'Elliott v Loake' (where the person was driving, and there was forensic evidence) is as unreasonable as BW Legal's misleading letters generally and as unreasonable as their lie that the randomly bolted-on extra £54 was 'on the signs/part of the contract' in the first instance, because it was not.

    Report them to the SRA and CSA if you have not already, using the examples in LoveNorfolk's BW Legal thead (search for it).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Yojimbo
    • By Yojimbo 11th Oct 16, 9:47 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Yojimbo
    Thanks guys, all of your points are noted. Should I make BW Legal aware that I'll also be reporting them over to tne SRA?

    I'll be sending this reply over to them via email,

    Thank you for your letter dated 6 October 2016.

    As per my last email, I deny any debt to VCS, who you have referred to on your latest letter.

    In your letter a reference is made to Elliot v Loake [1982]. This was a criminal law case where there was irrefutable evidence of the driver and there were no issues with liability. I’m not sure I understand its relevance to this case. Are you insinuating that I am lying?

    Your client has to prove their case and you have not shown any evidence that I was the driver. This is probably because you are unable to show any evidence as I was not the driver.

    Just to make you aware I've attached a statement of truth to this email. Your client is unable to make the assumption that I was driving. This will be confirmed at any hearing.

    I would also point out that the £54 legal costs are not recoverable under CPR27.14, nor under the POFA.

    If you continue to pursue me then I will ask the court to award additional costs, due to your client's unreasonable behaviour, pursuant to CPR 27.14(2)(g).

    Yours Faithfully,
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Oct 16, 9:51 PM
    • 40,488 Posts
    • 52,385 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    That looks great and no reason to tip them off about yet another SRA complaint - just do it, in the style shown in pappa golf's post in LoveNorfolk's BW Legal thread. Go for it, fight back about this misleading aggressive robo-claim bulk rubbish.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 11th Oct 16, 10:02 PM
    • 4,129 Posts
    • 4,742 Thanks
    beamerguy
    It's only fair to let BWLegal know what you are doing.

    They are a bit slow on the pickup ?
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Yojimbo
    • By Yojimbo 11th Oct 16, 10:08 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Yojimbo
    Sure Thing, I'll email this letter over to BW legal and no doubt they'll spout some other half baked rubbish
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 12th Oct 16, 12:50 AM
    • 4,129 Posts
    • 4,742 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Sure Thing, I'll email this letter over to BW legal and no doubt they'll spout some other half baked rubbish
    Originally posted by Yojimbo
    Yes they will, they are desperate
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Yojimbo
    • By Yojimbo 12th Oct 16, 10:26 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Yojimbo
    Just reply in the way you plan and also attach a letter headed up 'statement of truth' signed by you (dated and with the VRN, date of event, location, etc) on it. In the covering letter, tell BW Legal that you are attaching your statement of truth and that their client is unable to assume you were driving, because it was a fact that you were not and this will be confirmed at any hearing.
    Does this 'SoT' template provide enough information below?

    Date: 12/10/2016
    VRN: VC#######
    Date of event: 15/11/20##
    Location: St Marys Gates Retail Park ANPR VCS
    Contravention: Parked for longer than the maximum period permitted

    I was not the driver at the time of the specified contravention

    I believe that the facts and matters contained in this statement to be true

    Signed;
    __xxxxxxxxxx__
    Last edited by Yojimbo; 12-10-2016 at 10:50 PM. Reason: updated post
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,124Posts Today

7,608Users online

Martin's Twitter