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    • pushing40
    • By pushing40 18th Sep 16, 6:40 PM
    • 22Posts
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    pushing40
    I think we've reached the end of the road. What now?
    • #1
    • 18th Sep 16, 6:40 PM
    I think we've reached the end of the road. What now? 18th Sep 16 at 6:40 PM
    Hubby and I had a blazing argument this morning and he pretty much told me that he didn't like me, didn't love me and he didn't like his life. We have three children aged under 7. I have never experienced divorce, nobody in my family has been divorced and none of my close friends have either. I really don't know what to do or who to speak to for advice.

    Hubby works full time, I work part time but do everything for the kids: School run, meals, take to swimming lessons, wash and iron clothes, etc, etc.

    We have a mortgage but a fair amount of equity. We also have savings and hubby has investments (totalling a lot of money).

    What am I entitled to, and what should I do?
    Last edited by pushing40; 20-09-2016 at 12:59 PM. Reason: typo
Page 5
    • LannieDuck
    • By LannieDuck 20th Sep 16, 3:37 PM
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    LannieDuck
    I see now that what I thought were subtle tongue in cheek requests were anything but subtle. However, my point all along is that surely while we're both in the house, we both have a responsibility to raise the kids and muck in. I work AND do chores and raise the kids. He works longer hours but some of you are implying that working full-time means he gets to do nothing when not at work?! Really? Are we in the 1930s?
    Originally posted by pushing40
    OH and I take the approach that we both work the same hours (where 'work' includes commuting, housework and childcare as well as paid work).

    So if you've been busy with your part-time job + childcare + housework from the time your OH leaves the house in the morning to the time he comes home (possibly allowing him a 30 min respite period if it's a stressful commute!), then you've both effectively worked the same hours. Any chores (housework/childcare) from that point on in the evening are shared.

    And if you've 'worked' the same hours during the week, all chores at weekends should be shared.
    Mortgage when started: £330,995

    “Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.”
    Arthur C. Clarke
    • ska lover
    • By ska lover 20th Sep 16, 3:53 PM
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    ska lover
    The OP has already said that they don't talk about things like this so trying to discuss what is wrong is probably going to end in another argument. True, but taking themselves out of the usual environment is going to ease the stress - and hopefully lead to more of an honest emotional conversation. The only possible way out of any argument is communication really, nothing is going to change if they don't talk and try. It is going to take effort on both sides, to try and see insight into how the other is feeling and break through any initial accusatory and blame feelings to get to the core of the matter. Getting away from things takes you away from possible interruptions, kids calling etc

    He has already told her what the main problem is which is her "nagging". That is a mans 'go to' answer when he doesn't like what is being said, it doesn't actually mean anything. Anyone with insight will see that any nagging is a symptom of the problem SHE is facing, not the problem itself. Women verbalize problems, men do not tend to be so good at that. Men rationalize this as nagging. I dislike this term. It is s*xist as you never hear a man be accused of nagging.

    The OP needs to decide if she can do anything about this in order to save her marriage. She needs to do something like get a cleaner, do less ironing, do only essential housework etc, so that she does not feel resentful when he is sitting around doing nothing.The issue is not just the housework, there is the fact that they are both burnt out. The husband appears to be on the brink of a breakdown, and the wife not altogether too far behind - they are both suffering, but they have lost each other (emotionally speaking), whilst struggling with life in general, work kids etc

    Of course, the ideal would be that he changes and decides that he likes helping around the house instead of watching rugby, but I can't see that happening.
    Maybe when they both discuss their issues, and they both realize how stressed each other is, maybe they can BOTH support each other in the areas that each is struggling with.


    Everyone is allowed some down time, it is not selfish to want to watch a rugby game, if you work all week, to have two hours to yourself, and equally if the lady of the house wanted the same for herself after working and looking after kids and housework all week, it would be advisable to do so, as it is healthy to want to have some time for yourself, not selfish at all







    Originally posted by SuzieSue
    The way things are at the minute, no one is getting any fulfillment, no one is getting what they want.


    Ideally something like, the wife does the main chores during the week, however If it were me I would expect my hubby to help with bedtime or clearing up after the evening meal so we could be both 'done' at the same time. I would not expect him to be sitting watching tele whilst I was doing kids bedtime and clearing up the kitchen - not a chance

    However weekends do need to be more balanced for everyones sanity, Saturday it is her lie in, Sunday it is his. Simlilar for down time but equal for both

    Last edited by ska lover; 20-09-2016 at 4:13 PM.
    Blah blah blah.
    • hazyjo
    • By hazyjo 20th Sep 16, 4:13 PM
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    hazyjo
    A tip I once read... your entire house doesn't have to be perfect, just the rooms visitors are likely to see if they turn up


    As for the 1930s comment, well, I'm a she and he's a he so we do it in reverse! If we had kids, I would probably pull my weight more at home as well as working, but it is just us.


    I work from 9-6 with an hour's commute each way. I get lunch off and quiet periods. tbh, it's the commuting that's far harder than being at work - and I'm about to extend mine! Arghhh! My 10 hours do mean that he does the lot. If that makes me a 1930s bloke (haha) so be it. It's not about sharing, it's about equalling. The weird thing is we're naturally defensive about doing it as it's classed as 'women's work' which is probably partly what niggles us about doing it. My OH doesn't really have that niggle though so doesn't mind doing it.


    The answer is definitely to have allocated jobs. As suggested above, work out what hours you do each then split the rest. My ex used to do the hovering, I cleaned. I usually did clothes/washing/bathroom, he did dishwasher and cooking. It sort of levelled itself out really - he worked far shorter hours than me (teacher) and had the school hols.


    Maybe get him to change/make the beds (I think that's just about all my dad used to do) and give him a shopping list to go shopping with, or you can find something that suits you both.


    Agree with the ironing comment above - not everything needs ironing.


    Often the problem is that people don't start as they mean to go on. It reaches a point where they're fed up of doing something and tend to moan or nag - whereas the oblivious other half was unaware anything was wrong! Not a dig - and not necessarily your situation - but it happens a lot. Men do often need things spelling out that need doing!


    Can't remember if you've replied as to whether you could pay someone to do the ironing or cleaning.


    If all else fails, do a 'Shirley Valentine' and leave him a list of jobs that need doing, kids' stuff that needs sorting, and appointments that need keeping - and jet off somewhere alone for a week.


    Jx
    2016 wins: ESPA gift set; jumper; lip balm x 2; kitchen scales; perfume; shoes; theatre tickets; Champagne; books; After Eights; Diet Coke; Molton Brown duo; fish slice; travel set
    • Happier Me
    • By Happier Me 20th Sep 16, 8:12 PM
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    Happier Me
    Hi OP

    I suggest you give it a couple of days and then calmly inform your husband you need to talk about your relationship so you can both decide whether you have a future or not as a couple. If he is open to the idea set a day and time to do this (when there will be minimal interruptions). If he isn't I suggest you tell him he has until XX/XX/XX date to agree to talk and if he hasn't agreed by this point you will be consulting a solicitor regarding a divorce. But also tell him how you feel...that you still love him, that you want to make this work but he needs to meet you half way (assuing you genuinely feel this way)

    The one other thing I would say is: don't turn this into a competition! It's not about how much he does and how much you do at this point! Many of us parents have been there, got that T-Shirt and it gets ugly. Given the state of things at the moment you may as well skip straight to a divorce if this is going to be your approach.

    When you meet...listen!

    Focus on him...try to get to the bottom of why he is acting the way he is and what he feels needs to change! You may not like what you hear but spend some time (days!) mulling over what he has had to say before you respond.

    This isn't about ignoring your needs but understanding his.
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    • pushing40
    • By pushing40 20th Sep 16, 8:36 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    pushing40
    Thank you to the last few posters. You've made lots of sense, given great advice and given me a lot of food for thought. Thanks to everyone.
    • piglet74
    • By piglet74 20th Sep 16, 11:45 PM
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    piglet74
    Have you thought how you might find out if he is cheating or not, will you look for evidence, ask him etc?

    If you do, just be prepared for what you might find.

    I sometimes feel like I am the only person who doesn't have an ironing basket, or an ironing day.

    I fold towels, sheets, etc as they come in off the line, or out of the dryer,
    I hang up jeans or trousers, etc right away
    And good clothes, and shirts, clothes for wearing out etc, I dry on the hangers,then hang up, and iron as and when required,
    • Jamiesmum
    • By Jamiesmum 21st Sep 16, 7:47 AM
    • 241 Posts
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    Jamiesmum
    Buy a dishwasher.
    Skip the hoovering/mopping over the weekend.
    How much washing do you accumulate? Can you just dedicate one day a week too it? No harm in kids wearing pyjamas a few nights in a row, if the uniform is clean leave it etc.
    Get the kids to tidy their own rooms, do chores earn treats. 6 yr old could probably load the dishwasher, 4 year old will be fine with polish and a rag.

    Enjoy the weekends with your kids, go out for the day - if he doesn't want to come then leave him at home. I often find my days out with my lad are less stressful and more enjoyable than when we are at home. Less tidying up to do too!

    You must get down time in the evenings? You don't need to be all go until late at night.

    Leave the housework on a weekend and spend time together as a family.
    • hazyjo
    • By hazyjo 21st Sep 16, 9:53 AM
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    hazyjo
    I fold towels, sheets, etc as they come in off the line, or out of the dryer,
    I hang up jeans or trousers, etc right away
    And good clothes, and shirts, clothes for wearing out etc, I dry on the hangers,then hang up, and iron as and when required,
    Originally posted by piglet74
    I used to do exactly that. Everything was hung straight away. It was far quicker to just iron something as I needed it. It did mean the ironing board stayed up most of the time, but it was down when I didn't want anyone else seeing it. Maybe just iron the kids' school stuff and hang the rest. If you can't afford or don't want an ironing lady and if your OH wears shirts daily, maybe consider using the local dry cleaners - 5 shirts washed and ironed for a fiver or whatever they offer.


    My OH tends to save it all up and has a day of ironing in front of the telly with a couple of films. I think he quite enjoys 'ironing day'!


    Jx
    2016 wins: ESPA gift set; jumper; lip balm x 2; kitchen scales; perfume; shoes; theatre tickets; Champagne; books; After Eights; Diet Coke; Molton Brown duo; fish slice; travel set
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 21st Sep 16, 10:00 AM
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    Doozergirl
    I suggested counselling - he said it was pointless as nobody else in his life makes him feel like I do (apparently I nag too much). In my defence, with three children, a part-time job to hold down, and all the housekeeping I have to do, it's not surprising I nag when I get little help and he gets to lie in bed every weekend while I run around like a headless chicken. He has a very volatile temper and has isolated lots of people in his life (he no longer speaks to either of his parents or brothers, has fallen out with various friends over the years and moans constantly about colleagues at work).
    Originally posted by pushing40
    Goodness, I was going to bang a drum for relationship counselling but he sounds really unhappy. If you look for the lowest common denominator, then it's himself he's unhappy with and he's looking to control outside, which you never can when the answer is inside. Comparing to others is also a route straight to self-hatred as well.

    You can go to relationship counselling yourself and I really recommend it, regardless of the end result of your relationship. My husband would resist coming with me so I went alone and it did help.

    We expect ourselves to have the answers to everything, including a happy marriage, but if anything else needed fixing we'd find a professional. Please go. We all owe it to ourselves and our children to make a proper attempt and your story isn't much different from all the other marriages that end in divorce, or the ones that end up seeking a better kind of help and fixing it.

    (Not to talk about myself but if you want an ending, he went on a self-development week long course alone after I read him the riot act and realised that he should come along. We're stronger than we've ever been. )
    Last edited by Doozergirl; 21-09-2016 at 10:12 AM.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • Primrose
    • By Primrose 21st Sep 16, 10:28 AM
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    Primrose
    I think Doozergirl has some words of wisdom. It sounds as if your husband, despite being stressed and unhappy , has a number of unfortunate personality problems which seem to have dogged him most of his life in terms of building good relationships with the people around him, including his family. Such people often sadly tend to blame everybody else as the cause of their unhappiness , rather than realising that working on their own personal awareness and self development would reduce a lot of their problems.

    hHe may not be prepared to accept this but this should not prevent you asking for some counselling support if you think it would help you cope with whatever path lies ahead of you. Frankly it sounds as if your husband's future happiness is probably doomed to faiilure whatever path he takes because of his anger and negativity. If this sadly proves to be the case, don't let him pull you down with him. You may have to recognise that he just doesn't have what it takes to be a good long term mature grown up husband and father.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 21st Sep 16, 11:06 AM
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    FBaby
    I'm wondering if the issue is resentment with the Wednesday. You sty you work hard that day but also that you only have the youngest one. The big difference is that you have more control and flexibility over your day. If you have a bad night sleep you can decide that that day you won't do the big chores and rest. It means you can catch up when little one nap.

    I went from working FT to hedging Wednesdays off for a year when my youngest was 18 months old and took him out of nursery on that day. The difference was huge. I could just or on a pair of jeans and sweatshirt to drop eldest to school and it meant not rushing as much as could leave 1 hour later. It meant I could then either be very efficient with time or not. It meant quality time with my boy and sometimes meeting up with friends and chatting whilst kids play and then having an hour or so for myself when he napped. That day was so much more rewarding than the others at work.

    I think the issue is that yoy are both knackered and desperate for new time. He takes it and probably feels guilty but feel he has no choice for his sanity then builds anger when your nagging means he can't ignore the guilt. You build a list in your mind off all the times he has for himself and act like a police officer giving out a penalty notice each time he breaks a rule.

    Your mutual resentment is such that you can't accept there is no miracle outcome but small compromises reached through communication. Such like you do less housework on Wednesday and try to make the best of the day to enjoy yourself and he gets a whole morning or afternoon over the weekend but he gets up with the kids one morning Saturday or Sunday.

    What is sad is that things will get easier and if you could manage to go through it you might come or of it with an even stronger marriage.
    • LannieDuck
    • By LannieDuck 21st Sep 16, 5:00 PM
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    LannieDuck
    I'm wondering if the issue is resentment with the Wednesday. You sty you work hard that day but also that you only have the youngest one. The big difference is that you have more control and flexibility over your day. If you have a bad night sleep you can decide that that day you won't do the big chores and rest. It means you can catch up when little one nap.

    I went from working FT to hedging Wednesdays off for a year when my youngest was 18 months old and took him out of nursery on that day. The difference was huge. I could just or on a pair of jeans and sweatshirt to drop eldest to school and it meant not rushing as much as could leave 1 hour later. It meant I could then either be very efficient with time or not. It meant quality time with my boy and sometimes meeting up with friends and chatting whilst kids play and then having an hour or so for myself when he napped. That day was so much more rewarding than the others at work.

    I think the issue is that yoy are both knackered and desperate for new time. He takes it and probably feels guilty but feel he has no choice for his sanity then builds anger when your nagging means he can't ignore the guilt. You build a list in your mind off all the times he has for himself and act like a police officer giving out a penalty notice each time he breaks a rule.

    Your mutual resentment is such that you can't accept there is no miracle outcome but small compromises reached through communication. Such like you do less housework on Wednesday and try to make the best of the day to enjoy yourself and he gets a whole morning or afternoon over the weekend but he gets up with the kids one morning Saturday or Sunday.

    What is sad is that things will get easier and if you could manage to go through it you might come or of it with an even stronger marriage.
    Originally posted by FBaby
    I have Weds off currently with my 2 yo and have completely the opposite experience. It's far more stressful than being at work.

    There's no way I can get any proper jobs done because the 2 yo wants attention and to be played with all the time. She wants to 'help' me do jobs (which is very cute, but not very effective!), or she wants to press the keys on the keyboard, or shuffle through whatever papers I'm reading.

    I do get an hour or so when she naps - i guess that's equivalent to a lunch break at work, but it's unpredictable. And she's just started dropping her nap. I spent my 'lunch break' today negotiating with her to stay in her room and try to sleep, then changing a dirty nappy, then taking up an iPad for her to watch TV on so I at least had time to finish my food.

    And re: 'if you have a bad night's sleep'... I can't remember the last time I had an uninterrupted night. One or other of the children always wakes me up at least once. Last week there was a memorable night when I was woken up 4 times

    This may be something that's very child-dependent. At this age my eldest was happy to play by herself, and could sit and colour for hours quite happily. But my youngest is very clingy. Lovely and adorable... but clingy
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    “Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.”
    Arthur C. Clarke
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 21st Sep 16, 6:19 PM
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    FBaby
    I suppose it depends on the job then because looking after my boy, despite him being very demanding for attention, was so much easier than dealing with my job and the demands of my boss and colleagues!

    For one I could tell him off if he really annoyed me which couldn't do at work!

    Ultimately, with a child, you can choose to stay at home in your PJs, or go and meet with friends with your child, which even if he needs attention is still nice to do. At work, you are stuck with your duties and responsibilities no matter how you feel that day.7

    But yes, everyone experience will be different depending on the job and child.
    • enthusiasticsaver
    • By enthusiasticsaver 21st Sep 16, 6:49 PM
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    enthusiasticsaver
    I worked part time when my two daughters were small and apart from when they were at university have always worked part time although my OH does work erratic hours and is at home sometimes anyway. He never offered to help out at home with the kids when they were younger at the weekend (until I got a Saturday job and he had to) but I would say "Can you do tea while I bath the kids?" or "Can you run the hoover round while I nip up the shops?". That sounds more like a partnership. If your OH insists on sitting around watching TV then I would ask outright if he can do something to help afterwards. It does not have to be done in a nagging way, just asking him to help out.

    It does sound as if work may be part of the issue so having a chat one evening after the kids have gone to bed and asking him what he wants to happen - either separation or maybe adjusting his work/life balance. I personally would be concerned about him being depressed and it does sound as if he has some sort of personality disorder if he finds it difficult to get on with other people. I think you need to also recognise that maybe being passive aggressive with him and shouting at the kids is stressful for them, for you and him. I would take a deep breath and tell him you are going for 5 minutes on your own. Go out into the garden, have a bath or something when things get too much for you. Maybe some counselling to help you deal with the stress of having children and no downtime. Go on a Wednesday when your other kids are at school and maybe ask your parents to have your toddler? I look after my 1 year old granddaughter one day a week and looking after kids is hard. Three young ones are a lot so you work just as hard as him even though your part time hours are shorter. I also do think you need to recognise though that a 40 hour job with probably a lot of stress is a lot for your OH to cope with too so don't make it a competition as to who has it harder as that way no one wins, least of all the kids.

    Re money, does he keep you short of money? You say you have savings, are they joint? Can you ask him if you could perhaps budget for a small holiday for all of you. You are a long time dead and even though saving for retirement is admirable you do need to live a little along the way too.

    If, in spite of your efforts he is not interested and thinks separation is the only way then I would see a solicitor. Make a note of assets and talk to him about how he sees you all going forward. Will you stay in the house or will you sell up? Can he move into a rented flat until the children are older and then you sell? Whatever you decide I hope you come out happier in the end as you all sound miserable. I feel for you.
    Save £12k in 2016 #46 £13600/£12,000
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    • LannieDuck
    • By LannieDuck 21st Sep 16, 7:04 PM
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    LannieDuck
    I suppose it depends on the job then because looking after my boy, despite him being very demanding for attention, was so much easier than dealing with my job and the demands of my boss and colleagues!

    For one I could tell him off if he really annoyed me which couldn't do at work!

    Ultimately, with a child, you can choose to stay at home in your PJs, or go and meet with friends with your child, which even if he needs attention is still nice to do. At work, you are stuck with your duties and responsibilities no matter how you feel that day.7

    But yes, everyone experience will be different depending on the job and child.
    Originally posted by FBaby
    No meeting up with friends during the day for me - they're all at work!

    I think I find work easier than childcare because I can concentrate on a task and make real progress. I can work at my own pace and take tea-breaks as and when I need to. Whereas with a child, the work is unending, boring, repetitive and thankless. I can easily cycle the dishwasher twice in a day, tidy up three times, clean the carpet and mop up wee (we're potty training) and still have toys strewn all over the floor when my OH gets home.

    That's not to say I don't enjoy interacting with my LO. The actual playing parts of the day are rewarding and fun. But there's a lot of unseen work that goes along with it.
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    “Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.”
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    • barbiedoll
    • By barbiedoll 21st Sep 16, 8:46 PM
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    barbiedoll
    All these posts about his work, his possible depression, his stress etc etc, are missing the point for me. He isn't on here asking about divorce but OP is.

    OP...does the thought of him coming home from work fill you with dread?

    He has friends at the pub, do you have any friends (not at work) who you see during the week or at weekends? Do you have any friends as a couple?

    He's saving for "retirement"...are you short of cash for everyday stuff?

    Are his mood swings a regular thing? Has he made you scared before during an argument?

    He wanted the kids, and you say that he would fight for custody...What makes you say that, does he use the kids as a weapon?

    Do you ever have family days out to the park or to visit friends/relatives? Does he make a fuss if you visit your parents?

    While everyone is concerned about his "stressful" job (what does he do, run a multi-national conglomerate? Everyone gets stressed at work) what about your stress levels? You say that you shout at the kids...you realise that this is wrong but what is making you so stressed? Is it just too much housework or is it him?

    His behaviour is not acceptable, nor is his attitude towards you and your role within the family. And telling you that you're responsible for his unhappiness, is shifting the blame, if he's unhappy at work, then it's up to him to do something about it. By caring for his children and by working and contributing to the family finances, you are supporting him so that he has the freedom to enjoy his weekends. To not do the same for you is disrespectful to say the least.

    I don't know if you have any way back from this, but for me...hearing my husband tell me that he doesn't love me and that I'm responsible for his problems, would be a deal-breaker for me. You don't need to listen to that, nor do your children.

    And it's interesting that he doesn't have any contact with his family. My husband had a very dysfunctional childhood and he doesn't really see his family now. But I have met them and so has our son. It's strange that you have never met any of his family, so you only have his word for it about how awful they are. Maybe they're the ones that are keeping away from him?
    "I may be many things but not being indiscreet isn't one of them"
    • Loz01
    • By Loz01 21st Sep 16, 8:54 PM
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    Loz01
    Sounds as tho you're taking care of 3 young kids and one very big kid!! Surely having to battle with him to get out of bed or do anything helpful is just causing you unhappiness isn't it? You'd probably feel less stressed on your own.
    Some people think football is a matter of life and death... I assure you, its much more important than that - Bill Shankley.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 22nd Sep 16, 7:11 AM
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    FBaby
    I think I find work easier than childcare
    Then if that is also the case for OP, maybe her husband might have a point about her considering working FT. It could be double benefit, her happier that she gets her break from the kids, her OH having no choice but to help more, and more money to spend on comfort.
    • LannieDuck
    • By LannieDuck 22nd Sep 16, 9:03 AM
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    LannieDuck
    Then if that is also the case for OP, maybe her husband might have a point about her considering working FT. It could be double benefit, her happier that she gets her break from the kids, her OH having no choice but to help more, and more money to spend on comfort.
    Originally posted by FBaby
    I agree. If she can increase her hours and her OH can decrease his, both parties might be happier.
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    “Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.”
    Arthur C. Clarke
    • enthusiasticsaver
    • By enthusiasticsaver 22nd Sep 16, 12:31 PM
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    enthusiasticsaver
    I agree. If she can increase her hours and her OH can decrease his, both parties might be happier.
    Originally posted by LannieDuck
    Would the children be happier though? Presumably 20 hours which is what the OP does and what in fact I did too when my kids were small allowed me to take them and pick them up from school which the OP does at the moment. Having to organise wrap around childcare and deal with rushing kids out in the morning and have them in childcare until 5 or 6pm sounds even more stressful for the OP simply so that her DH is happier?

    I would not buy into that at all as I do not think it would address the point that her DH does not help and she would be working longer hours and dealing with kids in full time child care plus they would hardly see either of their parents during the working week unless they go to bed later.
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  • If you know you're bust you must declare it asap. So no firm ever says "yes we plan to go insolvent". So you never? https://t.co/w8aIKOqHzq

  • Some people misreading... it's NOT the rumours of insolvency of the Monarchy! Its Monarch airlines (again tho I've no idea of its validity)

  • Also re #monarchinsolvency rumours it's important to state Monarch are firmly denying it... https://t.co/N27MENRjY9

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