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  • FIRST POST
    • Stepfly
    • By Stepfly 18th Sep 16, 2:06 PM
    • 14Posts
    • 8Thanks
    Stepfly
    PARKING TICKET: I've been a fool. Any advice?
    • #1
    • 18th Sep 16, 2:06 PM
    PARKING TICKET: I've been a fool. Any advice? 18th Sep 16 at 2:06 PM
    First off, this is my own damn fault, which makes this all the more aggravating (I do appreciate a lot of the discussion on these boards applies to people being unfairly targeted rather than victims of their own stupidity)

    Anyway, I live in an apartment block with an underground car park. In the last twelve months or so the building owners (an impersonal, non-local megacorp) have mandated the use of parking permits.

    Ok, fair enough. As a resident I have a permit BUT although I drive I don't own a car, so only use the permit very infrequently when a friend wants to stay, or I have borrowed a vehicle for a specific purpose. I don't think I've needed it for about 6 weeks.

    I've had a very rough summer, and a particular bad last week so a friend came round to cheer me up (we went out for a drink...)

    He arrived early, surprising me (you can probably guess what's coming). I let him in... and forgot to display the damn permit.

    We get back to the car and my friend has been stung with a 100 ticket (60 if paid before the end of the week). I'm absolutely gutted (on top of my previous lows). Never been caught out like this before, and it was just a moment's forgetfulness we can all suffer.

    I was in the process of composing a begging appeal letter, explaining I was a resident, my current state of mind etc, but a cursory glance at other stories here suggests that given it's UKCPS LTD I might as well just save the postage as bother with that.

    Glancing at the pages and pages of people's extended battles with these private companies my heart falls. It's my mate's car, yet I'm at fault... But neither of us are in the financial position to just swallow the ticket without substantial pain (plus, I *do* have a permit, which rankles me deeply, even though I'm the twit here)

    Is there any (sensible) way to push against this, or is it just a (very costly) lesson not to be depressed and forgetful in future?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to comment.
Page 1
    • catfunt
    • By catfunt 18th Sep 16, 2:15 PM
    • 405 Posts
    • 582 Thanks
    catfunt
    • #2
    • 18th Sep 16, 2:15 PM
    • #2
    • 18th Sep 16, 2:15 PM
    OK. No need for panic or doing anything hasty.

    You need to advise your friend to come on this site. He is the one with the private parking notice.

    Have a read of the NEWBIES thread.. and have a look on here for other tickets for "parked in own space". This is perfectly defendable.

    Also check the terms of your lease. Have you lived there since before the parking permit system came in?

    Don't get distracted by the offer of the discount for early payment.
    Take a little time, read and learn about what is actually going on here and you'll be in a better position to defend this.
    Got a Private Parking Notice??
    ** Do Not Pay
    ** Do Not Ignore a Notice to Keeper (except Scotland)
    ** Do not mention who was driving (No "Me" Myself" "I")
    ** Never, ever phone a Private Parking Company
    ** Please read the NEWBIES thread at the top of the forum
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 18th Sep 16, 2:19 PM
    • 816 Posts
    • 1,418 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #3
    • 18th Sep 16, 2:19 PM
    • #3
    • 18th Sep 16, 2:19 PM
    Check your house insurance for legal cover. If Megacorp are attempting to change terms of your lease then you should resist. Imposing restrictions that are not there in the original grant can have a material effect on the valuation of the property - and a loss to you.

    So continuing to accept terms that were not in the grant of the lease means you are instrumental in agreeing the variation and causing your own loss.

    You may see it as a simple parking ticket when it is a land grab as it diminishes your value and increases theirs.

    Get a solicitor onto it.
    "One thing you realise about the gangs and the criminals [and parking companies] is that it's acting by another means. If you go into a bank or a shop and you want them to believe that you're going to shoot them [or go to court], that's an acting exercise. Nine out of 10 delinquents [and their solicitors] are frustrated actors". Peter Mullan, actor
    • Stepfly
    • By Stepfly 18th Sep 16, 4:44 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Stepfly
    • #4
    • 18th Sep 16, 4:44 PM
    • #4
    • 18th Sep 16, 4:44 PM
    Many thanks, Catfunt, IamEmanresu for the swift responses. Very much appreciated. I neglected to mention that I'm a private tenant.

    I'm not at my home address right now, but I'll check the parking provisions in my tenancy agreement when I get home tomorrow. I'm certain that my agreement predates the official implementation of this policy, but whether there was something vaguer earlier in the tenancy language I'll have to see.

    I appreciate what you say re. directing my friend here, but I do feel entirely responsible and have taken on the task of information gathering, which only seems fair. Plus, I think he'd take one look at the density of information here, legal ramifications, and hoops to jump through etc and just elect to pay the damn ticket. To be honest I feel a little daunted myself just going through the newbies section. There's a lot to process if you aren't used to this!

    Possibly my search-fu is failing me but doing a forum trawl for "parked in own space" has yielded SO many unrelated hits I'm struggling to parse the info usefully. Is there a method of getting more granular results that a newb like me isn't seeing?

    Is a best first approach to write to UKCPS LTD at their "appeals address" on behalf of my friend and say it is my space and the permit fell down/ was obscured and, anyway (should this be true!) my tenancy agreement predates the permit system and its enforcement and see what happens?

    He's a good friend, and was there lending support in a difficult time, and I'd feel awful if he was dogged by legal letters/ extended legal hassles/ because of my moment's forgetfulness. The ticking clock element does bother me as well, irrational as that is.

    I don't have a solicitor, and given my own financial situation I'm loathe to bring one in for what - at the moment - seems like such a trivial matter. Thanks.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th Sep 16, 4:55 PM
    • 35,447 Posts
    • 71,493 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #5
    • 18th Sep 16, 4:55 PM
    • #5
    • 18th Sep 16, 4:55 PM
    You should also direct your friend to the Sticky thread for NEWBIES and then send the IPC template letter he will find there. Copy and paste and send using whatever method is on the PCN. Do NOT reveal who was driving.
    If by post then send it first class from a Post office and obtain a free proof of posting.


    That's it, appeal done. The advice then is either to make an IAS appeal to their kangaroo court then ignore anything and everything he gets for the next six years unless he receives real court papers, or ignore anything and everything after the initial appeal for the next six years unless he gets real court papers.

    None of this is your fault. The blame lies squarely with the idiots that employed a private parking scammer to scam genuine residents and their visitors.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 18-09-2016 at 5:03 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Stepfly
    • By Stepfly 18th Sep 16, 11:14 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Stepfly
    • #6
    • 18th Sep 16, 11:14 PM
    • #6
    • 18th Sep 16, 11:14 PM
    Thanks a lot for the advice, Fruitcake. Very helpful.

    The PPC letter says they only accept appeals by post, so a physical letter it is then, I guess.

    The form letter says "giving the registered keeper's name and address". Presumably just after the signature?

    I wonder if there is anything to be gained by amending the appeal letter to indicate that the "driver" was visiting someone in the building with a permit, and including a photocopy of the valid permit (which I already have)? Or is that more likely to undermine the form content?

    Yes, it seems like there is little to be gained from an IAS appeal, and some firms are emboldened if you do so and they (inevitably) win.

    UKCPS LTD don't seem to be on the list of particularly litigious firms, so ignoring hysterical letters is an option.

    Thanks again for taking the time.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Sep 16, 2:56 AM
    • 10,262 Posts
    • 15,125 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #7
    • 19th Sep 16, 2:56 AM
    • #7
    • 19th Sep 16, 2:56 AM
    I wonder if there is anything to be gained by amending the appeal letter to indicate that the "driver" was visiting someone in the building with a permit, and including a photocopy of the valid permit (which I already have)? Or is that more likely to undermine the form content?
    It won't make any material difference, so I wouldn't bother. The initial appeal needs to arrive with UKCPS just before their deadline for appeal - don't rush this, timing can be beneficial.

    UKCPS LTD don't seem to be on the list of particularly litigious firms, so ignoring hysterical letters is an option.
    Depends on your definition of 'particularly litigious'.

    While they're not in among the 'big boys' like ParkingEye, they're not shy in the 'court department', so don't fall asleep on this. Be alive to a Letter Before Claim (or similarly named) or real court papers, neither of which should be ignored. .

    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/UKCPS.html

    They have 6 years to make a court claim, and no one can predict how they will behave between now and 2022

    I understand you are trying to 'protect' your friend, but he really needs to be at least aware of what's happening (as stuff is going to be coming through his letterbox). Maybe you should tackle this jointly, moral support, two brains on the job, but ultimately it is his problem to resolve.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 19-09-2016 at 3:09 AM.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 19th Sep 16, 10:10 AM
    • 2,808 Posts
    • 3,674 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #8
    • 19th Sep 16, 10:10 AM
    • #8
    • 19th Sep 16, 10:10 AM
    Why do you suddenly need a permit?
    This is anything but "fair enough" and you should object to any imposition of a permit scheme on the strongest grounds.

    A third party (the property management co ) sub letting your space/property to a profit making business, such as a parking company is far from reasonable.
    Last edited by Half_way; 19-09-2016 at 10:12 AM.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Stepfly
    • By Stepfly 19th Sep 16, 6:33 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Stepfly
    • #9
    • 19th Sep 16, 6:33 PM
    • #9
    • 19th Sep 16, 6:33 PM
    Cheers, Umkomaas.

    I suppose I had it my head that trying to "prove" I was a resident and had a valid permit might be a way of getting them to back off, but I see that's naive. This is how they scam their money so have no incentive to do so.

    I'll let my mate know the details of the appeal letter that needs to be sent. This was just my information gathering phase. I'm assuming there's no real need to adapt the standard form letter from the Newbs page for this particular occurrence.

    The Newbies page says wait three weeks to send the appeal so it gets there just before their appeal deadline.

    The prospect of court action does make me nervous ditto for my friend, I'm sure - and, in fairness, there is signage and it's pretty clear - but your link shows they've issued 26,325 tickets this year and gone to court 64 times, so the odds are ok.

    Other than keeping all correspondence is there anything else that is sensible to do to ensure the right outcome should it come to court?

    Is there any value in writing to the landowners?

    @Half_Way

    No, you're right. I just never anticipated being in this situation as I had a permit and rarely use the car park so I let it slide. Which is my bad.

    There doesn't seem to be ANY mention of parking rules or limitations in my tenancy agreement.

    Anyway, thanks once more for the help.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Sep 16, 6:41 PM
    • 38,296 Posts
    • 49,767 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I'll let my mate know the details of the appeal letter that needs to be sent. This was just my information gathering phase. I'm assuming there's no real need to adapt the standard form letter from the Newbs page for this particular occurrence. The Newbies page says wait three weeks to send the appeal so it gets there just before their appeal deadline.
    Yes - but check the PCN just in case it's one which says you must appeal within 21 days (rather than 28) because I think maybe UKCPS only allow 21 days and only the driver to appeal at this point. So, your friend could just wait for the NTK to arrive in the post and THEN send the template appeal, always writing as the keeper (we assume he is not a company car driver and his name & address is in the V5).

    Other than keeping all correspondence is there anything else that is sensible to do to ensure the right outcome should it come to court?
    Yep - my strong advice is, DO NOT TRY IAS at all because you'll lose and then the PPC might use what they'll paint as an 'independent ADR decision' in court. A Judge would not know it's a kangaroo court and might be swayed a little by the IAS win for the parking firm. DO NOT hand the PPC that advantage so tell your friend that when he gets his rejection letter he STOPS and files letters safely instead (keep them, just in case).

    Stick, don't twist, at IAS stage.

    Ignore the begging letters after that. Don't ignore court papers or a solicitor's letter.

    Oh, and get some photos of how bad the signs are, right NOW. Entrance lacking in signs? Any obscured signs? Any angles you can take a photo from which show the 100 to be illegible from a car/from a space/unlit at night if the car was parked in the dark? Collect evidence NOW. File it away.

    Is there any value in writing to the landowners?
    Certainly - ALWAYS COMPLAIN. It can work; often landowners have an allowance of certain number of 'charges' they can cancel. Your friend should hurry with that - sometimes there's a short (e.g. seven/10 day) window for free cancellation by the landowner if they support a resident!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 19-09-2016 at 6:46 PM.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Sep 16, 9:37 PM
    • 10,262 Posts
    • 15,125 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Cheers, Umkomaas.
    Not a problem. Coupon-mad has summed up in many fewer words than I could muster to put you on the right track for this - trust her advice.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Stepfly
    • By Stepfly 20th Sep 16, 4:53 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Stepfly
    Many thanks for the detailed advice, Coupon-mad. Extremely helpful.

    Yes - but check the PCN just in case it's one which says you must appeal within 21 days (rather than 28) because I think maybe UKCPS only allow 21 days and only the driver to appeal at this point. So, your friend could just wait for the NTK to arrive in the post and THEN send the template appeal, always writing as the keeper (we assume he is not a company car driver and his name & address is in the V5).
    No, it's a private car (added wrinkle- it's since been scrapped, though that isn't really germane here)

    I've checked, and you're correct, they only allow 21 days to appeal. However, I don't see any indication that the person appealing has to be the driver. It just says:

    "You must provide your full name and address, the vehicle reg number and the Parking Reference at the top of this notice and your full reasons for contesting liability otherwise your appeal will not be processed."

    However, it later says:

    "In the event that payment is not made in full within 28 days of issue of this PCN, the vehicle's keeper details may be requested from the DVLA and a notice may be sent to the registered keeper."

    With this in mind is there any value in writing *before* the NTK arrives if it's only 21 days for the appeal, or is it best to just fire off the template letter once the NTK shows up, which - if I'm reading that correctly - would have to be AFTER 28 days (because they can't get the keeper's details from the DVLA until the 28 days has passed) Does it make ANY difference?

    Yep - my strong advice is, DO NOT TRY IAS at all because you'll lose and then the PPC might use what they'll paint as an 'independent ADR decision' in court. A Judge would not know it's a kangaroo court and might be swayed a little by the IAS win for the parking firm. DO NOT hand the PPC that advantage so tell your friend that when he gets his rejection letter he STOPS and files letters safely instead (keep them, just in case).

    Stick, don't twist, at IAS stage.
    Received loud and clear!

    Ignore the begging letters after that. Don't ignore court papers or a solicitor's letter.
    I will let him know... But I know he's very skittish about even the possibility of court action (I am too TBH). Are the chances of winning in that eventuality pretty high, or no way of knowing/ lap of the gods?

    Oh, and get some photos of how bad the signs are, right NOW. Entrance lacking in signs? Any obscured signs? Any angles you can take a photo from which show the 100 to be illegible from a car/from a space/unlit at night if the car was parked in the dark? Collect evidence NOW. File it away.
    I've taken some snaps, but they aren't terribly helpful tbh. The signs are quite prominent (though, the 100 penalty is pretty small and couldn't be seen from a driver's seated position). Also, the lights in the garage automatically turn off after a period and then the signage is totally obscured in the dark (and I have a shot of that!)

    Certainly - ALWAYS COMPLAIN. It can work; often landowners have an allowance of certain number of 'charges' they can cancel. Your friend should hurry with that - sometimes there's a short (e.g. seven/10 day) window for free cancellation by the landowner if they support a resident!
    I've checked, but can only find information for the Management Company NOT the landowners. Would that be myself or my friend to write that letter (esp, since *I'm* the resident) and are there important DOs and DON'Ts for a letter of complaint i.e. like not identifying the name of the driver?

    Thanks again, though. Much appreciated. This is a real time-consuming, aggravating nonsense so it's good to have advice.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 20th Sep 16, 6:00 PM
    • 2,808 Posts
    • 3,674 Thanks
    Half_way
    I've taken some snaps, but they aren't terribly helpful tbh
    if the writing on them is readable then that will be good enough, upload them and post a partial link ie instead of http://www. try hxxp://www. and end it with dot co dot uk or dot com instead of .co.uk


    I've checked, but can only find information for the Management Company
    That will do, as it is they who have taken on scumbag parking as their agents.
    you need to complain and tell them that thye must cancel this and anjy future parking charge notice as they are acting unreasonably in allowing a PPC to operate and as a result they are :
    Sub letting your space to a profit driven entity that operates in an unregulated industry

    That You have/are only displaying a permit entirely at your own discretion, and that of whoever else may be driving a vehicle that you have consented to park in your space.

    The management company is jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents, in this case UKCPS

    You do not appreciate having your time wasted as a result of the management company's lack of due diligence and unreasonable behaviour in allowing a company such as UKCPs to operate a profit making business on the land, and as such you may invoice the management company at upto 19 per hour as a result of the actions of their agents.

    The sign age lacks planning permission and crucially advertising consent, Signs erected by parking companies require advertising consent under the Town and country Planning (Control of Advertisements ) (England) Regulations 2007, The management company is also liable for the signs.
    Unlike planning permission adversing consent can not be retrospectively granted, failure to comply with the previously mentioned act can, means that a person displaying an advertisement in contravention ofthese Regulations shall be liable, on summary conviction of a criminal offence under section 224(3) of the Act, to a fine of an amount not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale (a) and, in the case of a continuing offence, one tenth of level 4 on the standard scale for each day during which the offence continues after conviction. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/783/pdfs/uksi_20070783_en.pdf

    I would also request that the management company removes all offending signage with immediate effect
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Stepfly
    • By Stepfly 21st Sep 16, 4:26 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Stepfly
    Thanks, Half_way. I'll complain to the Management Company using the language you've suggested. I suppose I don't know for *definite* they haven't acquired planning permission or advertising consent... Though, it seems highly unlikely and the letter can't hurt.

    I'm a private tenant rather than the owner of the property in the block of flats. Does the argument still hold then that they are "Sub letting" the space in that situation?

    When you say "upload the pics" do you mean to another site and link them here with the partial link ie, or on this forum itself? Apologies. I'm not very au fait with the tech end.

    Cheers.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 21st Sep 16, 5:40 PM
    • 5,262 Posts
    • 3,803 Thanks
    The Deep
    A Judge would not know it's a kangaroo court

    He would if you tell him. Besides, an anonymous half-baked adjudication will flouts all the norms of evidence and fair play could be used as a stick to beat the PPC in court. Appealing an IAS decision is the way to go imo.

    There are lots of ways that you can argue this, no v.a.t. receipt, no contract, it is a penalty, signs are unreadable/non compliant, no authority to issue charges, but I doubt if planning permission is one of them.
    Last edited by The Deep; 21-09-2016 at 5:58 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Sep 16, 11:03 PM
    • 38,296 Posts
    • 49,767 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    When you say "upload the pics" do you mean to another site and link them here with the partial link ie, or on this forum itself?
    Originally posted by Stepfly
    Host photos in Dropbox or on tinypic, photobucket or similar then get the short URL of the picture and post it here, but without the 'http'. Then we can convert it back to a full link.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • yotmon
    • By yotmon 22nd Sep 16, 1:42 AM
    • 301 Posts
    • 367 Thanks
    yotmon
    What is the 'arrangement' if a visitor calls - do u have to stand outside your apartment block in the rain waiting to hand over the parking permit, or is there a grace period to allow the permit to be collected ?
    Does the ticket just say 'parking permit not displayed' or does it give a time period of parking. It should be feasible to allow a visitor the time to call at the address, collect the permit and return to their vehicle without receiving a parking charge.
    • Stepfly
    • By Stepfly 22nd Sep 16, 2:43 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Stepfly
    ok, have got the images uploaded to tinypic.

    Do I just post bare links, rather than tinypic "IMG code for forums and message boards" links using the forum posting link option (which causes the full-sized image to be displayed directly into this thread)

    Thanks.
    • bod1467
    • By bod1467 22nd Sep 16, 3:03 PM
    • 14,740 Posts
    • 13,381 Thanks
    bod1467
    Please do not try to use IMG code ... just post the links.
    Got a Parking Charge Notice (parking ticket - IT'S NOT A FINE!)? Go here for further info ...
    Main site > MoneySavingExpert.com Forums > Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking >
    ... and click on the NEWBIES sticky thread (4816822)
    Please do not PM me for help - I will not offer help via PM.
    • Stepfly
    • By Stepfly 22nd Sep 16, 3:19 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Stepfly
    Ok, here are the signs...

    http://i67.tinypic.com/2585qnn.jpg

    (that is from the parking space as if from a car parked there)

    http://i68.tinypic.com/5umf7d.jpg

    (that's the external signage)

    http://i65.tinypic.com/vgqz5g.jpg

    (that's a direct on view)

    http://i67.tinypic.com/w7ewo.jpg

    (that's how it looks when the automatic lights click off after a few mins!)
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