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  • FIRST POST
    • jjs123
    • By jjs123 16th Sep 16, 9:17 PM
    • 7Posts
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    jjs123
    cash withdrawal charges
    • #1
    • 16th Sep 16, 9:17 PM
    cash withdrawal charges 16th Sep 16 at 9:17 PM
    Hi,

    I know this is my own stupid fault but over the years I have used credit cards for lots of cash withdrawals (including online gambling deposits which are treated as cash withdrawals) in order to fund a gamble habit. I have therefore incurred a lot of cash withdrawal charges and interest on cash withdrawals.

    I have read on this website and elsewhere that it's possible to reclaim bank charges for going over your overdraft limit if the charges are deemed to be unfair (excessively high compared to what ďthe offenseĒ costs the bank). Furthermore, if you are deemed to be in hardship this helps your case when trying to get the charges refunded.

    Cash withdrawals using a credit card are very expensive (typically a 3% fee plus interest is charged immediately) but a lot less in comparison to bank charges that could be incurred for going as little as 1p over your overdraft limit. Also, you can accidentally go over your bank overdraft limit whereas credit card withdrawals arenít an accident!

    So my question is are credit card cash withdrawal charges unfair (excessively high compared to what it costs the credit card company) and if so has anyone had credit card cash withdrawal fees refunded? I am guessing people donít think the charges are unfair and havenít received refunds but thereís no harm in asking.

    Apologies if this has already been discussed elsewhere.

    Thanks
Page 1
    • YorkshireBoy
    • By YorkshireBoy 16th Sep 16, 9:50 PM
    • 27,881 Posts
    • 15,756 Thanks
    YorkshireBoy
    • #2
    • 16th Sep 16, 9:50 PM
    • #2
    • 16th Sep 16, 9:50 PM
    The answer is no. Nice try though!
    • bigadaj
    • By bigadaj 16th Sep 16, 10:27 PM
    • 7,383 Posts
    • 4,419 Thanks
    bigadaj
    • #3
    • 16th Sep 16, 10:27 PM
    • #3
    • 16th Sep 16, 10:27 PM
    Worth a punt though?
    • jjs123
    • By jjs123 17th Sep 16, 2:41 PM
    • 7 Posts
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    jjs123
    • #4
    • 17th Sep 16, 2:41 PM
    • #4
    • 17th Sep 16, 2:41 PM
    Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure it is worth a punt bigadaj if no one has had cash withdrawal fees refunded and nobody thinks they're unfair in a similar way to the bank charges (mainly unauthorised overdraft charges) that have been refunded in some cases.

    I guess it's similar to arranged overdraft charges which have very high rates of interest (seen an example on here where the effective annual interest rate would be 3,650% for going a few pounds into the overdraft) but are deemed to be fair.
    • jonesMUFCforever
    • By jonesMUFCforever 17th Sep 16, 3:16 PM
    • 22,940 Posts
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    jonesMUFCforever
    • #5
    • 17th Sep 16, 3:16 PM
    • #5
    • 17th Sep 16, 3:16 PM
    The answer is only to use your own money not the banks.
    What goes around - comes around
    give lots and you will always receive lots
    • YorkshireBoy
    • By YorkshireBoy 17th Sep 16, 4:14 PM
    • 27,881 Posts
    • 15,756 Thanks
    YorkshireBoy
    • #6
    • 17th Sep 16, 4:14 PM
    • #6
    • 17th Sep 16, 4:14 PM
    I'm not sure it is worth a punt bigadaj
    Originally posted by jjs123
    That one went straight over your head didn't it.
    • jjs123
    • By jjs123 17th Sep 16, 4:45 PM
    • 7 Posts
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    jjs123
    • #7
    • 17th Sep 16, 4:45 PM
    • #7
    • 17th Sep 16, 4:45 PM
    Yes I have to admit it did!
    • Anthorn
    • By Anthorn 17th Sep 16, 6:32 PM
    • 2,074 Posts
    • 538 Thanks
    Anthorn
    • #8
    • 17th Sep 16, 6:32 PM
    • #8
    • 17th Sep 16, 6:32 PM
    Hi,

    I know this is my own stupid fault but over the years I have used credit cards for lots of cash withdrawals (including online gambling deposits which are treated as cash withdrawals) in order to fund a gamble habit. I have therefore incurred a lot of cash withdrawal charges and interest on cash withdrawals.

    I have read on this website and elsewhere that it's possible to reclaim bank charges for going over your overdraft limit if the charges are deemed to be unfair (excessively high compared to what “the offense” costs the bank). Furthermore, if you are deemed to be in hardship this helps your case when trying to get the charges refunded.

    Cash withdrawals using a credit card are very expensive (typically a 3% fee plus interest is charged immediately) but a lot less in comparison to bank charges that could be incurred for going as little as 1p over your overdraft limit. Also, you can accidentally go over your bank overdraft limit whereas credit card withdrawals aren’t an accident!

    So my question is are credit card cash withdrawal charges unfair (excessively high compared to what it costs the credit card company) and if so has anyone had credit card cash withdrawal fees refunded? I am guessing people don’t think the charges are unfair and haven’t received refunds but there’s no harm in asking.

    Apologies if this has already been discussed elsewhere.

    Thanks
    Originally posted by jjs123
    As far as I know charges on bank accounts which are causing financial hardship can be reclaimed. According to its nature charges which are causing financial hardship must be current.

    We in the U.K. have already been through the charges on credit cards and the OFT ruled that credit card charges were excessive and came up with a acceptable charge of £12 which most card issuers now charge. So you're out of luck unless each of your charges are more than £12 or possibly you had excessive charges levied prior to 2006. Probably doesn't apply to cash advance fees and interest.

    https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/reclaiming-unfair-credit-card-charges
    Last edited by Anthorn; 17-09-2016 at 6:35 PM.
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    • Somerset La La La
    • By Somerset La La La 17th Sep 16, 7:21 PM
    • 281 Posts
    • 72 Thanks
    Somerset La La La
    • #9
    • 17th Sep 16, 7:21 PM
    • #9
    • 17th Sep 16, 7:21 PM
    I thought Gambling sites didn't attract the cash advance fees nowadays, because of the loophole where you could 'win' (by shoving it all on 1/100 or similar... yes its not risk free!!) and then get a refund bit by bit from the betting company, each withdrawal (refund) triggering a £3 fee refund?

    Ah cash machine withdrawals too.... they'll argue rather than £3 it could be £12....
    Last edited by Somerset La La La; 17-09-2016 at 7:23 PM. Reason: seen ATM withdrawals
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    • jjs123
    • By jjs123 18th Sep 16, 9:03 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    jjs123
    Hi Somerset La La La, that might be a case for some gambling websites but not the ones I've used recently. I've just checked some recent credit card statements and everywhere there are online gambling transactions (deposits to gambling accounts) there are corresponding 'CASH ADVANCE FEE' transactions for 5% of the deposit amounts . There is obviously 'Cash interest' as well on the statements. Looking back at the statements I'm shocked at the amount of money I've wasted on fees and cash interest alone.
    • jjs123
    • By jjs123 18th Sep 16, 9:20 AM
    • 7 Posts
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    jjs123
    Thanks Anthorn for the reply and link to the 'Reclaiming unfair credit card charges' article. It looks like charges relating to 'late payment or missed payments or exceeding credit limits' are sometimes refunded then but there's no mention of charges relating to cash withdrawals. I rarely go over my credit card limits or miss payments (juggle 0% credit cards and now have a lot of them!) so it's the credit card cash withdrawal charges and bank account arranged overdraft charges that really mount up for me. Obviously the aim in the future is to stop incurring these charges in the first place
    • Ballard
    • By Ballard 18th Sep 16, 9:45 AM
    • 1,119 Posts
    • 813 Thanks
    Ballard
    Obviously the aim in the future is to stop incurring these charges in the first place
    Originally posted by jjs123
    That sounds like an excellent plan. I once had a fairly minor gambling problem (fruit machines) which I managed to sort out on my own but if you're struggling with that then I hope that you're able to get some help from the likes of gamcare.
    I got a letter from the government the other day. I opened it and read it. It said they were suckers.
    • Malcnascar
    • By Malcnascar 18th Sep 16, 11:03 AM
    • 1,018 Posts
    • 1,123 Thanks
    Malcnascar
    11/10 says yes you will get them back, 5/1 on says you won't. I don't gamble but even I know these odds are stacked in favour of the Banks.

    It's not my place to comment on how you choose to spend your own money, however, if you choose to spend someone else's money there are conditions which apply and if the Banks break their own terms and conditions they should repay. If they don't then you pay.

    I made up the odds and they are purely fictional for the purpose of making a point. T& C's apply, lol
    • PeacefulWaters
    • By PeacefulWaters 18th Sep 16, 1:48 PM
    • 4,682 Posts
    • 5,681 Thanks
    PeacefulWaters
    11/10 says yes you will get them back, 5/1 on says you won't. I don't gamble but even I know these odds are stacked in favour of the Banks.
    Originally posted by Malcnascar
    I'll have £10,000 on get them back.

    And £3,500 on not get them back.
    • jjs123
    • By jjs123 18th Sep 16, 2:14 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    jjs123
    Thanks for the friendly advice regarding Gamcare etc and I accept that I'm responsible for my own actions and that I have made poor choices. Having said that I'm not a big fan of the banks (bailouts, bonuses etc) and they've made a lot of money out of me over the years so I wouldn't feel too bad if some of the charges were deemed to be unfair and were refunded. I accept this is highly unlikely though and appreciate finding this out now so that I don't waste my time writing to the banks. Just to add I have tried lots of things to stop gambling in the past and I will eventually break the habit.
    • Anthorn
    • By Anthorn 22nd Sep 16, 10:24 AM
    • 2,074 Posts
    • 538 Thanks
    Anthorn
    Thanks Anthorn for the reply and link to the 'Reclaiming unfair credit card charges' article. It looks like charges relating to 'late payment or missed payments or exceeding credit limits' are sometimes refunded then but there's no mention of charges relating to cash withdrawals. I rarely go over my credit card limits or miss payments (juggle 0% credit cards and now have a lot of them!) so it's the credit card cash withdrawal charges and bank account arranged overdraft charges that really mount up for me. Obviously the aim in the future is to stop incurring these charges in the first place
    Originally posted by jjs123
    You said it yourself, cash advance fees and interest rates are not covered by the OFT ruling. Basically if you don't like the fees don't get a cash advance and/or gamble in the first place.
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    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 23rd Sep 16, 7:02 AM
    • 5,936 Posts
    • 3,039 Thanks
    chattychappy
    We in the U.K. have already been through the charges on credit cards and the OFT ruled that credit card charges were excessive and came up with a acceptable charge of £12 which most card issuers now charge. So you're out of luck unless each of your charges are more than £12 or possibly you had excessive charges levied prior to 2006. Probably doesn't apply to cash advance fees and interest.

    https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/reclaiming-unfair-credit-card-charges
    Originally posted by Anthorn
    You said it yourself, cash advance fees and interest rates are not covered by the OFT ruling.
    Originally posted by Anthorn
    Yes.

    The distinction is that cash advance fees are simply fees for a service freely purchased. You are allowed to obtain cash advances and this is a feature promoted. The fee is a charge for accessing that service.

    Late payment fees (etc) are "liquidated damages". It is a breach of the terms and conditions to pay late or go over limit. CC contracts used to put in a charge of as much as £30 into their T+Cs for such a breach. However under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (which applied at the time), such fees must be a fair reflection of the cost to the injured party of the breach. I believe the original challenge was by a law student, but the case was continued by the OFT (the regulator at the time). They found that the maximum enforceable fee would depend on each case. They said that if CCs had a flat charge of more than £12, then they would intervene to investigate. They specifically said that £12 would not always be legally enforceable - sometimes more would be appropriate, sometimes less. Despite this, £12 has become a de-facto charge.

    So in conclusion:
    1) You can challenge penalties for breaches of T+Cs if you think that the penalty charged exceeds what it cost the CC to deal with the breach.

    2) You cannot challenge "fees" for services, unless you can find some other legislation that has been missed by somebody.

    In the case of current account charges, it was ruled that in the main, overdraft fees were not penalties and not reclaimable under the UTCCR1999.
    • jjs123
    • By jjs123 26th Sep 16, 12:18 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    jjs123
    Thanks chattychappy, that explains everything I wanted to know about bank account and credit card charges!
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