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  • FIRST POST
    • treecol
    • By treecol 16th Sep 16, 1:07 PM
    • 218Posts
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    treecol
    Land registry forms
    • #1
    • 16th Sep 16, 1:07 PM
    Land registry forms 16th Sep 16 at 1:07 PM
    After finally getting the grant of probate for my late mother in law, we now move onto the forms which we needed the grant for.
    My late mother in law owned a piece of land with her brother (still alive) as beneficial tenants in common & this land as per her will, will pass to her husband. However, having just made an appointment with our solicitor to check I'm filling in the land registry forms correctly, the solicitors secretary said we would need permission from my late mil's brother as he is the other co-owner. She said if he will not give his permission for the land to pass to my fil, as restriction would have to be placed on the land.
    Is that really correct? That would be a huge problem as her brother would never agree to it passing to my fil in spite of her will stating so.
Page 1
    • chesky
    • By chesky 16th Sep 16, 2:43 PM
    • 574 Posts
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    chesky
    • #2
    • 16th Sep 16, 2:43 PM
    • #2
    • 16th Sep 16, 2:43 PM
    Solicitors aren't infallible. You might try calling the Land Registry yourself; they're incredibly helpful and will steer you in the right direction. They certainly did with me, after a solicitor was less than helpful.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 16th Sep 16, 3:35 PM
    • 1,616 Posts
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    Yorkshireman99
    • #3
    • 16th Sep 16, 3:35 PM
    • #3
    • 16th Sep 16, 3:35 PM
    After finally getting the grant of probate for my late mother in law, we now move onto the forms which we needed the grant for.
    My late mother in law owned a piece of land with her brother (still alive) as beneficial tenants in common & this land as per her will, will pass to her husband. However, having just made an appointment with our solicitor to check I'm filling in the land registry forms correctly, the solicitors secretary said we would need permission from my late mil's brother as he is the other co-owner. She said if he will not give his permission for the land to pass to my fil, as restriction would have to be placed on the land.
    Is that really correct? That would be a huge problem as her brother would never agree to it passing to my fil in spite of her will stating so.
    Originally posted by treecol
    The co-wner cannot prevent the other passing their part by will. If need be the court will force him to do so and he will have to pay the costs. Somebody needs to talk some sense into him.
    Last edited by Yorkshireman99; 16-09-2016 at 7:45 PM.
    • treecol
    • By treecol 16th Sep 16, 6:48 PM
    • 218 Posts
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    treecol
    • #4
    • 16th Sep 16, 6:48 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Sep 16, 6:48 PM
    I will call the land registry, they already told me which forms to fill in. There is just one confusing question in which they say if it is left blank, they will put the restriction on the land. That made me worried hence involving solicitor.
    • Crabapple
    • By Crabapple 16th Sep 16, 10:17 PM
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    Crabapple
    • #5
    • 16th Sep 16, 10:17 PM
    • #5
    • 16th Sep 16, 10:17 PM
    Did they not say that the co-owner needs to sign the transfer forms?

    I don't see how you could transfer the registered title without him doing so. The gift in the will stands, but you would have to protect that interest in another way like a restriction as stated.
    Daughter born January 2012 Son born February 2014

    Slimming World ~ trying to get back on the wagon...
    • treecol
    • By treecol 17th Sep 16, 7:03 AM
    • 218 Posts
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    treecol
    • #6
    • 17th Sep 16, 7:03 AM
    • #6
    • 17th Sep 16, 7:03 AM
    The land registry emailed me some info yesterday following my initial call to them. I'm stuggeling to understand the terms in it, but it looks to me like her brother has to be named on the form & that would mean signing it too.
    Trouble is, he would refuse to do so. He has always wanted the land for himself & would not do anything to enable my fil to inherit.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 17th Sep 16, 7:19 AM
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    Yorkshireman99
    • #7
    • 17th Sep 16, 7:19 AM
    • #7
    • 17th Sep 16, 7:19 AM
    The land registry emailed me some info yesterday following my initial call to them. I'm stuggeling to understand the terms in it, but it looks to me like her brother has to be named on the form & that would mean signing it too.
    Trouble is, he would refuse to do so. He has always wanted the land for himself & would not do anything to enable my fil to inherit.
    Originally posted by treecol
    In which case you are probably going to have to take him to court. A trip to the solicitor is called for as he can be forced to allow the registration. The other alternative would be to force a sale of the land.
    Last edited by Yorkshireman99; 17-09-2016 at 10:14 AM.
    • Crabapple
    • By Crabapple 17th Sep 16, 7:53 AM
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    Crabapple
    • #8
    • 17th Sep 16, 7:53 AM
    • #8
    • 17th Sep 16, 7:53 AM
    You need to get a restriction placed on the title immediately.

    He could otherwise transfer the title himself not to your FIL which will make matters more complicated.

    Court action may be required but it's worth telling him the fact is he hasn't inherited and the share of the land is now your FILs irrespective of whether he signs or not, and as Yorkshireman says he can be taken to court to make him which will cost him.
    Last edited by Crabapple; 17-09-2016 at 7:57 AM.
    Daughter born January 2012 Son born February 2014

    Slimming World ~ trying to get back on the wagon...
    • treecol
    • By treecol 17th Sep 16, 12:12 PM
    • 218 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    treecol
    • #9
    • 17th Sep 16, 12:12 PM
    • #9
    • 17th Sep 16, 12:12 PM
    Thank you both. I had no idea that this would be so complicated - I guess being joint tennants with a sibling who wants the land for himself raises issues the family feared would happen.
    We'll see the solicitor on Tuesday & see how she advises we proceed.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 17th Sep 16, 6:27 PM
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    Keep pedalling
    The land registry emailed me some info yesterday following my initial call to them. I'm stuggeling to understand the terms in it, but it looks to me like her brother has to be named on the form & that would mean signing it too.
    Trouble is, he would refuse to do so. He has always wanted the land for himself & would not do anything to enable my fil to inherit.
    Originally posted by treecol
    If he wants it all himself the solution is simple, he buys out the co owner.
  • Land Registry representative
    I suspect you may have already received this advice from us but posting in case it helps others who may view the post at some stage

    The legal and beneficial ownership are quite separate. The legal ownership, which we register, was in their joint names so when one of them dies it passes to the survivor. They are then the sole surviving legal owner so if the land was to be sold/mortgage or otherwise 'dealt' with then the brother would have to be involved.

    So in your example the brother would need to transfer the whole of the legal title from himself to himself and your late Mother's husband. Probate would not be required.

    The TIC aspect is put in place to protect the beneficial ownership referred to. In essence that restricts the sole surviving owner in his dealings with the beneficial shares. It does not stop him from transferring the legal ownership. But if he sold it for example he would have to appoint someone to act with him to take receipt of the sale monies as the beneficial share is in those monies, namely the land's value, and not in the land itself.

    If he is unwilling to transfer the ownership from himself in the way suggested then it is legal advice you need to ascertain whether there is any legal route available to you to force such a transfer. For example the TIC aspect may be seen as sufficient protection of the 'shares' involved so all the time the legal ownership remains at it is then that is still deemed to be protected in the eyes of the law.

    Forcing a sale to release the beneficial share in the value may be a different matter though but it's legal advice you need here to understand what rights the brother and the husband may have.

    The final point was re protecting the interest in some other way, e.g. a restriction. Legal advice needed again as the view may be that the existing form A restriction presumably already in place is deemed sufficient to protect the inherited share. Remember the inherited share is in the beneficial ownership and therefore the value of the land itself.

    It is complicated and no easy way of explaining such things especially as a significant part revolves around the beneficial ownership and not the legal one which we register.
    Last edited by Land Registry representative; 11-10-2016 at 9:06 AM. Reason: Typo fo instead of of in third para
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • treecol
    • By treecol 10th Oct 16, 8:11 PM
    • 218 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    treecol
    Now I'm really confused. I just thought I'd re-read this thread & noticed the last post by Land Reg rep.
    This doesn't match the advice I've been given during a number of calls to the Land Registry.
    I filled out the forms then called to check one question. Was told late MIL's brother did NOT need to fill the forms out. Carried on completing forms & called to run through all of the forms & was told he DOES need to fill the forms in & he needs to come to an agreement with my FIL as to how the land should be owned between them.
    I was trying to avoid solicitor cost, but think now we'll have to go down that route as her brother will not want to comply as there is animosity towards her husband.
    Now I read that probate is not required, but both the solicitor & Land Registry who I checked twice with, say probate is required as she owned the land between just her & her brother. We do have probate, but the trouble I had getting family to apply for it! The trouble is, I do get conflicting advice from the registry.
    • Crabapple
    • By Crabapple 10th Oct 16, 8:27 PM
    • 1,458 Posts
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    Crabapple
    You don't need probate. You will need to sort this out with the brother and by the sounds of it that may not be simple.

    As the surviving co-owner he is the only one who can sign the legal title over.

    If he refuses to it doesn't change the fact that half the beneficial interest belongs to the husband.
    Daughter born January 2012 Son born February 2014

    Slimming World ~ trying to get back on the wagon...
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 10th Oct 16, 8:40 PM
    • 1,616 Posts
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    Yorkshireman99
    Now I'm really confused. I just thought I'd re-read this thread & noticed the last post by Land Reg rep.
    This doesn't match the advice I've been given during a number of calls to the Land Registry.
    I filled out the forms then called to check one question. Was told late MIL's brother did NOT need to fill the forms out. Carried on completing forms & called to run through all of the forms & was told he DOES need to fill the forms in & he needs to come to an agreement with my FIL as to how the land should be owned between them.
    I was trying to avoid solicitor cost, but think now we'll have to go down that route as her brother will not want to comply as there is animosity towards her husband.
    Now I read that probate is not required, but both the solicitor & Land Registry who I checked twice with, say probate is required as she owned the land between just her & her brother. We do have probate, but the trouble I had getting family to apply for it! The trouble is, I do get conflicting advice from the registry.
    Originally posted by treecol
    You say you have probate but the family will not apply for it! That cannot be correct. If the advice from the Solicitor and the Land Registry say probate is required why do you think they are wrong?
    • treecol
    • By treecol 11th Oct 16, 8:11 AM
    • 218 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    treecol
    No I said the family refused to apply for probate in spite of land registry & solicitor saying it was needed. We now finally have probate, but the post from the land registry up thread says I don't need it & only 2 days ago via phone call they said it is needed. I was simply saying I'm going to get a whole load of grief from the family for persuading htem to apply for probate if it wasn't needed.
    Tennants in common between late wife & her brother means probate is needed for her husband to inherit. That's what LR said last week by phone after checking with a supervisor.
    However my confusion is over formsfor the land to be transferred to her husband as I also have conflicting advise ovr whether hr brothr has to fill forms out. This is a family who are hard to deal with & won't trust any advice including solicitors.
  • Land Registry representative
    Treecol - I am sorry if you have got conflicting advice from us. The devil is always in the detail and I can only assume that the inconsistency has arisen for that reason, namely not checking on the detail.

    Probate is needed for an executor to deal with a deceased's estate. The land is part of that estate but it is important to recognise how the legal ownership changes when land is joint owned.

    On death the legal ownership passes to the survivor. Any transfer of that ownership is completed by the surviving owner, namely the brother. Probate is not required for him to transfer it but may be used to evidence the death.

    As your late MIL willed her share I suspect that is why they became tenants in common and a restriction was placed on the title to protect that. In many cases that restriction is deemed sufficient but this is where your legal advice comes in.

    More than happy to take a look at the registered detail and our records re your previous contacts to clear things up. But it's still wider advice you need as to options available to you and the brother.

    The key point is that the MIL's share is now in the beneficial ownership of the land, so effectively her share of the value of the land. If the brother did sell it, after appointing someone to act with him, any claim would be on the sale monies hence the wording of the restriction.
    Last edited by Land Registry representative; 13-10-2016 at 8:40 AM. Reason: email address removed
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 11th Oct 16, 9:47 AM
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    Yorkshireman99
    No I said the family refused to apply for probate in spite of land registry & solicitor saying it was needed. We now finally have probate, but the post from the land registry up thread says I don't need it & only 2 days ago via phone call they said it is needed. I was simply saying I'm going to get a whole load of grief from the family for persuading htem to apply for probate if it wasn't needed.
    Tennants in common between late wife & her brother means probate is needed for her husband to inherit. That's what LR said last week by phone after checking with a supervisor.
    However my confusion is over formsfor the land to be transferred to her husband as I also have conflicting advise ovr whether hr brothr has to fill forms out. This is a family who are hard to deal with & won't trust any advice including solicitors.
    Originally posted by treecol
    Noted. Apologies for misunderstanding what you said. Hopefully they will come to their senses when the LR rep has advised you.
    • treecol
    • By treecol 13th Oct 16, 6:31 AM
    • 218 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    treecol
    Thank you all for trying to help. I do understand how hard it is online without knowing/seeing all the details. I'm fraught trying to deal with a family who won't cooperate, so not easy all round.
    I have made an appointment with the family solicitor. She has confirmed so far that : probate is needed, father in law is the one who applies to change the register to show his ownership, brother has to fill in parts of the forms & sign.
    So now the harc part will be that the brother will not want to cooperate. Goodness knows how this will go.
    Thank you again for all your help.
    With regard to the Land Registry, I have called, gone through the forms step by step, their advice now corresponds with that of the solicitor. So happy all round - kind of, brother aside!
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 13th Oct 16, 6:49 AM
    • 1,616 Posts
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    Yorkshireman99
    Thank you all for trying to help. I do understand how hard it is online without knowing/seeing all the details. I'm fraught trying to deal with a family who won't cooperate, so not easy all round.
    I have made an appointment with the family solicitor. She has confirmed so far that : probate is needed, father in law is the one who applies to change the register to show his ownership, brother has to fill in parts of the forms & sign.
    So now the harc part will be that the brother will not want to cooperate. Goodness knows how this will go.
    Thank you again for all your help.
    With regard to the Land Registry, I have called, gone through the forms step by step, their advice now corresponds with that of the solicitor. So happy all round - kind of, brother aside!
    Originally posted by treecol
    You have probably told them already but if you tell them how much their pockets will be hurt if they don't cooperate that might concentrate their minds.
    • treecol
    • By treecol 13th Oct 16, 5:38 PM
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    • 28 Thanks
    treecol
    I suspect her brother's logic will be that it will hurt my fil's pocket as he will have to send legal letters etc to her brother asking him to cooperate. When he refuses, it will again cost my fil to instruct solicitor further. Daft isn't it? But his aim will be to string the process out , cost fil money & probably comply at the very last minute.
    I will add to this thread when it's all over with an update.
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