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  • FIRST POST
    • WillNotPayPCNs
    • By WillNotPayPCNs 16th Sep 16, 12:42 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 0Thanks
    WillNotPayPCNs
    Me Vs Excel - next steps
    • #1
    • 16th Sep 16, 12:42 PM
    Me Vs Excel - next steps 16th Sep 16 at 12:42 PM
    Hi all,

    Just wondered if someone could confirm that what I'm about to do next with Excel Parking is correct.

    Having been through the newbies thread I sent a letter in response to a NTK within the appeal time frame asking the questions set out in your template:
    1. Who is the party that contracted with your company? I require their contact details.
    2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
    3. As you are not the landowner please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that you have their authority.
    4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract please provide your justification of this sum.
    6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? Answer yes or no.
    7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please provide a valid VAT invoice for this 'service'.
    8. Please provide a copy of the signs that you can evidence were on site and which you contend formed a contract with the driver on that occasion, as well as all photographs taken of this vehicle.

    Today I got a standard response back, not answering any of the questions, just giving me a heap of rhetoric and options to pay up or appeal to IAS. I've read through some other threads and it seems appealing to IAS is pointless and at worst gives a judge an adjudication to return to if it got to court and they feel lazy.

    They did send the photos of the car in question but the registration cannot be determined in them due to flash on the camera I assume. The signage photos are also included.

    I have only responded as the keeper and not the driver, their first paragraph says "we have not cited POFA 2012 nor stated that you are liable for the Parking Charge as the vehicle keeper. We are suggesting you are liable for the Parking Charge on the reasonable assumption that you were the driver of the vehicle on the date in question, unless evidence to the contrary is provided."

    Here's what I'm planning to do:
    Write to them stipulating that:
    - My previous letter was not an appeal but a request for information.
    - They have only contacted me as the registered keeper after they obtained my details from the DVLA therefore cannot not assert an assumption of any kind that I was the driver.
    - Contrary to my request they have not provided the information I requested to make an informed decision.
    - They have provided a photo of a vehicle which cannot be identified as mine due to the missing VRN in the photo.
    - They have provided the signs stating that a "vehicle remaining on this private land 10 minutes after entry is subject to and agrees in full to the Terms and Conditions".
    - The photo of the vehicle was taken at 21:27, and they stipulate that the paid-for parking period ended at 21:26. Therefore the period up to 21:26 was not liable for charge, and neither is the 10mins after 21:26 in accordance with the signage.
    - They have not provided any proof that the vehicle in question (let's remember, not proved to be my registration in the photos) stayed longer than past 21:36.
    - On the evidence presented to me as the registered keeper I will not be paying the charge.
    - Reiterate "Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs or surcharges. I will not respond to such contact and to involve another firm would be a failure to mitigate your costs which are not my liability because the POFA 2012 can only potentially hold a registered keeper liable if certain provisions have been met and even then, the 'amount of the parking charge' is the only amount pursuable."

    Extra info:
    The parking was paid for using the RingGo app so the registration is obviously traceable there.
    The letter they sent me cites Parking Eye vs Beavis and from reading other forum posts it seems this is irrelevant in their case due to the contractual differences between Parking Eye and Excel with their landowers/employers. I thought I would leave this out but could include it if others think it's worth mentioning at this stage.

    Just wanted to make sure by responding in this way I won't be admitting/giving them info they can use subsequently.

    Thanks in advance, and thanks for helping me get this far with the other advice across the forum.

    Non-Payer of PCNs
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Sep 16, 12:49 PM
    • 48,410 Posts
    • 61,862 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 16th Sep 16, 12:49 PM
    • #2
    • 16th Sep 16, 12:49 PM
    Yes that all sounds reasonable.

    Brace yourself for the blizzard of letters from 'BW legal' who will shape up to take this to court and will try to double the sum for no reason at all that would stand up!

    I would recommend you pore over BW Legal threads on here and pepipoo forum from now on!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Grimble
    • By Grimble 16th Sep 16, 1:17 PM
    • 379 Posts
    • 460 Thanks
    Grimble
    • #3
    • 16th Sep 16, 1:17 PM
    • #3
    • 16th Sep 16, 1:17 PM
    Quote from the former head of POPLA when London Councils run it, Mr Greenslade analyses some of the intricacies around keeper liability, correctly pointing out that
    there is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Harry Greenslade is a barrister ask them if their quote if from a solicitor or barrister, when they spout Elliot v Loake which was a criminal case which relied on Police statements and forensic evidence.
    • WillNotPayPCNs
    • By WillNotPayPCNs 16th Sep 16, 2:24 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    WillNotPayPCNs
    • #4
    • 16th Sep 16, 2:24 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Sep 16, 2:24 PM
    Thanks both, much obliged. I'll keep this thread updated if what I get back could be useful to others.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 16th Sep 16, 3:35 PM
    • 6,726 Posts
    • 5,710 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #5
    • 16th Sep 16, 3:35 PM
    • #5
    • 16th Sep 16, 3:35 PM
    I've read through some other threads and it seems appealing to IAS is pointless and at worst gives a judge an adjudication to return to if it got to court and they feel lazy.

    Not everyone agrees with this. Some of us think that appealing to the IAS serves a very useful purpose indeed.

    If your appeal is rejected, and rumour has it that 80% are, you will have an unsigned piece of paper which turns on its head all established norms of fair play, all the tried and tested rules of adjudication, and comes down heavily om the side of the PPC.

    The IAS is owned/run by an ATA, who are run by a firm of solicitors called Gladstones. It is suspected that the adjudicators are employed by Gladstones, which is why the decisions are unsigned.

    Show the adjudication to a judge, and point out its shortcomings provenance, and it is unlikely imo that a judge will give it much credence.

    Your choice, but do not dismiss the value of an IAS appeal.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • WillNotPayPCNs
    • By WillNotPayPCNs 19th Mar 17, 11:22 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    WillNotPayPCNs
    • #6
    • 19th Mar 17, 11:22 AM
    • #6
    • 19th Mar 17, 11:22 AM
    Hi,

    Quick update on this. Received a couple of letters from BW Legal, including final LBC on Friday (17.03). Have reviewed the advice in post 2 on Newbie thread and pepipoo, so will respond again refuting the debt and referring BW back to Excel, since they have not responded to my requests for information.

    Edit: I did appeal to IAS by the way, which, of course, was rejected.

    Is there any other killer line worth putting in to attempt to stop this getting as far as court?

    Thanks for the support. ��
    Last edited by WillNotPayPCNs; 19-03-2017 at 11:25 AM.
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 19th Mar 17, 11:30 AM
    • 702 Posts
    • 1,537 Thanks
    Lamilad
    • #7
    • 19th Mar 17, 11:30 AM
    • #7
    • 19th Mar 17, 11:30 AM
    Hi,

    Quick update on this. Received a couple of letters from BW Legal, including final LBC on Friday (17.03). Have reviewed the advice in post 2 on Newbie thread and pepipoo, so will respond again refuting the debt and referring BW back to Excel, since they have not responded to my requests for information.

    Edit: I did appeal to IAS by the way, which, of course, was rejected.

    Is there any other killer line worth putting in to attempt to stop this getting as far as court?

    Thanks for the support. ��
    Originally posted by WillNotPayPCNs
    This poster has just been advised on a response to a bwl final notice, might be something you can use.
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5619887
    • WillNotPayPCNs
    • By WillNotPayPCNs 19th Mar 17, 11:51 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    WillNotPayPCNs
    • #8
    • 19th Mar 17, 11:51 AM
    • #8
    • 19th Mar 17, 11:51 AM
    Thanks Lamilad,

    That's the one I've got ready to go. Appreciate the help ��
    • WillNotPayPCNs
    • By WillNotPayPCNs 8th Apr 17, 12:10 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    WillNotPayPCNs
    • #9
    • 8th Apr 17, 12:10 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Apr 17, 12:10 PM
    Update: Sent email as per above. Letter received today from BW confirming file is on hold while they query back with their client and await their further instructions.

    Let's see what their next move is...
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 8th Apr 17, 1:22 PM
    • 702 Posts
    • 1,537 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Standard template response from BWL, as the next letter will be that states they've considered you letter and reject the points you made for the following reasons... blah blah!


    You doing everything right so far but as CM says above they are shaping up to issue court proceedings and nothing you say or do will derail their automated conveyer belt system for issuing claims.


    So start reading up on what to do when the papers arrive - all explained in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread... and look forward to the day you defeat them in court; as virtually every poster assisted by this forum does.
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