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  • FIRST POST
    • tyrrell5953
    • By tyrrell5953 14th Sep 16, 10:27 AM
    • 28Posts
    • 18Thanks
    tyrrell5953
    Park Watch Ticket For Parking in Disabled Bay
    • #1
    • 14th Sep 16, 10:27 AM
    Park Watch Ticket For Parking in Disabled Bay 14th Sep 16 at 10:27 AM
    Hi All,

    Picked up a private parking ticket from park watch the other day for parking in a disabled bay in a free of charge car park at a large retail park.

    Issued by Park Watch with a £100 charge or reduced to £60 within 14 days.

    Have been through the appeals process with a couple of tickets before using the advice on this forum and have always been successful.

    In the past I have always appealed straight away and then taken the POPLA route generally focussed on GPEOL.

    Latest advise I am reading tends to suggest waiting for the NTK and then going from there. The only problem I have with this is that if they issue a NTK the keeper of the vehicle is the Leasing company and they will charge £25 for the privilege of forwarding it on to me.

    Given this am I best appealing Park Watch straight away and waiting for it to be either accepted (unlikely?) or passed to POPLA where i can appeal based on GPEOL (and other factors such as no signs, unfair/unreasonable terms, no actual loss was made, blue badge on private land etc).

    Any advice is much appreciated. Many Thanks!

    K

    Edit 1: Complicated one but additional to note that Keeper of the vehicles V5 is the leasing company on behalf of my ex girlfriend who is actually the legal owner of the vehicle.

    Edit 2: Further clarification, I don't have a blue badge, I parked in a disabled bay as all other spaces were taken and there was around 20 free disabled spaces next to the shop i was going to.
    Last edited by tyrrell5953; 14-09-2016 at 10:44 AM.
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Sep 16, 10:50 AM
    • 11,030 Posts
    • 16,477 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 14th Sep 16, 10:50 AM
    • #2
    • 14th Sep 16, 10:50 AM
    You need to head this off before it gets to the leasing company, so send the BPA operator initial appeal (blue text) from the newbies FAQ sticky to PW, enclose a copy of any Blue Badge.

    At the same time go to the retailer, with evidence of your disability and kick up a fuss there. Threaten a county court claim against them under the Equality Act 2010.

    GPEOL is dead post-Beavis, the Equality Act isn't affected by Beavis.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 14th Sep 16, 10:55 AM
    • 5,446 Posts
    • 4,968 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #3
    • 14th Sep 16, 10:55 AM
    • #3
    • 14th Sep 16, 10:55 AM
    You need to head this off before it gets to the leasing company, so send the BPA operator initial appeal (blue text) from the newbies FAQ sticky to PW, enclose a copy of any Blue Badge.

    At the same time go to the retailer, with evidence of your disability and kick up a fuss there. Threaten a county court claim against them under the Equality Act 2010.

    GPEOL is dead post-Beavis, the Equality Act isn't affected by Beavis.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas

    Edit 2: Further clarification, I don't have a blue badge, I parked in a disabled bay as all other spaces were taken and there was around 20 free disabled spaces next to the shop i was going to.



    mother and child , ok disabled bays are there for a reason , not to save a non disabled person 2 mins walk
    Have YOU had to walk 500 miles?
    Were you advised to walk 500 more?
    You could be entitled to compensation.
    Call the Pro Claimers NOW.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Sep 16, 11:00 AM
    • 11,030 Posts
    • 16,477 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 14th Sep 16, 11:00 AM
    • #4
    • 14th Sep 16, 11:00 AM
    I assumed you have a disability if you're using a disabled bay?
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • tyrrell5953
    • By tyrrell5953 14th Sep 16, 11:32 AM
    • 28 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    tyrrell5953
    • #5
    • 14th Sep 16, 11:32 AM
    • #5
    • 14th Sep 16, 11:32 AM
    You need to head this off before it gets to the leasing company, so send the BPA operator initial appeal (blue text) from the newbies FAQ sticky to PW, enclose a copy of any Blue Badge.

    At the same time go to the retailer, with evidence of your disability and kick up a fuss there. Threaten a county court claim against them under the Equality Act 2010.

    GPEOL is dead post-Beavis, the Equality Act isn't affected by Beavis.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Edit 2: Further clarification, I don't have a blue badge, I parked in a disabled bay as all other spaces were taken and there was around 20 free disabled spaces next to the shop i was going to.



    mother and child , ok disabled bays are there for a reason , not to save a non disabled person 2 mins walk
    Originally posted by pappa golf
    I assumed you have a disability if you're using a disabled bay?
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    No I don't have a disabled badge and no I don't have a disability. It wasn't to save me 2 minutes walk, there were no other places free at that time. It was a mistake and I understand that but I would rather pay the £60/£100 to a disability charity for my mistake than give it to a private parking firm.

    Apologies if my decision to use a disabled bay has offended anyone.

    Regards,

    K
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Sep 16, 11:26 PM
    • 40,629 Posts
    • 52,499 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 14th Sep 16, 11:26 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Sep 16, 11:26 PM
    Well we aren't impressed by it but we are FAR more offended by private parking firm money-grabbing scumbags. So, send the 'blue writing' template first appeal from the NEWBIES thread to hook it in your direction, of course you must give your name & address but are only identifying yourself as the keeper of the vehicle (which you are, day to day).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • tyrrell5953
    • By tyrrell5953 15th Sep 16, 4:20 PM
    • 28 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    tyrrell5953
    • #7
    • 15th Sep 16, 4:20 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Sep 16, 4:20 PM
    Thank you. I appreciate your assistance. I'll send that off and let you know what comes back.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Sep 16, 5:16 PM
    • 36,492 Posts
    • 73,333 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 15th Sep 16, 5:16 PM
    • #8
    • 15th Sep 16, 5:16 PM
    As above, read the Sticky thread for NEWBIES and then send the BPA template in blue. Copy and paste, and send. No editing.

    Most likely it will be rejected so you then need to read the most recent successful PoPLA appeals (from the last three months) in the POPLA Decisions sticky thread.

    Misuse of disabled bays is exactly the reason why private parking companies exist. Please do not help them again in the future.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • tyrrell5953
    • By tyrrell5953 18th Oct 16, 6:05 PM
    • 28 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    tyrrell5953
    • #9
    • 18th Oct 16, 6:05 PM
    • #9
    • 18th Oct 16, 6:05 PM
    Hi Everyone,

    I have done some research on recent POPLA wins and cribbed a couple of points below.

    I was trying to find something about blue badges not being relevant on private land but couldn't find anything? Any advice here on what i could include if anything?

    Also thought about something under protections of freedoms in that i was neither the driver nor the keeper and they haven't identified either... any thoughts?

    All thoughts much appreciated. Plan is to send it off tomorrow as i think i am close to the 28 day period to appeal.

    Dear POPLA Assessor,

    POPLA Verification Code: xxxxxxxx

    I wish to appeal a recent parking charge issued by Park Watch Limited (Park Watch). I submit the points below to show that I am not liable for the parking charge. I would ask that all points be taken into consideration:

    No Authority

    Park Watch do not own this car park and are assumed to be merely agents for the owner or legal occupier. In their Notice and in the rejection letters, Park Watch have not provided me with any evidence that it is lawfully entitled to demand money from a driver or keeper, issue Parking Charge Notices and take legal action in their name for breach of contract since they do not own nor have any interest or assignment of title of the land in question.

    The car park had unclear, non-obvious, non-bpa-compliant signage leading to the driver not being aware that a parking contract was being offered at the time

    As a POPLA assessor has said previously in an adjudication
    “Once an Appellant submits that the terms of parking were not displayed clearly enough, the onus is then on the Operator to demonstrate that the signs at the time and location in question were sufficiently clear”.

    The parking company needs to prove that the driver actually saw, read and accepted the terms, which means that I and the POPLA adjudicator would be led to believe that a conscious decision was made by the driver to park in exchange for paying the extortionate fixed amount that Park Watch is now demanding, rather than simply the nominal amount presumably due in a machine on site.

    The alleged breach occurred during heavy rain on a cloudy, overcast evening and the signs were not visible (readable) or illuminated to be seen by any driver entering the car park at that time of the day; the car park itself was not illuminated as the public lighting was off. These are not mitigating circumstances but failure by Park Watch plus to ensure that their signs were to be seen accordingly. The BPA Code of Practice section 18, state that clear signage must be erected at each entrance and additional signage installed throughout the area.

    Furthermore, the landmark case of ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 establishes that a parking charge will only be valid where signage is clear and the driver therefore able to be fully aware of any charges. Park Watch did not provide me with evidence that such signs, if present, were available throughout the car park and visible, from the area where the car was parked at the time of the event.

    No Contract was entered into between Park Watch and the Driver or Registered keeper

    Although I was not the driver I would like to point out that the signs at the car park in question are unsuitable to inform drivers of the full terms and conditions of what they are entering into by physically entering the car park. Park Watch clearly relies on contract law, but does not do enough to make clear what the terms and conditions of the contract are, making it far too easy for people to unwittingly fall outside the terms of contract. It is not appropriate for a car park such as this to have such a limited amount of signs and rely on drivers to look carefully for where and how the terms are displayed.
    It is surely the responsibility of Park Watch Ltd to make the terms of their contract far clearer so that drivers have no doubt whatsoever of any supposed contract they may be entering into. I require Park Watch to provide evidence as to how clear the terms and conditions are and consider if the methods used are clear enough for this type of car park.

    Furthermore a contract can only be considered to be entered into if enough evidence exists that it actually happened. For a contract to have been entered into the driver would have had to get out of the car, read the signs, fully interpret and understand them and then agree to them. None of which ever actually happened.

    I request that Park Watch provide concrete evidence that a contract existed between themselves and the driver on the day in question, which meets all the legal requirements of forming a contract. They should include specific things including, agreement from both parties, clarity and certainty of terms etc. If they are not met then the contract would be deemed “unfair” under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999.


    Unreasonable / Unfair Terms

    The charge being claimed by the Operator is a punitive sum. According to the Office of Fair Trading ‘Guidance for the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999’ it “is unfair to impose disproportionate sanctions for breach of contract. A requirement to pay more in compensation for a breach than a reasonable pre-estimate of the loss caused to the supplier is one kind of excessive penalty. Such a requirement will, in any case, normally be void to the extent that it amounts to a penalty under English common law...''

    It is wholly unreasonable to attempt to profit by charging a disproportionate sum where no loss has been caused. The Appellant requests strict proof that the charge does not cause a significant imbalance to the Appellant’s detriment and to justify the Operators charge does not breach the UTCCRs and UCT Act.

    No actual loss was made by Park Watch

    There is no fee for using the car park. On the date of the claimed loss, the car park was not at 100% capacity and there was no physical damage caused. The Appellant therefore contends that Park Watch made no initial loss due to the parking of the vehicle on 10th September 2016 as alleged by Park Watch.

    No evidence to show who was the driver.

    Park Watch have not provided any evidence to show who was the driver. A disclosure and naming of a driver within an appeal lodged by a third party who was neither the driver, registered keeper or hirer cannot be held to be strict evidence. In order to pursue a driver for an unpaid charge, there must either be an admittance by the driver or some other form of independent evidence to substantiate the claim. Of course, if POFA 2012 is held not to be in force, the naming of the driver either by admission or otherwise, is irrelevant.

    If Park Watch disagree they are to provide the evidence to the contrary.!

    Yours faithfully
    Last edited by tyrrell5953; 18-10-2016 at 6:44 PM. Reason: removed popla code
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th Oct 16, 7:23 PM
    • 36,492 Posts
    • 73,333 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    That's a very poor effort at a PoPLA appeal.

    Information that the blue badge scheme does not apply on private land can be found in the booklet that comes with a BB and on the Blue Badge UK Gov website as well as the House of Commons library. This will do you no good though as PoPLA always ignore anything to do with the EA 2010, which does not apply in your case as you do not have protected characteristics covered by the Act.

    You need to number bullet point headings, and then number each separate point accordingly.

    You need to expand on signage by stating how they fail to meet the BPA CoP requirements.
    You need to explain why the NTK does not meet the requirements of the POFA 2012. For example, it was too late, or the wording does not meet the very precise requirements.
    GPEOL is dead post Beavis Supreme Curt decision.

    You should read the most recent successful appeals from the POPLA Decisions sticky thread and pick out all the parts that are relevant.
    Not the landowner, no standing to issue charges, inadequate signage, non-POFA complaint NTK at the vey least, all with detailed explanations as to why the PPC has failed to transfer keeper liability and failed the requirements of the BPA CoP.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 18-10-2016 at 7:25 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Oct 16, 12:21 PM
    • 40,629 Posts
    • 52,499 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    This point is ancient and not any use, as Fruitcake said:
    Unreasonable / Unfair Terms

    The charge being claimed by the Operator is a punitive sum. According to the Office of Fair Trading ‘Guidance for the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999’ it “is unfair to impose disproportionate sanctions for breach of contract. A requirement to pay more in compensation for a breach than a reasonable pre-estimate of the loss caused to the supplier is one kind of excessive penalty. Such a requirement will, in any case, normally be void to the extent that it amounts to a penalty under English common law...''

    It is wholly unreasonable to attempt to profit by charging a disproportionate sum where no loss has been caused. The Appellant requests strict proof that the charge does not cause a significant imbalance to the Appellant’s detriment and to justify the Operators charge does not breach the UTCCRs and UCT Act.
    Instead, chuck that draft in the bin and start again by going to 'POPLA Decisions' (top thread) and copying 4 or 5 of the template POPLA appeal points provided by myself and a couple of other posters, in September. Penultimate page of that thread. Copy them verbatim (deliberately creating a VERY long POPLA appeal) which will then be saved as a PDF - and you upload it under 'OTHER' on the POPLA website.

    You will find the POPLA code works for around 30+ days, so you probably have plenty of time. Don't rush to submit a half-baked old one!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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