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  • FIRST POST
    • gill33uk
    • By gill33uk 12th Sep 16, 11:29 AM
    • 15Posts
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    gill33uk
    Parking Eye - Appeal Process
    • #1
    • 12th Sep 16, 11:29 AM
    Parking Eye - Appeal Process 12th Sep 16 at 11:29 AM
    Hi, I have received a fine of £100 for a 10 minute stay in a carpark in Peterborough run by ParkingEye, after pulling into the carpark I realised I didn't have my purse, I text my husband who confirmed I had left it at home and I left the carpark, to return home, no point going shopping without money! I stated in my appeal that I had not left the car and explained what happened, they refused my appeal as they do not have CCTV only camera's on entry and exit so its my word against theirs that I never got out of the car, I would like to appeal again, is there any point?
    Many thanks
Page 1
    • oskiwowwow
    • By oskiwowwow 12th Sep 16, 11:35 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    oskiwowwow
    • #2
    • 12th Sep 16, 11:35 AM
    • #2
    • 12th Sep 16, 11:35 AM
    I'm not the expert here but the answer will certainly be YES! Do read the 'Newbies' thread carefully (because someone will tell you to). Also check several threads on here are about refusals of appeal by PE that were followed up and overturned/won.

    Good luck!
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 12th Sep 16, 11:36 AM
    • 5,561 Posts
    • 4,272 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #3
    • 12th Sep 16, 11:36 AM
    • #3
    • 12th Sep 16, 11:36 AM
    Whether you got out of the car or not is immaterial, you were parked on Private land. If your stay was indeed only 10 minutes, you are in the clear. You are allowed 11 minutes grace period to read the signs and decide whether to pay or leave. I assume you admitted that you were driving.
    Last edited by The Deep; 12-09-2016 at 12:10 PM.
    • gill33uk
    • By gill33uk 12th Sep 16, 11:48 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    gill33uk
    • #4
    • 12th Sep 16, 11:48 AM
    • #4
    • 12th Sep 16, 11:48 AM
    I arrived at 08:50:24 and left at 09:01:12 so that is just over...and yes I did on the first appeal
    Last edited by gill33uk; 12-09-2016 at 12:04 PM.
    • gill33uk
    • By gill33uk 12th Sep 16, 11:58 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    gill33uk
    • #5
    • 12th Sep 16, 11:58 AM
    • #5
    • 12th Sep 16, 11:58 AM
    Thank you I will.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 12th Sep 16, 12:29 PM
    • 1,068 Posts
    • 1,320 Thanks
    Castle
    • #6
    • 12th Sep 16, 12:29 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Sep 16, 12:29 PM
    Have they given you a POPLA code?
    • gill33uk
    • By gill33uk 12th Sep 16, 1:00 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    gill33uk
    • #7
    • 12th Sep 16, 1:00 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Sep 16, 1:00 PM
    Yes, came through at the weekend, wanted to do some research before I responded with a second appeal
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Sep 16, 11:31 PM
    • 40,525 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 12th Sep 16, 11:31 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Sep 16, 11:31 PM
    Yes, came through at the weekend, wanted to do some research before I responded with a second appeal
    Originally posted by gill33uk
    Good, because otherwise you WILL lose. Search 'ParkingEye POPLA Grace Periods'.

    Copy from those POPLA appeal examples you find from only 2016, no older, and show us your hybrid version cobbled together from recent ones.

    It is a huge shame people say who was driving and do not research this scam earlier. Happens far too often - shot.yourself.in.the.foot.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • gill33uk
    • By gill33uk 13th Sep 16, 10:28 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    gill33uk
    • #9
    • 13th Sep 16, 10:28 AM
    • #9
    • 13th Sep 16, 10:28 AM
    Any good or too long winded? thank you


    Dear Sir/Madam,
    Re: Parking Charge Reference number 122141/662188 Vehicle registration: AM05 DDD
    I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and have received the above demand from Parking Eye.
    My appeal to Parking Eye was rejected and they gave me POPLA code 6062506181

    The basis of my appeal is:
    1) The Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
    • This car park is Pay and Display. The most Parking Eye could claim is the amount required for that period of parking that my car was at the car park is £3:00 for a whole day. The entirety of the parking charge must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss in order to be enforceable. As the PCN sum is massively inflated over and above the amount of the parking fee, I require ParkingEye to submit a breakdown of how this sum was calculated prior to the parking event, as being capable of directly flowing from a minor alleged breach.
    • There is no loss flowing from this parking event because the car park was no-where near full.
    • Heads of cost such as normal operational costs and tax-deductible back office functions, debt collection, etc. cannot possibly flow as a direct consequence of this parking event. Parking Eye would have been in the same position had the parking charge notice not been issued, and would have had many of the same business overheads even if no vehicles breached any terms at all.
    • Given that ParkingEye charge the same lump sum for a 30 minute overstay as they would for 3 hours, and the same fixed charge applies to any alleged contravention (whether serious/damaging or trifling), it is clear there has been no regard paid to establishing that this charge is a genuine pre-estimate of loss caused by this incident in this car park.
    • ParkingEye cannot reasonably claim a broad percentage of their entire business running costs as they operate various different arrangements, some where they pay a landowner a huge amount akin to a ‘fishing licence’ to catch motorists and some arrangements where they have pay and display, and others which are free car parks.
    • The DfT Guidance and the BPA Code of Practice require that a parking charge for an alleged breach must be an estimate of losses flowing from the incident. ParkingEye cannot change this requirement so they have no option but to show POPLA their genuine pre-estimate of loss for this charge, not some subsequently penned ‘commercial justification’ statement they may have devised afterwards (since this would not be a pre-estimate):
    • The British Parking Association Code of Practice uses the word ‘MUST’:
      “19.5 If the parking charge that the driver is being asked to pay is for a breach of contract or act of trespass, this charge must be based on the genuine pre-estimate of loss that you suffer.”

      1) The ANPR system is unreliable and neither synchronised nor accurate
      ParkingEye’s ANPR records show no parking time, merely photos of my car driving in and out. It is unreasonable for this operator to record the start of ‘parking time’ as the moment of arrival in moving traffic if they in fact offer a pay and display system which the driver can only access after parking and which is when the clock in fact starts. The exit photo is not evidence of ‘parking time’ at all and has not been shown to be synchronised to the pay and display machine clock nor even to relate to the same parking event that morning.
      My arrival time is recorded at 08:50:24 and Departure Time: 09:01.12 which equates to 10:48 minutes and does not include time that it would have taken to park and purchase a ticket. I had forgotten my purse so after frantically searching, texting home, I left, as stated before there was no point parking up as I had no money to go shopping.
      This Operator is obliged to ensure their ANPR equipment is maintained as described in paragraph 21.3 of the BPA Code of Practice and to have signs stating how the data will be stored/used. I say that Parking Eye have failed to clearly inform drivers about the cameras and what the data will be used for and how it will be used and stored. If there was such a sign at all then it was not prominent, since the driver did not see it. I have also seen no evidence that they have complied with the other requirements in that section of the code in terms of ANPR logs and maintenance and I put this Operator to strict proof of full ANPR compliance.
      In addition I question the entire reliability of the system. I require that ParkingEye present records as to the dates and times of when the cameras at this car park were checked, adjusted, calibrated, synchronised with the timer which stamps the photos and generally maintained to ensure the accuracy of the dates and times of any ANPR images. This is important because the entirety of the charge is founded on two images purporting to show my vehicle entering and exiting at specific times. It is vital that this Operator must produce evidence in response and explain to POPLA how their system differs (if at all) from the flawed ANPR system which was wholly responsible for the court loss recently in ParkingEye v Fox-Jones on 8 Nov 2013. That case was dismissed when the judge said the evidence from ParkingEye was fundamentally flawed because the synchronisation of the camera pictures with the timer had been called into question and the operator could not rebut the point.
      So, in addition to showing their maintenance records, I require ParkingEye to show evidence to rebut the following assertion. I suggest that in the case of my vehicle being in this car park, a local camera took the image but a remote server added the time stamp. As the two are disconnected by the internet and do not have a common “time synchronisation system”, there is no proof that the time stamp added is actually the exact time of the image. The operator appears to use WIFI which introduces a delay through buffering, so “live” is not really “live”. Hence without a synchronised time stamp there is no evidence that the image is ever time stamped with an accurate time. Therefore I contend that this ANPR “evidence” from the cameras in this car park is just as unreliable and unsynchronised as the evidence in the Fox-Jones case. As their whole charge rests upon two timed photos, I put ParkingEye to strict proof to the contrary and to show how these camera timings are synchronised with the pay and display machine.
      Conclusion
      I contend it is wholly unreasonable attempt to profit by charging a disproportionate sum where no loss has been caused by a car that only stayed in the Carpark for 10 minutes and 48 seconds due to the fact my purse had been left at home, time spent in the carpark was spent looking for my purse and texting home to establish its whereabouts and that the bays were not full. I put Parking Eye to strict proof to justify that their charge, under the circumstances described.
      I therefore respectfully request that my appeal is upheld and the charge is dismissed.
      Yours sincerely,
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Sep 16, 2:05 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    The Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
    That worries me that it was copied from an old POPLA template; 'no loss'' should never feature.

    Have another look for newer POPLA wins in the POPLA Decisions thread and read other ParkingEye POPAL appeals being written, there's one being put together tonight on page one right now for example (no link, it's easy to find if you skim-read the threads or do a search of keywords).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 14-09-2016 at 1:31 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • gill33uk
    • By gill33uk 17th Oct 16, 11:02 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    gill33uk
    Hi, have received my chance to appeal notification from popla, this is my response, not cut and pasted as before, any advice please before I press reply??




    Thank you for your notification and the chance to put my appeal across now that the information has been received from ParkingEye.


    07/08/2016 Date of Event


    I arrived at the Car Park at 08:50:24 on this day, after frantically searching for my purse I realised that I had left it at home, I text my husband who after searching at home confirmed that this was the case so at 09:01:12 I left the car park without purchasing a ticket as I had no cash or cards with me.


    In their (ParkingEye) submission of ‘Further Evidence’ it states;


    ‘ParkingEye operates a grace period on all sites, which gives the motorist time to enter a car park, park, and establish whether or not they wish to be bound by the terms and conditions of parking. These grace periods are sufficient for this purpose and are fully compliant with the BPA code of practice’


    I would like establish what ParkingEye’s ‘Grace Period’ is? On their Contract, added below in the form of the signage it does not actually give an allotted timeframe andI feel that 10 minutes would not breach this, I have timed myself reading this sign, which we are advised to do, and it took me 4 minutes to read, so parking, walking to the ‘Contract’ reading it and then purchasing a ticket, all takes a little time. I have also read on Martin Lewis Money Saving website that a 10 minute leeway has been granted to motorists when tickets run in Council run car parks so would hope that this could also apply to privately run car parks.


    Have removed this for this purpose
    On the British Parking Associations Guide under Section 13, Grace Period it states: AGAIN Deleted due to size


    deleted to BPA conditions


    Again it does not state what is reasonable but I would argue that 10 minutes is reasonable.


    I had every intentions of paying and displaying but without money or cards I was unable to purchase a ticket and so there was no point me heading into to town. I would also like to say that due to the location of the car park it would not have been possible for me to have walked to any shops in the 10 minutes, so I was not using the car park for the convenience of popping into a shop without paying.


    Location Map is also attached. It shows that it is approximately a 7 minute walk each way to the shops so I would not have been able to get there and back in the 10 minutes I was in the car park.
    • gill33uk
    • By gill33uk 17th Oct 16, 11:13 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    gill33uk
    have had to shorten a bit do to text length and links being included
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Oct 16, 12:19 PM
    • 40,525 Posts
    • 52,410 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Don't call it 'appeal' - this is not a chance to appeal. This is you commenting on the evidence.

    Don't mention 'Martin Lewis Money Saving website' either.

    What was the wording of your appeal in the end? Hope you kept a copy?
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • gill33uk
    • By gill33uk 17th Oct 16, 12:40 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    gill33uk
    Thank you, I just kept it very simple in the end, probably too naive, just was honest in the fact that I pulled in realised I had forgotten my purse, called home and left once confirmed whereabouts of my purse was. Too simple I expect.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 17th Oct 16, 12:59 PM
    • 5,561 Posts
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    The Deep
    Not too simple for a judge, who would no doubt find for you.

    However, before it gets to court there will be threats, more threats, dire warnings, misinformation, and downright lies, from the company, debt collectors, solicitors acting as debt collectors, solicitors, and solicitors acting as solicitors.

    Ignore all but the latter, attend court, and tell it like it was. The shining sword of truth shall defeat the forces of darkness.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Oct 16, 1:08 PM
    • 40,525 Posts
    • 52,410 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Thank you, I just kept it very simple in the end, probably too naive, just was honest in the fact that I pulled in realised I had forgotten my purse, called home and left once confirmed whereabouts of my purse was. Too simple I expect.
    Originally posted by gill33uk
    Oh.dear...that is not a POPLA appeal. Even the POPLA website tells you that POPLA do not consider mitigating circs. Oh.dear.

    ParkingEye sue people who lose at POPLA.

    I hope you can claw it back by quoting the BPA CoP Grace periods now, go and grab them from the BPA Code of Practrice (Google it) and quote them and point out to POPLA they are breached here. Do not call it an 'appeal' anywhere.

    Have you tried complaining to the Store Managers? Do so urgently as you are about to lose this, in all likelihood. But Store Managers can cancel.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 17th Oct 16, 1:21 PM
    • 5,561 Posts
    • 4,272 Thanks
    The Deep
    You are being a bit alarmist CM. Even if she loses at PoPLA it is surely no big deal, they are heavily compromised and Judges are more than often sympathetic to what happened.


    PE would be daft imo to try court.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Oct 16, 1:23 PM
    • 40,525 Posts
    • 52,410 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    But they will. Not alarmist, a realist...
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • gill33uk
    • By gill33uk 17th Oct 16, 1:47 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    gill33uk
    Thanks both, have quoted what BDP say about Grace periods, am hoping that because the time specified is reasonable then I may be ok, or at the mercy of the Judges good nature! lol


    Worth a try, is it too late to appeal to the car park owners? I thought it was after appeal? (not using that word though!!)
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 17th Oct 16, 2:09 PM
    • 2,248 Posts
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    Ralph-y
    "is it too late to appeal to the car park owners?"

    NO

    this should have all ready been done ..... what was the car park ? retail? supermarket? hospital? ........

    Ralph
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