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  • FIRST POST
    • xyzperson
    • By xyzperson 1st Sep 16, 6:14 PM
    • 21Posts
    • 9Thanks
    xyzperson
    Leasehold Flat Parking Permit
    • #1
    • 1st Sep 16, 6:14 PM
    Leasehold Flat Parking Permit 1st Sep 16 at 6:14 PM
    We have a leasehold flat with two parking spaces which are identified at the Land Registry. Our lease says we may park one car on each space. Our management company with the managing agent and with a parking enforcement company introduced a permit system two years ago. I objected unsuccessfully. They are now making further changes. They say they will only give us one permit for each space. We have six family cars which park from time to time in either space. Moving a permit between cars is unworkable and I anticipate receiving parking fines. Can anyone recommend what would be the best thing to do?
    In the past they allowed us to register the family cars with them and then they did not ticket any of these cars when they were parked in our spaces. The parking company has a poor record on these pages! Any ideas?
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 1st Sep 16, 6:32 PM
    • 36,455 Posts
    • 73,278 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 1st Sep 16, 6:32 PM
    • #2
    • 1st Sep 16, 6:32 PM
    Your lease will trump anything brought in afterwards. You do not have to join the permit scheme, and can withdraw from one of you are already in it.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • xyzperson
    • By xyzperson 1st Sep 16, 7:31 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    xyzperson
    • #3
    • 1st Sep 16, 7:31 PM
    • #3
    • 1st Sep 16, 7:31 PM
    I am slightly frightened of being targeted if it becomes known that we have withdrawn. We have had problems in the past and would not like it to become known that we are not a part of the scheme. The spaces are in a large carpark - and we might have problems ourselves if others park in our spaces.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Sep 16, 7:37 PM
    • 40,460 Posts
    • 52,360 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 1st Sep 16, 7:37 PM
    • #4
    • 1st Sep 16, 7:37 PM
    You will have worse problems when you start getting spurious PCNs, you and your visitors, and are then sued.

    We have people here trying to defend FOUR FIGURE county court claims for multiple unfair PCNs that the managing agents refuse to cancel, due to heinous 'crimes' like displaying a blue permit when the PPC has decided to suddenly and pointlessly change them to 'new' yellow versions (for example) over a weekend, and never issued the new ones in time. Or a permit slipping a bit on the dash.

    You MUST object to the agent now, telling them your issue and that you will hold them liable for any PCNs causing you loss.

    Whether you join the scheme or not, your cars are going to get PCNs aren't they? I'd move out (seriously). This is a huge threat on your family finances.

    Which deadful PPC have they let loose among your cars?

    I would report this issue to Watchdog, they are likely to be running a new series from next month. So many other people are in the same boat and being sued and this is WRONG. Your MP is worth consulting too, this is so wrong.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 01-09-2016 at 7:40 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 1st Sep 16, 8:59 PM
    • 36,455 Posts
    • 73,278 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #5
    • 1st Sep 16, 8:59 PM
    • #5
    • 1st Sep 16, 8:59 PM
    I am slightly frightened of being targeted if it becomes known that we have withdrawn. We have had problems in the past and would not like it to become known that we are not a part of the scheme. The spaces are in a large carpark - and we might have problems ourselves if others park in our spaces.
    Originally posted by xyzperson
    Have a look at this.

    http://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/milton-keynes-woman-secures-landmark-victory-for-flat-tenants-in-parking-dispute-1-7459066

    There was a clause in this woman's lease that meant the parking scumpany had no right to issue charges against her.
    The lease trumped the MA and their sub-contractor's rules. Your case will probably be no different. More people need to complain and withdraw from these unfair schemes that are imposed after they have agreed to their lease.

    I would quote this case to the MA and their scammers quoting the relevant part of your lease that scuppers them, pointing out that both the MA and the scammers will be liable should this go to court, so you will need the MA to provide you with dates they will be able to appear in court.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 01-09-2016 at 9:01 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • xyzperson
    • By xyzperson 5th Sep 16, 4:55 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    xyzperson
    • #6
    • 5th Sep 16, 4:55 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Sep 16, 4:55 PM
    My agent is Rendall and Rittner. The parking enforcement company is Care Parking. Does anyone have any experience with them?
    And has anyone successfully removed their car parking space from the "system" and did it lead to problems?
    Thanks. You experiences would be most welcome.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 5th Sep 16, 4:59 PM
    • 978 Posts
    • 1,717 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #7
    • 5th Sep 16, 4:59 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Sep 16, 4:59 PM
    Have a look at this. A hearing will cost £200 but if a few of you get together, you may be able to see them off - Rendall and Care.

    https://www.gov.uk/courts-tribunals/first-tier-tribunal-property-chamber

    Managing Agents have a worse reputation than Estate agents. Adding parking companies into the mix means you have to bring a dose of reality to the situation. See how many others are having problems and get together.

    Leasehold Advisory Service are a good source of information too.
    Last edited by IamEmanresu; 05-09-2016 at 5:01 PM.
    General Election coming up? Your MP worried about his/her job? Give them something to do and get them to sort out these parking cowboys. Search "Theyworkforyou" for the name of your MP.
    • xyzperson
    • By xyzperson 5th Sep 16, 5:12 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    xyzperson
    • #8
    • 5th Sep 16, 5:12 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Sep 16, 5:12 PM
    That is really helpful. I did not know that either existed!
    My problem will not go away anytime soon - but I will keep this thread informed about progress.
    Any more advice or information will be gratefully accepted.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 5th Sep 16, 5:55 PM
    • 5,561 Posts
    • 4,271 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #9
    • 5th Sep 16, 5:55 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Sep 16, 5:55 PM
    Send a copy of the MK lady's case to the MA, also this one

    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKPC-liable-for-trespass-**SUCCESS**

    PPCs are on very dodgy ground when they try to harass residents in "own space" events. Have you raised this with rhe Residents' Association or at the A.G.M.?

    WRT changing the MA, it is difficult, takes a long time, and is expensive, especially if several block of flats are involved. We tried in once in a block of flats where I have a property. The MA, who were also the Landlords, opposed it and we had to give up due to escalating costs. You have to get all the leaseholders on board, and I for one was reasonably content with the MA.
    Last edited by The Deep; 05-09-2016 at 6:19 PM.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 5th Sep 16, 7:46 PM
    • 2,946 Posts
    • 3,941 Thanks
    Half_way
    With regards to the management agency who took on the parking company, you need to hammer home to the MA that they, as principal are severally and jointly liable for the actions of their agents this means that they ( the management agency) could be liable for your costs/expenses and any other costs as mentioned in the above / attached articles.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • xyzperson
    • By xyzperson 5th Oct 16, 5:28 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    xyzperson
    My MA is not playing ball and is introducing their new permit system on 15 October. My lease says:-

    Covenants enforceable by the Landlord and the Management Company

    20. To comply with and make every endeavour to ensure that all persons living in or visiting the Flat or using the Parking Space or any part of the Maintained Property shall comply with all such regulations as the Management Company shall from time to time make for the preservation of the amenities of the Development or for the general convenience of the Owners and occupiers of the flats (The Management Company having the power to vary or add to such regulations from time to time as it thinks fit).

    My car parking space is my property, shown edged red on a plan and is shown in the lease as the surface of it. It is not a part of the maintained property.

    Do you think I can tell them I do not want to be a part of the permit system? Or am I obliged to be a part of their rules?
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 5th Oct 16, 6:22 PM
    • 2,946 Posts
    • 3,941 Thanks
    Half_way
    Having a PPC infest the land is hardly a convenience, in fact its quite the opposite
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 5th Oct 16, 6:49 PM
    • 3,094 Posts
    • 4,385 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    Demand to know in what way the scheme works "for the preservation of the amenities of the Development or for the general convenience of the Owners and occupiers of the flats" (doesn't seem very "convenient" to me). And also demand to know where in the lease it states that failure to comply with any such regulations results in having to pay a third party company some arbitrary sum of money.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 5th Oct 16, 6:50 PM
    • 5,561 Posts
    • 4,271 Thanks
    The Deep
    The purpose of a PPC appointed by a Management Agents is to prevent rogue parking. It cannot be to harass and interfere with the owners' quiet enjoyment of their property.

    Send them a cease and desist letter, withdraw from the scheme, and warn them that any further trespass on your land will result in a civil action. You are in the driving seat here.
    • xyzperson
    • By xyzperson 6th Oct 16, 4:45 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    xyzperson
    Thanks for these helpful posts. I am about to send a gentle letter to the MA - and hope - I should prefer to sort this out amicably - but I will be using your ideas. Thanks again
    • xyzperson
    • By xyzperson 13th Oct 16, 9:49 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    xyzperson
    The reply from the MA was not helpful. I am thinking of sending the MA and the care parking company this. Any comments would be helpful:-

    We require an undertaking not to trespass on our land and not to place tickets on our cars. We have registered title to the parking plots. We do not have you any access to our spaces without our written permission. You also have our car numbers.
    If you refuse to give an undertaking and enter our land and / or place a notice on our cars then we will issue county court proceedings claiming damages for trespass. We will seek to recover our legal costs from you if this becomes necessary.
    Many thanks for reading this.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 13th Oct 16, 10:30 AM
    • 3,094 Posts
    • 4,385 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    The reply from the MA was not helpful.
    Originally posted by xyzperson
    What did you say to them?
    What did they say to you?
    Without knowing both (in detail, not a vague summary), then it's hard to recommend what the next step should be.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Oct 16, 11:11 AM
    • 5,561 Posts
    • 4,271 Thanks
    The Deep
    You might wish to draw their attention to Davey v UKPC.


    Head the letter "Cease and Desist"
    • xyzperson
    • By xyzperson 13th Oct 16, 4:47 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    xyzperson
    Here is some more information which may help - I did not want to deluge you with it.
    The reply I got was in reply to questions I raised.
    1. I asked for a copy of the contact between the MA and the parking co. The reply said:- The contract is in place between MA and Parking Co, this is not typically an item we would give out for any contractors put in place. If you can confirm what you wold like clarification on from the contract I can obtain that for you.
    2. I requested a copy of the legal advice they had taken when they first put the process in place. I had mention that it existed in 14.08.14. The reply said:-
    I can confirm that this was reviewed by the solicitors instructed on this site and it was confirmed that tickets issued are enforceable and this does not breach the terms of your lease. Parking enforcement is common place in both the majority of MA's sites and generally in apartment blocks in the UK.
    My note: The advice was before the Davey case - and obviously I have no idea what was requested or what was said.
    3. We previously had a workable solution made with the then member of staff who has now left. In reply to a point about the changes they say are:-
    As previously advised the arrangement that you had previously discussed with two members of staff at the MA are not the terms of the parking enforcement currently in place. Your Board have confirmed the regulations of the parking patrols, this is confirmed in the attached, which are now in place regardless of what was previously discussed.
    4. A general point:-
    As advised to you already the new site regulations are noted on the attached and will be enforced from the 15th October 2016. I appreciate you would like this to be amended but it has been agreed with the The Management Company Ltd. and this will not be changed. The site regulations for parking enforcement are clear and we will not be amended these to your preference
    5. Their letter said:-
    Following a review of the parking enforcement system we would like to remind all

    residents of the rules and regulations for vehicles onsite. Please find below in a bullet

    point format:

     It is for landlords to ensure they renew their permits on an annual basis

     For each bay there will be a permit and a visitor permit provided, one car can be

    registered against each permit

     There will be no more than two permits issued per bay

     If you fail to register a vehicle against your permit, and if do not have your permit

    clearly on display a ticket will be issued

    o The onsite caretaker has permit holders available for residents if required

     If you wish to appeal the ticket you will have to contact Care Parking directly,

    neither MA nor the onsite caretaker will be involved in the

    appeals process

     If you lose your permit a new permit can be purchased at a cost of £10 from Parking company

    We can confirm that the patrols will re-commence on 15 th October 2016, the patrols

    will usually be taking place early morning, afternoon and late evening. To prevent any

    tickets being issued please ensure that you have your valid permit on display in your

    vehicle by the 15 th October 2016.

    Thank you in advance of your co-operation.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 13th Oct 16, 6:50 PM
    • 978 Posts
    • 1,717 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    1. I asked for a copy of the contact between the MA and the parking co. The reply said:- The contract is in place between MA and Parking Co, this is not typically an item we would give out for any contractors put in place
    Send a "S.20 Landlord and Tenant Act 1985" notice to the Agent asking for details of the "Long Term Service Contract" they have made with the parking company. They have 21 days to reply.

    A "Long Term Service Contract" is defined in law as contracts for services that last for more than one year and cost any one leaseholder in a block more than £100 per year. At the same time, ask for the Managing Agents own contract as that falls within the definition too.

    Ask them also for the details of the results of the consultation undertaken under the Act.
    General Election coming up? Your MP worried about his/her job? Give them something to do and get them to sort out these parking cowboys. Search "Theyworkforyou" for the name of your MP.
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