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  • FIRST POST
    • Keezy
    • By Keezy 31st Aug 16, 7:18 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Keezy
    ES Spinningfields Manchester County Court Papers
    • #1
    • 31st Aug 16, 7:18 PM
    ES Spinningfields Manchester County Court Papers 31st Aug 16 at 7:18 PM
    h ttp://imgur.com/a/PI0rt

    Hello to everybody reading this, firstly quick tip to new comers, save as you write (second time writing this). I have been reading through threads on this site for quite a while and have come across some great advice which has helped me in the past. I have had a few "Parking Charge Notice's" from Private Parking Companies in recent years and followed some advice, for example I appealed one, appeal was rejected and haven't heard anyone since.

    Recently I have had a "Parking Charge Notice" in the Spinningfields Estate Manchester from ES Parking Enforcement LTD. I naturally researched threads and other sites but couldn't find a case similar to mine, forcing me to create a profile and seek some much needed advice and hopefully use it to help others in the future.

    I noticed there has been a few incidents in the same area. Like the other cases, on arrival there is nothing to notify you that it is a private road (I only found out after reading a thread). At the time I stopped behind a few other parked cars just at the end of some yellow lines, with little/no signage that I have seen, so was parked perfectly legal in my mind. I think unrelated to this, there was a construction site quite far at the end of the road with a sign saying do not park in front of the site, which I presume is for that private area specifically as the rest of the road looked public.

    About a week later I received a "PCN" from ES Parking Enforcement LTD for "Stopping/Parking in an area where stopping is prohibited. After researching the other threads and cases I ignored the letter as it seemed like a clear and genuine scam (and still does) as it was perfectly legal in my mind. As expected I received a second letter increasing the charge from £100 to £125 for some illogical reason. Again I ignored this but then received a letter from Gladstone solicitors and before I was able to seek advice I received county court papers. The papers include two sections to send back: Either accept and pay or dispute and build a defence.

    The difference in my case is that I am not the registered keeper of the vehicle, it belongs to a relative and therefore all the letters are in their name. I am looking for advice as to how I should approach the court papers. Should I just state, on behalf of my relative who is the registered keeper, that "it wasn't me" and just wait for a reply, or would that look bad ? The court may think I should have informed the company before but I genuinely thought it was a scam and didn't want to contact them as from my relatives point of view they were never in the area. Or should I provide my details (the driver) in the defence also?

    Other things to point out on the PCN is that there is an incident time but not duration and the photo is of my licence plate but showing no evidence of where I was parked or if I was even stationary. It could have been taken when I was parked somewhere legally for all I know.

    Like I said the road is just off a main road and looks completely public with no clear signs, it is clearly a set up to scam people. I will go back on the weekend to take photos.

    I would greatly appreciate any help or advice anyone could give, I have to post the court reply on Monday. Sorry if this is too long and please let me know if I have missed out something, it's my first time. I have tried to attach some photos of some letters, again I would be grateful for any help.

    [IMG]h ttp://imgur.com/a/PI0rt[/IMG]
    Last edited by Keezy; 31-08-2016 at 11:37 PM.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 31st Aug 16, 7:20 PM
    • 12,030 Posts
    • 14,200 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 31st Aug 16, 7:20 PM
    • #2
    • 31st Aug 16, 7:20 PM
    please edit the above post with a few carriage returns (new paragraphs) , then we can actually read it and respond (no idea why people dont write these things properly any more ?)

    ie:- put some white space between the paragraphs and keep them fairly short , like you see in this reply
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st Aug 16, 8:39 PM
    • 38,399 Posts
    • 49,839 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 31st Aug 16, 8:39 PM
    • #3
    • 31st Aug 16, 8:39 PM
    Would it not have been easier to read this one, or the others just like it?

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5516829

    or this one:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5472582

    The difference in my case is that I am not the registered keeper of the vehicle, it belongs to a relative and therefore all the letters are in their name. I am looking for advice as to how I should approach the court papers. Should I just state, on behalf of my relative who is the registered keeper, that "it wasn't me" and just wait for a reply, or would that look bad ?
    Not only would it look bad but they would lose.

    Or should I provide my details (the driver) in the defence also?
    No. It's not your defence, can't be done in your name and must be defended by the Defendant as named in the papers. It is too late to name the driver. Please just read recent defences on here and on pepipoo forum:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=60

    ...there are loads.

    DO NOT respond, if any poster with less than 1000 posts on either forum, sends you a pm (private message) offering to 'help' with the defence off-forum. People with few posts could be anyone, and not acting in your best interests/could even be from the dark side! So, to get help you will need to keep updating this thread and we'll all chip in.

    HTH
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 31-08-2016 at 8:43 PM.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Redx
    • By Redx 31st Aug 16, 10:30 PM
    • 12,030 Posts
    • 14,200 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 31st Aug 16, 10:30 PM
    • #4
    • 31st Aug 16, 10:30 PM
    well known sc@m and been in the mcr evening news

    see these threads

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5513773

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5516829

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5505541

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5465811

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5453462

    plenty more of those if you search
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Keezy
    • By Keezy 1st Sep 16, 5:20 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Keezy
    • #5
    • 1st Sep 16, 5:20 PM
    • #5
    • 1st Sep 16, 5:20 PM
    Thanks for the help so far, I have been and still am looking through the recommended threads. Just at the stage of going online to "acknowledge the service" and realised the surname is spelt wrong, long shot but is that worth referring to before acknowledging?!

    Also just as advised in the threads you guys provided, I'm working on the defence almost identically to the other cases about poor signage and unclear that it's private, clearly a predatory tactic etc, but still reading through.

    Thanks for telling me it's too late to name the driver but I noticed that I obviously shouldn't lie to the court, so should the registered keeper (who I'm doing this on behalf of, it was me that parked and they are unable to at this time anyway) at any point say that they were not driving? Or should they build the defence as if they were driving ? Just because if it comes to the hearing I imagine it would be difficult to convey?

    Really grateful for the help and will keep you informed as I go along.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 1st Sep 16, 5:25 PM
    • 12,030 Posts
    • 14,200 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 1st Sep 16, 5:25 PM
    • #6
    • 1st Sep 16, 5:25 PM
    they are the person named on the court papers so they (not you) should be dealing with this, even if you are helping them

    ie:- THEY will be the person in court, in front of a judge (if it goes that far) , not you

    their defence will be that they were not driving , that the keeper is not liable , that the PPC failed POFA2012 signage issues , no locus standii , CoP issues etc

    not sure if the surname is an issue so wait for replies to that question
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Keezy
    • By Keezy 1st Sep 16, 5:54 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Keezy
    • #7
    • 1st Sep 16, 5:54 PM
    • #7
    • 1st Sep 16, 5:54 PM
    Ah, I understand, it's just they're unable to deal with it right now, so I'll be helping until (if) it goes to court. If it does go that far, I'm still searching whether or not I would be able to go and speak with the keeper as the named driver.

    Thanks for the points, I just quickly read through the POFA2012 and it seems that around para 9, it states that the creditor PPC have a right to peruse the charge from the keeper (as I ignored the letters and didn't tell them the driver details), so isn't the POFA2012 in the PPC's favour ?

    Also apologies for my ignorance but what is CoP ?

    Yes, I'll wait to see if anyone replies tonight, if not I'll just go through with it.

    Thanks again for the reply.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 1st Sep 16, 6:10 PM
    • 12,030 Posts
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    Redx
    • #8
    • 1st Sep 16, 6:10 PM
    • #8
    • 1st Sep 16, 6:10 PM
    frankly , because you are not the person who has the papers I find your accounts and questions confusing to say the very least

    I would advise you to get the person named on the paperwork to come here and be advised directly

    CoP is Code Of Practice , the BPA has one , the IPC has a different one

    the NEWBIES sticky thread has a list of acronyms in post #2

    I doubt that ES Parking have followed POFA2012 and as an IPC member they work on the basis that the keeper and driver are one and the same

    get all your ducks in a row before asking for more help because at the moment you are confusing everybody which wont help the person named on the papers

    the letters went to the keeper , not you , so YOU did not ignore anything at all , the KEEPER did
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Keezy
    • By Keezy 1st Sep 16, 6:39 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Keezy
    • #9
    • 1st Sep 16, 6:39 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Sep 16, 6:39 PM
    Sorry for any confusion caused to anybody. I do have all the papers, I'm not asking for two separate sets of advice, I'm just informing you fully (maybe poorly) of the situation, in order to carry out the correct procedure and best solution. I would prefer to just have the papers put in my name, but as advised it is too late to change that.

    Basically, kindly advise me as if I were the person named on the papers. Therefore, right now I'm building the defence on the fact that I was not the driver, ES may not have been acting in accordance of POTA2012 and the clear inadequate signage etc.

    (Thanks, yes I see your point, in the letter they sent, which I attached the link for, they word the letter to the driver, seemingly as you said treating the driver and keeper as the same and they only mention that "if you were not the registered keeper at the time let us know".)

    I hope I have cleared some confusion
    • Redx
    • By Redx 1st Sep 16, 6:45 PM
    • 12,030 Posts
    • 14,200 Thanks
    Redx
    once the court claim has started you cannot deflect this from the keeper by naming the driver, whereas the keeper could have named the driver prior to the MCOL being issued

    the keeper named on the papers MUST defend this, even if helped by a lay representative such as yourself

    you keep mentioning I , as in I ignored the letters, but they werent in your name , so the keeper ignored the letters , the keeper received gladstones paperwork , the keeper has their details on the court papers etc

    yes you can help, but the keeper has to do this as an adult, unless you have power of attorney or something similar ?

    I know you want to help and feel responsible , but you are not named on this paperwork , so help yes , but forget this I business , please !!!
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Sep 16, 6:55 PM
    • 38,399 Posts
    • 49,839 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    As long as you've done the AOS online in their name, that then gets 'them' a bit longer - 28 days from the court papers arriving, to build a defence with your help. This will be a fairly 'easy' task of copy/pasting, based on your reading of lots of other cases and defences exactly like it recently.

    That will not be the end of it - there is more paperwork coming their way - and they WILL have to attend any hearing, although you can accompany them as a McKenzie friend (Google it). The claim will be allocated to the court nearest the Defendant's home.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 01-09-2016 at 7:00 PM.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Keezy
    • By Keezy 22nd Sep 16, 4:39 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Keezy
    I've managed to put together some sort of defence, please (if anyone has time) read and critique it. I'd appreciate if anyone can tell me if I've missed anything out wh oh may help. Thanks.



    1. The Defendant completely denies any liability to the Claimant.

    2. The Claimant has not complied with proper pre-court protocol. The Particulars of Claim contains no detail and fails to establish a cause of action which would enable the Defendant to prepare a specific defence. The Claim states “parking charges” which does not clearly indicate the basis on which the Claim is brought. There is no information regarding why the charge arose, what the original charge was, what the alleged contract was nor anything which could be considered a fair exchange of information. The Defendant therefore asks that the court orders the case to be struck out for want of a detailed course of action.

    3. It is admitted that the Defendant is the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. However the Defendant was not the driver of the vehicle on the dates in question.

    If the Claimant is intending to pursue this claim against the Defendant on the basis that the Defendant is the registered keeper then the Claimant has failed to show that the conditions for recovering this charge under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 have been met. The Defendant disputes that any of the conditions necessary for a claim to be pursued against the keeper of the vehicle have been met.

    3.a) No evidence has been provided to show a valid Notice to Driver was given to the driver in accordance with Paragraph 7, Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    3.b) Where a Notice to Driver was given no evidence has been provided to show that a valid Notice to Keeper was served in accordance with Paragraph 8, Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    3.c) Where no Notice to Driver was given no evidence has been provided to show that a valid Notice to Keeper was served in accordance with Paragraph 9, Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    3.d) No evidence has been provided to show that the Creditor has made a valid application for keepers details in accordance with Paragraph 11, Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.


    4. It is believed that the Claimant has no standing to bring this claim. The proper Claimant is the landowner. They have failed to establish their legal right to bring a claim either as the landholder or the agent of the landholder. Strict proof is required that there is a chain of contracts leading from the landowner to ES Parking Enforcement Ltd. The Defendant claims that the Claimant does not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name and that they have no locus standi to bring this case.


    5. The signage at the location is poor. The Claimant did not display clear signs within the site that were capable of being read and/or form a contract. There is no signage at the entrance of the street to indicate the area is private. There are no prominent signs to indicate "no stopping/parking" to drivers. Other signs are raised high up on the "public" footpath facing away from the road with small text difficult/impossible to read at night.

    The signage did not meet the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice or the Independent Parking Committee (IPC) Code of Practice. The Claimant was a member of the IPC, whose requirements they also did not follow. Therefore no contract has been formed with driver and the notices do not provide the 'adequate notice' of the parking charge which is mandatory under Schedule 4 of the POFA. No sum payable to this Claimant could have been accepted, or even known about by any driver, as they would not have been given a fair opportunity to discover the onerous terms by which they would later be bound.

    5.a) Furthermore the lack of signage to indicate private land and the inadequate signage on the road in question indicate illegal predatory tactics. The road in question has yellow lines, imitating the surrounding public roads with a small space with no lines enough for 3/4 cars and no clear signage directly in this part of the road.

    6. The Defendant also disputes that the Claimant has incurred £50 solicitor cost. The Particulars of Claim are incompetent in disclosing no cause of action.

    7. Even if a contract had been formed it would be void. The Claimant was not acting in good faith and was in breach of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999.

    7.a) The Claimant might argue that the Supreme Court’s decision is Parking Eye v. Beavis is applicable. The Defendant will argue that the present case meets none of the conditions that the Supreme Court stated were required for a parking notice to be exempt from the well-established principle that penalty charges cannot be recovered.

    The main difference is that the Supreme Court determined that, in a retail park, there was a commercial interest in ensuring a turnover of visitors that justified a disincentive to overstay. On the contrary, the ruling in the Court of Appeal, which was not overturned by the Supreme Court, is that the "Penalty Rule" remains engaged unless a compelling commerical justification can be shown. I submit that this site cannot have the same commercial justification and therefore the penalty rule remains in force. In addition the signage fails to import the core price term into the contract, as unlike in Beavis where the penalty sum required was in "unusually prominent" lettering, the signage in this case is poor and as such cannot be held to have been imported into any alleged contract.There is clearly no such interest in a third party attempting to impose conditions in this area where there is parking available in several immediate areas and no turnover of visitors. It is denied that any contract existed here and in any case, Mr Beavis was the driver and this is not the case here.


    8. The Defendant invites the court to strike out the claim as having no prospect of success.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 22nd Sep 16, 8:41 AM
    • 823 Posts
    • 1,431 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    You've covered signs, contracts, chain of authority/standing, POFA and CPR, and not the driver. Seems all bases covered
    "One thing you realise about the gangs and the criminals [and parking companies] is that it's acting by another means. If you go into a bank or a shop and you want them to believe that you're going to shoot them [or go to court], that's an acting exercise. Nine out of 10 delinquents [and their solicitors] are frustrated actors". Peter Mullan, actor
    • Grimble
    • By Grimble 22nd Sep 16, 10:01 AM
    • 317 Posts
    • 364 Thanks
    Grimble
    Advertising consent for signs with proof of payment and renewal, not just a statement of truth.
    • Keezy
    • By Keezy 22nd Sep 16, 2:40 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Keezy
    Advertising consent for signs with proof of payment and renewal, not just a statement of truth.
    Originally posted by Grimble

    Ahhh thanks Grimble, how can I word this in the claim, just how you've written it ? I could put it as 5b
    Last edited by Keezy; 22-09-2016 at 2:54 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 25th Sep 16, 3:37 PM
    • 38,399 Posts
    • 49,839 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I wouldn't mention it; the claim is not void because of a minor typo.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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