Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • hineyb
    • By hineyb 30th Aug 16, 9:28 AM
    • 21Posts
    • 2Thanks
    hineyb
    UKPC 2nd letter stage
    • #1
    • 30th Aug 16, 9:28 AM
    UKPC 2nd letter stage 30th Aug 16 at 9:28 AM
    Hi, i am newbie in terms of account creation but i have been following and using these posts for years using all your advice.. i have won every appeal so far (even some luckily against councils!) i even do appeals for my friends and do well..

    Anyway i have got this far without ever needing to ask a question or ask for advice but now it seems UKPC have stumped me!!!

    my girlfriend has recently moved to a rented flat which UKPC control.. she doesnt drive so she has given me her permit.. a few times the car park has been so full that i have just parked in a made up space.. which most times i have got away with.. this time however.. they have fined me (UKPC) my car was fined on the 10/06/16, i did the norm and ignored the fine and took it off windscreen and put in my car as i always do and waited the NTK.. i received the NTK on 14/07/16, i then wrote to them in the standard form that i always use for the newbies page..

    they then wrote back on the 22/08 saying..

    [COLOR="red"]thank you for your recent correspondence in relation to the parking charge.

    in order to make a final decision regarding your appeal, pleace can you provide the full name and address of the driver to our appeals department within 21 days of this letter

    Paragraph 9(2)(B) of schedule 4 of the protection of freedoms act 2012, states that we must inform the registered keeper that the drive of a vehicle is required to pay the parking charge in full. it also notes that as we do no know the drivers name or current postal address, the registered keeper, if they not the driver at the time, should inform the operator (i.e us ) of the name and current address of the driver and pass the notice to them.

    The act also warns that if, at the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day after parking charge is sent), the parking charge has not been paid in full and the operator does not know both the name and current address of the driver,m the operator has the right to recover and unpaid part of the parking charge from the registered keeper. this warning is given under paragraph 9(2)(f) of schedule 4 of the protection of freedoms act 2012 and is subject to us complying with the applicable conditions under schedule 34 of that act (which we consider we do comply with, to the letter)

    Failure to provide this information will give us no alternative other than to make our final decision based on the previous information received, at this stage a POPLA verification code will be provided.

    Further correspondence can be sent to our postal address below or on our website at (their website)

    The parking charge has been on hold whilst under appeal and may be settled in full at the reduced rate of £60.

    PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER. UKPC REGULARLY TAKES MOTORISTS TO COURT WHO IGNORE THEIR PARKING CHARGERS. PLEASE SEE (a link to their site again) FOR FURTHER INFORMATION.


    Please excuse any errors in the above i had to type the letter up as i am not sure how to upload a pic to this.. (any instructions would be great )

    What would you suggest my next steps be??

    I have also about another 3 fines coming through from them as i didnt put the permit up.. as its lost its stickiness and falls down so i leave it off and put i up when i park.. but stupidly i have forgotten around 3 times.. so i know i have another 3 on their way!! (any advanced suggestions on this would be great too!) i am not on the lease agreement so id struggle to prove anything that way!!

    Thanks for your help in advance
Page 2
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 7th Sep 16, 2:36 PM
    • 3,625 Posts
    • 3,133 Thanks
    Herzlos
    All the usual stuff from the newbies thread:

    No keeper liability due to lack of POFA2012 compliance
    UKPC has no right to issue invoices (no interest in the land)
    The signage is insufficient to form a contract
    Amount requested is neither a GPEOL nor a contractual sum as per Beavis.

    Depending on the signage, you also have a point about it not being possible to pay a contractual sum for a forbidding term (i.e. if the signage says something like "permit holders only" then you are either a permit holder, in which case there's no reason to issue a ticket, or you're not, in which case you're not allowed to park and it's a trespass issue, which can only be brought by the landowner for a nominal sum).

    Have a search on here for successful POPLA appeals, there's a sticky thread that summarises them.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 7th Sep 16, 3:11 PM
    • 5,288 Posts
    • 3,837 Thanks
    The Deep
    She can complain to the landowner / management agency ...


    No, she is a tenant not a leaseholder. She should go through her landlord or his/her agent.
    Last edited by The Deep; 07-09-2016 at 3:16 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 7th Sep 16, 6:28 PM
    • 5,288 Posts
    • 3,837 Thanks
    The Deep
    Can i not just say i own the car and she was driving it?

    without of cause letting them know she was driving it??
    Originally posted by hineyb

    But you told us she does not drive


    my girlfriend has recently moved to a rented flat which UKPC control.. she doesnt drive so she has given me her permit..
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • parkingwoes
    • By parkingwoes 7th Sep 16, 6:36 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 51 Thanks
    parkingwoes
    Beat them at POPLA enough times and they'll stop wasting your time - it's costing them £27 each time you appeal and making the warden no commission.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    That was the old POPLA rate with London Councils, I am not sure there are any solid published figures of what the Ombudsman Services are charging for their substandard equivalent service.

    However, if the PPC does not contend the appeal and withdraws, we know there is no charge for the PPC
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Sep 16, 10:16 PM
    • 38,363 Posts
    • 49,810 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Ok thanks Herzlos

    and what would my appeal be based on at POPLA stage?
    Originally posted by hineyb
    As advised in the NEWBIES thread post #3, search the forum for the name of the firm and the word POPLA (and in this case add the word 'permit' to the search, so in this case 'UKPC POPLA permit' finds you recent examples to copy from. Like every other newbie here, copy & adapt a similar one, then show us your draft at that stage.

    Ignore that standard UKPC letter that begs to be told who was driving. And...don't lie about the driver.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 07-09-2016 at 10:19 PM.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 8th Sep 16, 9:51 AM
    • 3,625 Posts
    • 3,133 Thanks
    Herzlos
    But you told us she does not drive
    Originally posted by The Deep
    Yeah, you might have issues naming a non-driver as the driver, but you shouldn't be naming the driver anyway.

    She should be catching any new invoices and appealing as keeper (which makes life easier for you, as if those ones ever got to court she can't be the driver, since she doesn't drive).

    She can still complain to landlord and management agents about the invoices issued to her car. She doesn't need to tell them she can't drive because legally it doesn't matter.
    • hineyb
    • By hineyb 19th Sep 16, 9:21 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    hineyb
    Hi guys.. update!

    so i received 3 parking fines altogether from UKPC

    544
    608
    605

    544 current status is they sent the letter and i am waiting for a second letter with POPLA code.

    608 - they have sent response to my standard letter saying we believe there is another signage bla bla bla and i can pay the reduced rate. appeal to popla or do nothing an fine will go up..

    I have looked at the signage and it is very sufficient and big enough.. what do you suggest i do here?

    Now here is the interesting part!!

    605 - i receive letter back from standard appeal saying.. in order to make final desicion.. please can you send a copt of vaild parking permit to appeals dept...

    so now if i do this they will cancel 605??

    do you think there is grounds for me here to say

    "here is my parking permit.. can you now please council all of the above fines in my name due to your wardens poor awareness"... and send all the PCN numbers i have???

    Again, thanks in advance for your help
    • hineyb
    • By hineyb 19th Sep 16, 2:03 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    hineyb
    I also now have the landowners details.. after weeks of searching.. could this help us fight the UKPC off in anyway?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Sep 16, 5:14 PM
    • 10,272 Posts
    • 15,142 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I also now have the landowners details.. after weeks of searching.. could this help us fight the UKPC off in anyway?
    Originally posted by hineyb
    Only by you pressing the landowner to intervene and for them to tell UKPC to cancel.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th Sep 16, 5:43 PM
    • 5,288 Posts
    • 3,837 Thanks
    The Deep
    Unless the lease explicitly says something about the car being registered to a registered tenant, then you're completely above board,

    She is a tenant, she will almost certainly have an AST.
    Last edited by The Deep; 19-09-2016 at 5:46 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th Sep 16, 5:51 PM
    • 5,288 Posts
    • 3,837 Thanks
    The Deep
    I also now have the landowners details.. after weeks of searching.. could this help us fight the UKPC off in anyway?
    Originally posted by hineyb

    As a tenant, she should not contact the MA directly, but though her landlord.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • naiomi1908
    • By naiomi1908 19th Sep 16, 9:38 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    naiomi1908
    Hi i need a little help I've recently tried to renew my bank loan to be informed I have a ccj when looking into this it's from UK parking company I've never received any letter or anything stating anything about this I moved house last year I've rang the company and they said they sent letters to my old address but if I haven't received them and have proof of paying for parking the date they said which was August last year and luckily you have to pay over the phone with a bank card how can I now remove this ccj as it's affecting my credit limit and the company are saying it's nothing to do with them now and has been passed on. How can they get away with it when they have clearly stated they send letters to my old address also the letters they sent were in January this year the date of parking was August last year I'm just so confused of what I do now please help
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Sep 16, 9:49 PM
    • 38,363 Posts
    • 49,810 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Hi i need a little help I've recently tried to renew my bank loan to be informed I have a ccj when looking into this it's from UK parking company.

    I've never received any letter or anything stating anything about this I moved house last year I've rang the company and they said they sent letters to my old address but if I haven't received them and have proof of paying for parking the date they said which was August last year and luckily you have to pay over the phone with a bank card.

    how can I now remove this ccj as it's affecting my credit limit and the company are saying it's nothing to do with them now and has been passed on.

    How can they get away with it when they have clearly stated they send letters to my old address also the letters they sent were in January this year the date of parking was August last year I'm just so confused of what I do now please help
    Originally posted by naiomi1908
    Read these threads:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5524075

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5524754

    You need to start your own thread, using the 'NEW THREAD' BUTTON on page one of this forum board so hop back there using 'forum jump' or the breadcrumb trail at the very top of this page (blue tiny writing).

    If you don't know how, go back to your welcome email and read it/watch the 'new to the forum?' video tutorial.

    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • hineyb
    • By hineyb 20th Sep 16, 11:18 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    hineyb
    Ok Thanks so in regards to contacting UKPC

    Shall i say about the 605 response..

    605 - i receive letter back from standard appeal saying.. in order to make final desicion.. please can you send a copt of vaild parking permit to appeals dept...

    so now if i do this they will cancel 605??

    do you think there is grounds for me here to say

    "here is my parking permit.. can you now please council all of the above fines in my name due to your wardens poor awareness"... and send all the PCN numbers i have???
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Sep 16, 12:05 PM
    • 38,363 Posts
    • 49,810 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    so now if i do this they will cancel 605??
    No they won't cancel - but you can send your permit as long as you do not say who was driving (unless you've already accidentally told them)...
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • hineyb
    • By hineyb 20th Sep 16, 1:13 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    hineyb
    Hey Coup

    nope i havent told them im the driver..

    this is the letter received back from landlord...

    There is an appeal process as part of the current scheme. If your tenants wish to appeal against a specific parking fine then they can email me with the parking fine reference and reasons why they consider the fine was issued incorrectly. The appeals are not decided on by me but by the Residents Association directors. I have to say that as the scheme has been in operation for 4 years it is unlikely that an appeal would be supported because someone parked in a Zone without a valid Zone permit



    As I mentioned in my first email to you parking is a major problem because there are not enough spaces for the people seeking to park.



    If there is not a Zone 1 space available when your tenant arrives home then the alternative is to park in the adopted spine road on the development or (as some residents have been forced to) park in one of the side roads on the other side of Belswains Lane



    I do appreciate that this is not ideal situation but the directors of the Residents Association believe that it is better to have a parking scheme in place rather than no scheme


    so once they got my permit as proof.. then what are they going to do???
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Sep 16, 1:45 PM
    • 38,363 Posts
    • 49,810 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Reject the appeal & issue a POPLA code.
    PCN in a private car park in England/Wales? DON'T PAY IT BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    USE THE 'FORUM JUMP' ON RIGHT, GO TO THE PARKING TICKETS FORUM. READ THE 'NEWBIES' THREAD.
    Do NOT read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • hineyb
    • By hineyb 20th Sep 16, 2:08 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    hineyb
    so ive checked a few POPLA appeals and i have come up with this as mine...

    anything i should add or take out??

    I am the registered keeper and I wish to appeal a recent parking charge from UKPC on 19/07/2016 06:08 at Apsley Lock. I submit the points below to show that I am not liable for the parking charge:

    1) No standing or authority to pursue charges nor form contracts with drivers.
    2) The signage was not readable so there was no valid contract formed.
    3) No contract agreed and no legitimate interest nor clear signs.

    1) No standing or authority to pursue charges nor form contracts with drivers.

    I believe that this Operator has no proprietary interest in the land, so they have no standing to make contracts with drivers in their own right, nor to pursue charges for breach in their own name. In the absence of such title, UKPCmust have assignment of rights from the landowner to pursue charges for breach in their own right, including at court level. A commercial site agent for the true landholder has no automatic standing nor authority in their own right, which would meet the strict requirements of section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice.

    Section 7 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice requires parking operators to have the written authority from the landowner to operate on the land and to enforce charges in the courts in their own name.!

    In addition, Section 7.3 states:

    “The written authorisation must also set out:!

    a. the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined!

    b. any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c. any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement!

    d. who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs!

    e. the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.''

    I therefore put UKPC to strict proof to provide POPLA and myself with an unredacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract between UKPC and the landowner, not another agent or retailer or other non-landholder, because it will still not be clear that the landowner has authorised the necessary rights to UKPC.!

    2) The signage was not compliant so there was no valid contract formed between UKPC and the driver.

    Unreadable signage breaches Appendix B of the BPA Code of Practice which states that terms on entrance signs must be clearly readable without a driver having to turn away from the road ahead. A Notice is not imported into the contract unless brought home so prominently that the party 'must' have known of it and agreed terms beforehand. Nothing about this Operator's onerous inflated 'parking charges' was sufficiently prominent and it is clear that the requirements for forming a contract (i.e. consideration flowing between the two parties, offer, acceptance and fairness and transparency of terms offered in good faith) were not satisfied.

    Section 18 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice requires operators to fully comply with the following on entrance signage:

    18.2 Entrance signs play an important part in establishing a parking contract and deterring trespassers. Therefore, as well as the signs you must have telling drivers about the terms and conditions for parking, you must also have a standard form of entrance sign at the entrance to the parking area. Entrance signs must tell drivers that the car park is managed and that there are terms and conditions they must be aware of. Entrance signs must follow some minimum general principles and be in a standard format. The size of the sign must take into account the expected speed of vehicles approaching the car park, and it is recommended that you follow Department for Transport guidance on this. See Appendix B for an example of an entrance sign and more information about their use.

    18.3 Specific parking-terms signage tells drivers what your terms and conditions are, including your parking charges. You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. Signs showing your detailed terms and conditions must be at least 450mm x 450mm.

    18.4 If you intend to use the keeper liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012, your signs must give ’adequate notice’. This includes:
    • specifying the sum payable for unauthorised parking
    • adequately bringing the charges to the attention of drivers, and
    • following any applicable government signage regulations.

    18.10 So that disabled motorists can decide whether they want to use the site, there should be at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking that can be viewed without needing to leave the vehicle. Ideally this sign should be close to any parking bays set aside for disabled motorists.

    UKPC’s reason for issuing the parking charge was, “Parking in a permit area without displaying a valid permit”. As per Appendix B, “There must be at least one item from Group 1. In this instance, that would apply to text mentioning “Permit holders only”

    Also as per Appendix B, “Signs should be readable and understandable at all times, including during the hours of darkness or at dusk if and when parking enforcement activity takes place at those times.” Contrary to this, you can see from UKPC photographic evidence, their signage text is far to small for any one with good eyesight to read, not to mention the fact they are not well lit at night making this impossible to see.

    If a driver can't read the sum of the parking charge (£100) nor the terms before parking - because the font is too small/the sign unremarkable and too high to read from a driver's seat - then they cannot have agreed to it. Also, a keeper appellant cannot be bound by inadequate notice of the charge either (POFA Schedule 4 requires 'adequate notice' of the sum of the parking charge, not just vague illegible small print, however near the car).

    The well-known and often used 'Red Hand Rule' in the binding case of J Spurling Ltd v Bradshaw [1956] applies, where Denning LJ stated: ''Some clauses which I have seen would need to be printed in red ink...with a red hand pointing to it before the notice could be held to be sufficient''. In Mendelson v Normand and Thornton v Shoe Lane which were both about parking, this was also clearly stated by Denning LJ:

    ‘The customer is bound by those terms as long as they are sufficiently brought to his notice beforehand, but not otherwise. In {ticket cases of former times} the issue…was regarded as an offer by the company. That theory was, of course, a fiction. No customer in a thousand ever read the conditions. In order to give sufficient notice, it would need to be printed in red ink with a red hand pointing to it – or something equally startling.’!

    i.e. even if a document or notice is ostensibly under the nose of a consumer, the onerous term (e.g. £100 charge for not displaying a valid ticket in a car park) needs to be VERY explicit and prominent. Not hidden among small print on a sign, regardless of whether that sign is in the vicinity of the car. This was reiterated by Denning LJ in Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking [1971] where he held that the courts should not hold any man bound by such a condition unless it was ''drawn to his attention in the most explicit way''. Small print on an illegible, unremarkable and pale sign on a wall is not enough and is not on a par with the very clear signs 'with the charge in large lettering' as was explored and vital to the decision in Parking Eye v Beavis.!

    The signs are up on poles, higher than normal line-of-sight nor do they communicate full contractual terms & conditions visible to the occupants of the car. Any upright signs were not so prominent among all the other signage on site that they were ever seen by the occupants of the car. Any photos supplied by UKPC to POPLA will show the signs with the misleading aid of a close up camera and the angle may well not show how high the sign is. As such, I require UKPC to state the height of each sign in their response and to show contemporaneous photo evidence of these signs, taken at the same time of day without photo shopping, cropping or lighting aids (including lighting adjustments made by camera or software) and showing where the signs are placed.

    3) No contract agreed and no legitimate interest nor clear signs.

    I also wish to reference the Aziz test (as my case is different to that of Beavis v Parking Eye) in order to assess whether the imbalance arises ‘contrary to the requirement of good faith’, it must be determined whether the seller or supplier, dealing fairly and equitably with the consumer, could reasonably assume that the consumer would have agreed to the term concerned in individual contract negotiations.”!

    And as for whether average consumers 'would have agreed' to pay £100 had there been negotiations in advance, the answer here is obviously no. There is no justification or negotiation that could have possibly have persuaded an average consumer to pay £100 to this parking firm. Their charge relies upon unseen terms, not clear contracts, and should not be upheld.

    I have made my detailed submission to show how the applicable law (POFA) supports my appeal, which I submit should now be determined in my favour.

    This concludes my POPLA appeal.

    Yours faithfully,
    • hineyb
    • By hineyb 22nd Sep 16, 11:20 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    hineyb
    ok i am going to send the above

    i have just go on to poplas page

    what grounds am i submitting it on?

    would it be 'I was not improperly parked' ?? or is this admitting to being the driver?? or does this not matter at POPLA stage?
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 22nd Sep 16, 11:33 AM
    • 5,288 Posts
    • 3,837 Thanks
    The Deep
    I am surprised that you need to ask these questions, have you not understood what you have written in your previous post?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim's to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,443Posts Today

6,591Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • RT @PapaSlavs: @MartinSLewis hi, how much per month should I typically charge my daughter board & lodgings now she's left uni and become an?

  • RT @EssexHebridean: 13 years, 2 months and 6 days after taking it out, we've just paid the final lump sum off our mortgage. #MortgageFree @?

  • Many first time buyers panicked about Help to Buy mortgage guarantee ending, here's my video on what it really mean? https://t.co/uGD6sG4hvl

  • Follow Martin