Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Xanthanan
    • By Xanthanan 27th Aug 16, 2:56 PM
    • 67Posts
    • 63Thanks
    Xanthanan
    Excel Parking, BW Legal and now what looks like court papers
    • #1
    • 27th Aug 16, 2:56 PM
    Excel Parking, BW Legal and now what looks like court papers 27th Aug 16 at 2:56 PM
    Back in 2014 a vehicle hired by me went into a car park to pick up an item from the back entrance of a charity shop. The driver (wasn't me and could have been anyone from a list of a few people) just went there to load and I guess tehy presumed they would get a few minutes grace as they weren't actually parking. Im told the passenger went into the shop and took a while before he came out of the shop with the manager carrying the sofa, chairs, cushions etc. which were then loaded and off they went.

    A couple of months later I got a letter from Excel parking saying I (they presumed I was the driver) had to pay a charge as I had failed to pay to park. I will have to go and find all the letters as I cant remember exactly but it was something like a 10 min 'grace period' and the driver took something like 15. There were pictures of the vehicle on the letter (or on one of the subsequent letters) but I cant remember exactly how clear they were. The letter demanded so much (maybe £60), or the charge would go up to £100 after so long and if left longer I could end up with more costs and court actions etc. I guess I should have googled better about what to do at the time but what I found meant that I thought I was already pretty 'up to speed' with what to do, simply ignore them and they will eventually go away. Numerous letters and phone calls were successfully ignored, both from Excel and then later Rossendales collect (a debt recovery company). I still managed to do what I thought was the right thing and ignore it all and they did eventually go away.

    However, earlier this year I got a new demand from BW legal, as usual demanding monies and again threatening court action and ignored it as I thought that would never happen, which brings me to today. I have now got what looks like court papers for the Northampton "County Court Business Centre". The ignore them plan appears to not work and I find myself on this forum, reading that the plan wasn't as up to date as I had hoped.

    The court papers say I have upto 14 days to respond but I have a further pressure, I am off to the USA in 5 days so I need to sort it fast. I'm tempted to pay the extortionate amount of almost £250 which is what the papers claim but I'm really not pleased it should be so costly for what was a few minutes by someone else and some out of date advice.

    Does anyone have a way forward? Even if that way forward is 'pay the money and stop moaning'
    Last edited by Xanthanan; 21-03-2017 at 9:12 PM. Reason: Added further details after reviweing 2 year old info!
Page 5
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 16th Apr 17, 11:43 PM
    • 1,173 Posts
    • 2,329 Thanks
    Lamilad
    The defence still exceeds the guidance of 1000 words but I am not sure whats best to cut, or how best to shrink it. Advice please.
    Surely your defence has already been submitted, hasn't it?
    • Xanthanan
    • By Xanthanan 17th Apr 17, 2:07 AM
    • 67 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Xanthanan
    Sorry maybe I'm using the wrong terms, give me programming, scripting and router / switch networks any day of the week!

    I submitted my initial 'defence' in September which was on MCOL and forms, as far as I understand, the basis of the defence for my hearing, which is in May. That, I thought, would consist of evidence/exhibits, a WS and a 'skeleton' defence argument (or words like that) which I believe is some words that present the legal argument to back up the facts in my WS and the evidence I present... (or that's how I understand it)

    Bargepole was quite scathing of what appeared to be an overly long argument/defence/skeleton/whatever its called so I have shortened it considerably but not to the extent he suggested (4 pages or 1000 words).

    With this skeleton appearing to still be overly long do I trim more out of each paragraph (approx. 50%) or do I remove 50% of the paragraphs, for example removing my 'secondary' defence of the CoP failures... as if I was the driver (which I wasn't). I have a terrible memory, its my age, and the more I trim the more I will probably forget during the hearing.
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 17th Apr 17, 9:08 AM
    • 2,141 Posts
    • 6,186 Thanks
    bargepole
    Sorry maybe I'm using the wrong terms, give me programming, scripting and router / switch networks any day of the week!
    Originally posted by Xanthanan
    Right a quick run through the correct legal terms.

    The document you submitted in response to the original N1 Claim Form is your Defence. It doesn't need to be overly detailed, but should contain at least a mention of all the facts and legal arguments you will rely on.

    The Witness Statement, filed and served usually 14 days before the hearing date, is simply a factual account of what happened. Facts should only be from your own knowledge, and the statement should not contain any opinion, or attempt at legal argument. Appended to this should be any evidence, eg photos of signs etc.

    A Skeleton Argument (not a skeleton defence, there is no such thing) is optional in Small Claims hearings, and is a summary of the legal arguments as to why the claim should not succeed. Its purpose is to provide a step-by-step series of reasons for the Judge to dismiss the claim.

    I noticed you had included several paragraphs about lack of advertising consent for the signage, relying on ex turpi causa non oritur actio.

    Good luck with that.
    Speeding cases fought: 24 (3 of mine, 21 for others). Cases won: 20. Points on licence: 0. Private Parking Court Cases: Won 29. Lost 9.
    • Xanthanan
    • By Xanthanan 17th Apr 17, 3:18 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Xanthanan
    Thank you Bargepole for helping me understand better the various documents and what they should be called, I have been using the wrong terms and shall correct that now.... (I still prefer techy stuff to legal stuff though!)

    Here is what I should have said in post 80:

    "The Skeleton Argument still exceeds the guidance of 1000 words but I am not sure whats best to cut, or how best to shrink it. I see it is optional, do I have to submit one if that's pretty much all I will read from to carry out the arguments in the hearing? Advice please... At the moment I still use the lack of POFA and driver ID as my primary reason why the claim is invalid.
    However, should the court be convinced by their 'presumed driver' stuff, I then fall back onto CoP failure, lack of loading provision and signage consent.
    Am I best to carry on with the broad defence or just go all out for POFA / Driver ID?"

    I noticed you had included several paragraphs about lack of advertising consent for the signage, relying on ex turpi causa non oritur actio.

    Good luck with that.
    Originally posted by bargepole
    Forgive my simple approach but is that because I should simply point out the original failing (lack of consent in my WS para 14) and then completely avoid trying to guide the court through paras 23 - 25 of what is currently called "Full Defencev3" and will be renamed. (I copied those paras almost word for word from another case for the same location)
    Last edited by Xanthanan; 17-04-2017 at 3:23 PM.
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 17th Apr 17, 3:29 PM
    • 2,141 Posts
    • 6,186 Thanks
    bargepole
    It's probably best to leave all the arguments in there, because in the game known as DJ Bingo, you can never predict which points the Judge will consider to be significant.

    As the defendant, you only need the Judge to be with you on one point in order to win, whereas the claimant needs the judge to agree with their arguments on all points.

    However, the number of Judges who will dismiss the claim due to lack of advertising consent can probably be counted on the fingers of a sawmill operator's hand.
    Speeding cases fought: 24 (3 of mine, 21 for others). Cases won: 20. Points on licence: 0. Private Parking Court Cases: Won 29. Lost 9.
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 17th Apr 17, 3:46 PM
    • 2,141 Posts
    • 6,186 Thanks
    bargepole
    "The Skeleton Argument still exceeds the guidance of 1000 words but I am not sure whats best to cut, or how best to shrink it. I see it is optional, do I have to submit one if that's pretty much all I will read from to carry out the arguments in the hearing? Advice please... At the moment I still use the lack of POFA and driver ID as my primary reason why the claim is invalid.
    Originally posted by Xanthanan
    The Judge will have read your skeleton argument before you go into court, so he won't thank you for just sitting there and reading it out loud.

    You just need to identify the main points of your Defence in bullet-point form, and give a brief summary of each of those. If the Judge wants to go into more detail on any of them, he will.

    If he starts giving the advocate for the other side a hard time over any of those, he's leaning towards your side, and the best advice at that point is to shut up. As one of their Lordships once said in a Court of Appeal case, "Mr XXX, we agree with your argument, unless you'd like to persuade us otherwise".
    Last edited by bargepole; 17-04-2017 at 3:49 PM.
    Speeding cases fought: 24 (3 of mine, 21 for others). Cases won: 20. Points on licence: 0. Private Parking Court Cases: Won 29. Lost 9.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 17th Apr 17, 3:54 PM
    • 15,489 Posts
    • 24,192 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    However, the number of Judges who will dismiss the claim due to lack of advertising consent can probably be counted on the fingers of a sawmill operator's hand.
    In the cases I've read where 'ex turpi' has been raised, the judge has said (paraphrased) 'If the local authority can't be *rsed to undertake a criminal prosecution, then it's not something I can be *rsed about either the small claims court should be involved in'.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 17th Apr 17, 4:13 PM
    • 1,173 Posts
    • 2,329 Thanks
    Lamilad
    I see it is optional, do I have to submit one
    No you can make your arguments orally on the day. The risk is you might forget to mention something or not get the chance to if it doesn't come up.

    I didn't use a skeleton in either of my cases although my WS did contain points of argument (technically not right but accepted in small claims)

    I preferred to make my arguments orally so that i could really stress the main points i wanted to get across. But then i am confident arguing this way - not everyone is.

    Some judge's prefer to ask lots of questions and hear discussion from both sides (as in my cases);

    some prefer to have read all the information and arguments before you go in then just explain how they are minded and ask if there's anything else to add... As was the case where i lay rep'd for HC77.

    This isn't the definitive answer you wanted... That's because there isn't one... As Bargepole says it's DJ Bingo, and you don't know what yours will be like.
    • Xanthanan
    • By Xanthanan 17th Apr 17, 9:24 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Xanthanan
    Guys, thank you! Your comments are all very helpful and aids my confidence.

    I understand we are playing DJ bingo to a certain extent and my bottom line aim for the day is that its OVER once the day is done.
    Above that I do think (and hope) that I have a strong enough argument to win but am also quite sure it's within my capacity to snatch a defeat from the jaws of victory so I need to keep quiet when necessary and have a Skeleton to present the argument that I may well forget on the day.
    • Xanthanan
    • By Xanthanan 19th Apr 17, 12:27 AM
    • 67 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Xanthanan
    Ohhh I think I may have dropped off...

    Just read somewhere that 14 days before the hearing isn't 2 weeks. Its 14 working days meaning my bundle has to arrive by THIS Thursday ... not in a week or so's time like I thought.

    Can anyone quickly confirm this? I can print out and hand deliver the bundle plus email the BW legal copy ... but darn from being relatively up to speed its a close run thing all of a sudden
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 19th Apr 17, 1:10 AM
    • 1,173 Posts
    • 2,329 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Ohhh I think I may have dropped off...

    Just read somewhere that 14 days before the hearing isn't 2 weeks. Its 14 working days meaning my bundle has to arrive by THIS Thursday ... not in a week or so's time like I thought.

    Can anyone quickly confirm this? I can print out and hand deliver the bundle plus email the BW legal copy ... but darn from being relatively up to speed its a close run thing all of a sudden
    Originally posted by Xanthanan
    Stop panicking. Yes technically it's 14 "clear days" which doesn't include the day of service or the day of the hearing but this is small claims not the Royal Courts of Justice so it will be fine to submit your bundle 14 "actual" days before the hearing. That's what everyone else does anyway and that's probably what the claimant will do.
    • henrik777
    • By henrik777 19th Apr 17, 1:45 AM
    • 2,151 Posts
    • 27,526 Thanks
    henrik777
    Ohhh I think I may have dropped off...

    Just read somewhere that 14 days before the hearing isn't 2 weeks. Its 14 working days meaning my bundle has to arrive by THIS Thursday ... not in a week or so's time like I thought.

    Can anyone quickly confirm this? I can print out and hand deliver the bundle plus email the BW legal copy ... but darn from being relatively up to speed its a close run thing all of a sudden
    Originally posted by Xanthanan
    You can read all sorts of crap on the internet. You can also read the official rules

    https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part02#2.9

    Dates for compliance to be calendar dates and to include time of day
    2.9
    (1) Where the court gives a judgment, order or direction which imposes a time limit for doing any act, the last date for compliance must, wherever practicable –

    (a) be expressed as a calendar date; and

    (b) include the time of day by which the act must be done.

    (2) Where the date by which an act must be done is inserted in any document, the date must, wherever practicable, be expressed as a calendar date.
    • Xanthanan
    • By Xanthanan 19th Apr 17, 2:41 AM
    • 67 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Xanthanan
    Sooo having printed and hand numbered the whole bundle in a mad flap, I am not to panic? Oooohhh lol... sorry, kind of a relief that is... Its rather late and I'm a little stir crazy now, so for complete understanding and avoidance of panic moments or any ambiguity (and so I may sleep tonight):

    The date of my hearing is Wed 10th May, so the bundles can arrive by Wed 26th Apr, thus be posted on Mon 24th to follow the 2 day postage rule ... is that right?
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 19th Apr 17, 8:18 AM
    • 1,173 Posts
    • 2,329 Thanks
    Lamilad
    The date of my hearing is Wed 10th May, so the bundles can arrive by Wed 26th Apr, thus be posted on Mon 24th to follow the 2 day postage rule ... is that right?
    That's fine. Though if one was being pedantic they would say that in order to comply fully with CPR 2.8...

    https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part02#2.8

    ... And specifically the "clear days" mentioned within - your docs would have to be served on Mon 24th.

    LoC explains in more detail here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5573407&page=2#32

    Fact is - 14 "actual" days will be fine (in your case Wed 26th). The court won't care.
    • Xanthanan
    • By Xanthanan 20th Apr 17, 9:09 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Xanthanan
    So its all ready for copying tomorrow, I have one final worry, the plan has always been to primarily defend on no driver and POF failure and should that prove to be fruitless fall back to CoP failures, lack of provision for loading and the unconsented signage.

    Between those primary and secondary arguements I have the following short paragraph in the SA... should I keep it or is it better to not have that in?

    Should the court believe I am still liable, I would ask that I am allowed continue to defend this case as if it were presumed I had been the driver (which I wasn’t).
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Apr 17, 9:45 PM
    • 51,504 Posts
    • 65,105 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would not have that line in. You are entitled to defend anyway, even of some defence points are shot down, you simply move onto the next one and don't have to have permission.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Xanthanan
    • By Xanthanan 20th Apr 17, 10:10 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Xanthanan
    Thank you, I will remove it
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 20th Apr 17, 10:38 PM
    • 1,173 Posts
    • 2,329 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Agree with CM. If that situation were to arise you can deal with it orally on the day.

    "Sir/ Ma'am, as well as my assertion that I was not the driver and the fact there is no keeper liability there are other significant reasons why this claim is completely without merit and I would like to discuss those now.............."
    • Xanthanan
    • By Xanthanan 26th Apr 17, 10:20 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Xanthanan
    So the BW legal WS and evidence pack arrived by email today, 12 pages of WS and 28 pages of exhibit. Need to extract the WS and redact some of it but will share out asap. No real surprises in there but would appreciate input from everyone once I've shared it out
    • Xanthanan
    • By Xanthanan 27th Apr 17, 8:00 PM
    • 67 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Xanthanan
    BW Legal WS in the link below. Would appreciate feedback where possible. I've already started writing notes but am working 'til late tonight

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nx3f44e0pzvvap1/AACcg8Y72g_3PSoLN6-v18Y8a?dl=0
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

5,122Posts Today

7,086Users online

Martin's Twitter