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  • FIRST POST
    • Hiltop1
    • By Hiltop1 26th Aug 16, 5:18 PM
    • 23Posts
    • 33Thanks
    Hiltop1
    I got a reply from bw legal!
    • #1
    • 26th Aug 16, 5:18 PM
    I got a reply from bw legal! 26th Aug 16 at 5:18 PM
    I know there are loads of these so i will be brief -
    - PCN from April 2012 (pre POFA) ignored as per all advice (VCS)
    - standard bw legal £54 charges etc letter july 2016
    - followed advice using GAN template to deny claim (not driver, pre POFA etc)
    - received standard 40% off letter 25/8/16 (relieved as this felt again like fishing to see who would give in)
    - a day later received personal reply to my letter
    this, as expected cites E v L, quotes DVLA Release of Information document, quotes the Protection of Harassment Act 1977, blathers on about legal fees of £54 being ok (doesn't mention the point that not claimable in CC) and finishes saying their 'client is amenable to to resolving this matter within 7 days without the need to incur any further cost, failure to do which we will seek our client's instruction on issuing County Court proceedings.'
    Any advice on a reply? I've searched around but for the first time have not found a discussion on this latest letter. Thanks
Page 2
    • Hiltop1
    • By Hiltop1 11th Sep 16, 11:18 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    Hiltop1
    Thanks, - I didn't mean that my inability to pay would make a difference to them or a court case, just that it makes me even more resolved to keep going with the letters. I do follow all these threads, and have done for nearly 5 years before feeling the need to post. Just sometimes when I want to avoid doing the wrong thingor the worry is getting too much, i need a little advice and boost to keep on.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 11th Sep 16, 11:32 AM
    • 12,445 Posts
    • 14,856 Thanks
    Redx
    fair enough , but one topic that crops up on here time and time again is this following mantra type reply

    IGNORE the debt collectors

    only ask for help and advice over the next 6 years if or when you receive either an LBC or an MCOL from either the PPC , actual solicitor acting for the claimant , (or the landowner)


    you are at this LBC letter stage , Letter (s) Before Court Claim (or LBCCC - Letters Before County Court Claim)

    nobody has a problem with you posting a thread on here or PPP, as you are at the LBCCC stage , after 4 years , so they have a further 2 years to harass you , which they are doing (as they are doing to thousands of other people , so a veritable tsunami)

    they have had this power since 1973 , since the small claims court system came into being , so its not new, but they are using it to be their bully boys , they are abusing the court system by using it to spread misery and extort money by any means necessary, some would say by deception , subterfuge and weasel words. I am sure you come across bullies like this in your profession , even in schoolyards or on faceache or tweeter , or snipchat)

    we can only tell you what you need to do based on what some knowledgeable people like G@N and others are saying on pepipoo , CAG , MSE , legal beagles and other forums etc

    that advice has already been given , whereas your personal circumstances do not come into it as its about court , even homeless people with nothing at all face court daily, the lack of means to pay a fine for the theft of a whisky bottle is not taken into consideration apart from the punishment (which may involve non-monetary decisions).

    in your case not paying the judgement in good time would still mean a 6 year CCJ on your record , even if the case was brought about by an unpaid plumber who fixed your broken shower !! (or a roofer who fixed the roof , or an unpaid double glazing firm that fixed the panes in the broken windows)

    ie:- its not about "what happened" , its about a law that allows one entity to take another to court , as you see on Judge Rinder almost daily (because that is what that programme is about , smalll claims , MCOL if you prefer)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Sep 16, 2:48 PM
    • 40,523 Posts
    • 52,401 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Do submit the CSA and SRA complaints now. Examples are set out for both, in LoveNorfolk's thread.

    That ties BW Legal up for maybe 6 weeks, adds to the complaint pile and pressure and could mean this case might not then proceed (and if it does it would be later on, once we've seen more BW Legal case lose in court so you could then use other cases in your evidence):

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/excel-parking-get-gladstonedby-bw-legal.html

    That's the first one so far.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Hiltop1
    • By Hiltop1 12th Sep 16, 7:15 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    Hiltop1
    Thanks again. I didn't mean that my current financial predicament would influence them in any way - it just makes me need to keep up the ping pong letters in order to hold onto my cash. It must be frustrating to you all having many of us witter on, but I (and i expect many others) post here when I feel I haven't found/aren't sure I have found the best fit response...... and in hope you kick me back into fight mode!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Sep 16, 7:21 PM
    • 40,523 Posts
    • 52,401 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes, but the best way to delay this whole thing and possibly get it dropped is to research solid CSA and SRA complaints, like the ones in LoveNorfolk's thread which are there for newbies the copy and learn from, and adapt to suit. The best fight-back and delaying tactic is to drop BW Legal in the sticky stuff.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 12th Sep 16, 7:52 PM
    • 4,135 Posts
    • 4,751 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Thanks again. I didn't mean that my current financial predicament would influence them in any way - it just makes me need to keep up the ping pong letters in order to hold onto my cash. It must be frustrating to you all having many of us witter on, but I (and i expect many others) post here when I feel I haven't found/aren't sure I have found the best fit response...... and in hope you kick me back into fight mode!
    Originally posted by Hiltop1
    Hey you, listen to coupon-mad and everyone else on this thread.

    Consider yourself kicked in the b*m and FIGHT THE SCAM

    Look BWLegal are not smart cookies. If they were, they would not have backed themselves into a corner with their menacing letters.

    That is why the SRA are being inundated with complaints and it's all about BWLegal.
    Right now, none of us know what will happen but with the prankster report, our guess is that BWLegal will soon be on the next ship to planet drongo.

    Like a lot these companies, they look no further than £££'s and not into the real facts. They work on the basis that many will just pay up ..... not something you will do
    If the SRA do nothing, bet they will though, the SRA will fall into disrepute, courtesy of a rogue trader to which currently there are 4 main ones who are playing the scammers game
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Hiltop1
    • By Hiltop1 1st Oct 16, 12:12 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    Hiltop1
    Just an update - had two letters dated 6th and 12th September giving contradictory dates for replying/paying and seeming to have different stances on whether VCS had instructed them to go ahead with court. I replied asking them (again) to desist and denied claim plus a boring, lengthy and detailed account of our correspondence and all their contradictions therein.

    In a separate letter I replied with advice here and I have made email complaint to CSA (received a reply) and intend to contact again with latest letters and threats.I have sent copies of everything plus complaint to CSA,, sent letter to T. May and O. Heald.

    Now both their deadlines have passed - letter of 6/9 gave 7 days to pay, one on 12/9 demanded payment by 29/9. I wait to see what comes next.

    Also, is it my imagination or do the forums seem a little less busy on the BW front?
    • mowkid
    • By mowkid 1st Oct 16, 2:14 PM
    • 59 Posts
    • 84 Thanks
    mowkid
    J.

    Now both their deadlines have passed - letter of 6/9 gave 7 days to pay, one on 12/9 demanded payment by 29/9. I wait to see what comes next.

    Also, is it my imagination or do the forums seem a little less busy on the BW front?
    Originally posted by Hiltop1
    I have a thread going as I am trying to help my wife's carer. She has recieved a letter from bw giving her a 29/9 deadline. Must be a standard template letter I guess.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Oct 16, 2:21 PM
    • 40,523 Posts
    • 52,401 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Just an update - had two letters dated 6th and 12th September giving contradictory dates for replying/paying and seeming to have different stances on whether VCS had instructed them to go ahead with court. I replied asking them (again) to desist and denied claim plus a boring, lengthy and detailed account of our correspondence and all their contradictions therein.

    In a separate letter I replied with advice here and I have made email complaint to CSA (received a reply) and intend to contact again with latest letters and threats.I have sent copies of everything plus complaint to CSA,, sent letter to T. May and O. Heald.

    Now both their deadlines have passed - letter of 6/9 gave 7 days to pay, one on 12/9 demanded payment by 29/9. I wait to see what comes next.

    Also, is it my imagination or do the forums seem a little less busy on the BW front?
    Originally posted by Hiltop1
    Glad to hear you did complain to Mrs May and Sir Oliver Heald, as per the Theresa May thread here.

    An SRA complaint carries more weight IMHO and the SRA are investigating BW Legal. SRA complaint here, posted by me as SRM on pepipoo:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=107836

    But I can't claim to have written it. That's based on a complaint lodged by someone with legal qualifications who knows about the private parking scam and made it available to be copied and used. Obviously only use the relevant parts to YOUR letters, only if they said the same thing. The SRA complaint should at the very least, delay the issue significantly.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 1st Oct 16, 3:10 PM
    • 4,135 Posts
    • 4,751 Thanks
    beamerguy

    Also, is it my imagination or do the forums seem a little less busy on the BW front?
    Originally posted by Hiltop1
    It has been noted
    We do know there is an SRA investigation into BWLegal
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Hiltop1
    • By Hiltop1 1st Oct 16, 9:44 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    Hiltop1
    Thanks for your replies - C-M, that is the template I adapted to my letters and the Lovenorfolk one for CSA. The reply I recieved from SRA said that they were aware of the issues and were investigating them. I will send them the latest threats and details of how muddled and conflicting their demands are. I haven't checked all the envelopes before discarding, but did notice that the one titled 'letter of claim' came from Huddersfield, not Leeds - I guess the 'technology-based volume debt recovery and litigation service' they seem so proud of is generated from there.
    Thanks again for everyone's help.
    • Hiltop1
    • By Hiltop1 9th Oct 16, 4:44 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    Hiltop1
    I have now had a reply to my letter about overlapping letters and dates by which they wanted paying.

    To back track, the last but one letter changed tone to, if payment was not forthcoming withing 7 days "we are instructed to initiate County Court proceedings...". The last letter dated 6 days later was 'letter of claim' including "If our client successfully obtains a County Court Judgement ("CCJ") against you (which is likely)".....blah blah " In allowing you the opportunity to make representations and/or pay the Balance before proceedings being issued , our Client has complied with the guidelines under the Independent Parking Committee Code of Practice ("the Code") and its obligations under Civil Procedure Rules ("CPR"). All previous correspondence in this matter will be brought to the attention of then Court should this point be raised". "To avoid proceedings being commenced ..... we request you pay the balance by 29th September 2016".

    Yesterday's letter is an individual reply going through dates and contents of letters but changes its tone again. It explains the legal standing of the fact one letter was marked "Without Prejudice" (the offer of reduced costs), repeats that I am presumed driver as I haven't told them who was driving. Apparently, "until any evidence has been provided by yourself to suggest alternatively, you will still be pursued for the Balance". Regarding any SRA complaint says that "we continue to act legitimately on our client's instructions".

    As to who was driving, we then have "you have a duty to provide such evidence due to the pre action obligations of potential litigants under Civil Procedure Rules 1998". Can someone clarify what they mean by this - as I thought they had to prove who was driving? Also, does this mean that they consider their Letter Of Claim to be a letter before action?

    They finish with a reminder of my right to take independent legal advice as to the contents of their letter (this last letter, not all previous letters)- which I am assuming is due to SRA complaints about them writing threatening legal stuff to non legally knowledgeable people.

    So, I am confused as to where I am with this now. Apparently i have another 7 days to prevent it going to Court - by paying or providing name and address of driver.

    Have any others (Mowkid?) got any further with this? What do i reply this time? I am getting very fed up with all this now and dread getting home every day to see the post......

    Thanks for helping!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Oct 16, 6:39 PM
    • 40,523 Posts
    • 52,401 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    As to who was driving, we then have "you have a duty to provide such evidence due to the pre action obligations of potential litigants under Civil Procedure Rules 1998". Can someone clarify what they mean by this -
    They are lying. Tell the SRA, quote this rubbish. BW Legal are trying to mislead you that you are obliged by law to name the driver, which you absolutely are not.

    In fact, when the POFA Bill was being heard in the House of Commons, the BPA were pressing for some sort of obligation to name the driver but MPs would not hear of it. MP Lynne Featherstone was quite clear at the time, private firms were not to be handed that power. So, the POFA itself enshrines the right of a keeper not to name the driver.

    This fact is also supported by barrister, parking law expert and Lead Adjudicator, Henry Greenslade in the 2015 POPLA Report where he reiterated that regarding parking on private land, there was no 'presumption in law' that the keeper was the driver, nor could a refusal to name that driver be used against that person (effectively). He went as far as saying that no operator can assume that a keeper is the driver.

    So, I am confused as to where I am with this now. Apparently i have another 7 days to prevent it going to Court - by paying or providing name and address of driver.
    Exactly what they intend. They want you to be misled. That's why the contents of this latest misleading drivel needs you to make/add to an online report to the SRA to stop BW Legal in their tracks. You do not have to name the driver - even if you could recall, the burden of evidence is not on you to assist the claimant with their case, and thanks to the POFA Bill and the will of Parliament, nor do you have any obligation in law to drop a driver 'in it'.

    The fact is, as keeper you cannot be held liable by their client and you are in a far better position to defend it as keeper, but BW Legal don't want you to know that.

    Also please send this pile of dross (photocopies) with a covering letter complaint to Mrs May and your MP (as well as the SRA complaint):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5524754

    If you have already got an SRA complaint in, add this letter to it without a shadow of a doubt. If you have not, then look at LoveNorfolk's BW Legal thread and find pappa golf's post showing a legally-qualified contact's well-written BW Legal SRA complaint and adapt that. Add in specifics about your letters.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-10-2016 at 12:32 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Hiltop1
    • By Hiltop1 9th Oct 16, 7:30 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    Hiltop1
    Thanks for your quick reply. I have a long SRA complaint in and added an update last week with copies of all letters. I shall send them this too.

    I emailed Theresa May and the dept you mentioned who are responsible for the pending report about parking (communities and something?!) I also put copies of all letters in the post to Ms. May. Also sent to CSA.

    I assumed they were making it all up again, but wanted to check that they didn't think they had sent me something formal regarding court proceedings and I had failed to respond correctly.

    So, do I reply to them pointing out that I don't have to tell them anything??

    It definitely seems in this letter that by trying to explain legal terms and telling me I can get legal advice, they think they escape from being accused by SRA of trying to bamboozle the recipient......then throw in some spurious stuff and show what they really are.

    Oh, I did mention the current press interest in PCN/CCJ leading to comments by the PM. They say that they do not consider lawyers representing the legitimate interests of their clients as newsworthy, but if I were to publish any mistruths about the matter or their business "such as unfounded suggestion of harassment; we will take appropriate legal action to prevent such defamation." Whiter than snow, aren't they!?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Oct 16, 8:37 PM
    • 40,523 Posts
    • 52,401 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So, do I reply to them pointing out that I don't have to tell them anything??
    Yep, it can be short and sweet. You could quote Henry Greenslade if you haven't already, his opinion from 2015 can be considered persuasive regarding this industry, even now.

    It definitely seems in this letter that by trying to explain legal terms and telling me I can get legal advice, they think they escape from being accused by SRA of trying to bamboozle the recipient......then throw in some spurious stuff and show what they really are.
    Yes indeed. The SRA need to see this. Tell them in your own words how this has both annoyed and confused you and how this might be taken by a weaker person, to be an obligation to name the driver, who then has a lesser defence (purely because BW Legal's clients choose not to use the POFA wording for keeper liability). Basically they are leaning on the NON-liable person to name the potentially liable party, certainly not something that Schedule 4 supports nor Parliament ever envisaged.


    Oh, I did mention the current press interest in PCN/CCJ leading to comments by the PM. They say that they do not consider lawyers representing the legitimate interests of their clients as newsworthy, but if I were to publish any mistruths about the matter or their business "such as unfounded suggestion of harassment; we will take appropriate legal action to prevent such defamation." Whiter than snow, aren't they!?
    Only a nasty bullying author of such a letter would write such aggressive drivel. Ignore that rubbish - the truth is not a mistruth.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Hiltop1
    • By Hiltop1 9th Oct 16, 8:49 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    Hiltop1
    Indeed. The thing with the not relying on POFA statement, is surely that Excel/VCS were BPA members when this PCN was issued (pre POFA) and continued to be in BPA for the early days of POPLA, so how can they now apply their new status to this PCN?

    Thanks again for your advice - I really appreciate you, and other contributors, giving up your time to help us all. As well as advice it is great to feel we are not alone in all this and be given the kick to keep on fighting.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 9th Oct 16, 9:08 PM
    • 4,135 Posts
    • 4,751 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Oh, I did mention the current press interest in PCN/CCJ leading to comments by the PM. They say that they do not consider lawyers representing the legitimate interests of their clients as newsworthy, but if I were to publish any mistruths about the matter or their business "such as unfounded suggestion of harassment; we will take appropriate legal action to prevent such defamation." Whiter than snow, aren't they!?
    Originally posted by Hiltop1
    Who on earth made that statement ????? BW Legal ??
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Hiltop1
    • By Hiltop1 9th Oct 16, 9:28 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    Hiltop1
    Yes. In the letter to which they are replying I said that I had complained to relevant bodies and individuals and also contacted BBC Watchdog. I am not sure if that is what prompted their tesponse.

    I did send a subsequent letter (I am replying to every letter even though they overlap and conflict) and i quoted H Grenslade and I think i referred to the current press interest in misuse of the courts and that taking a case from early 2012 to court could be seen as a waste of court time (letter on work computer so i will check - I was losing my patience at this point so hope it wasn't wrong to say this). I am guessing this is what they are referring to in their reply, even though they only say they are replying to an earlier letter.

    Am I right that they can't take a pre POFA PCN and apply post POFA standards to it - esp if VCS members of BPA at the time?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Oct 16, 9:35 PM
    • 40,523 Posts
    • 52,401 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Am I right that they can't take a pre POFA PCN and apply post POFA standards to it - esp if VCS members of BPA at the time?
    Yep, exactly.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Hiltop1
    • By Hiltop1 9th Oct 16, 10:00 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    Hiltop1
    Also, just checked the letter they sent dated 22/8/16 which they say "you will note that the letter dated 22 August 2016 was marked "Without Prejudice"....." (they say this letter offering a reduction was an attempt to reach an amicable settlement and a goodwill gesture and goes on to explain why it was marked Without Prejudice and what this meant) .... well I've just checked and the letter and I can't see that marked on it anywhere! i will get a colleague to check tomorrow in case I am being stupid, but I have checked more than once. It gets more strange as time goes on
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