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    • Mangomummy
    • By Mangomummy 19th Aug 16, 12:03 PM
    • 10Posts
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    Mangomummy
    NPE have my car registration wrong, do I still pay?
    • #1
    • 19th Aug 16, 12:03 PM
    NPE have my car registration wrong, do I still pay? 19th Aug 16 at 12:03 PM
    Hi

    I went to the website to pay the £60 and also tried the phone number but they have my car reg wrong by one letter and there doesn't appear to be any footage of any kind. Do I just pay still? They have the right car make etc but surely without the correct registration they won't have access to my address. I don't want a long appeal either. Any advice appreciated!
Page 2
    • Grimble
    • By Grimble 20th Aug 16, 1:15 PM
    • 343 Posts
    • 392 Thanks
    Grimble
    You need to get it through your head that you are dealing with a one man band and sometimes an employee. A fine upstanding member of the community aah Police caution for VAT fraud, changed his and the firms name. It is in his interest not to have clear signs so he can get mugs to fund his lifestyle.
    • Mangomummy
    • By Mangomummy 18th Oct 16, 4:28 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Mangomummy
    Thanks all for your help previously.

    I've just received the NTK from National Parking Enforcement Ltd which by my calculations was sent 57 days after the original windscreen ticket was issued although it was not received until today which is 62 days since the event.

    Do I need to send an appeal letter now?
    • Carthesis
    • By Carthesis 18th Oct 16, 4:37 PM
    • 481 Posts
    • 839 Thanks
    Carthesis
    Give us the dates on the windscreen ticket, and the date of postage of the NtK, and let someone else check the maths.

    If the envelope didn't drop through your door on day 56 or before, then they haven't complied with the POFA2012 requirements (which they *MUST* be reliant on to send an NtK in the first place), thus they don't have a leg to stand on.

    Once someone has double-checked the dates for you, you send the appeal letter in the **NEWBIES** thread, amended to state that, as RK, you did not receive the NtK within the 56 day time limit mandated by PoFA(2012) Schedule 9, and as such, the keeper liability provisions of same are not applicable.

    Then sit back and relax.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 18th Oct 16, 4:38 PM
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    DoaM
    First off, well done for replying on your own thread rather than creating a new one ... too many posters DON'T do this.

    Secondly, NPE are an IPC member company, so follow the IPC appeal guidelines in the NEWBIES thread.

    Thirdly, here's some more info about NPE:

    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/National_Parking_Enforcement.html
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Carthesis
    • By Carthesis 18th Oct 16, 4:40 PM
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    Carthesis
    Oh - if you want - you can look on the **NEWBIES** thread and find a link to the relevant part of PoFA(2012), which lists all the things that an NtK *MUST* contain for it to stand a chance of being upheld.

    Often, these things are overlooked / deliberately missed. You can also be proactive, and compare the NtK to that list (and to the windscreen NtD as previously noted) to ensure:

    a) all the relevant PoFA information is included

    b) that the NtD matches the NtK in *EVERY ASPECT*

    If either/both a) or b) are not the case, then the NtK is non-compliant, and would be non-compliant *EVEN IF* they'd managed to get it to you within the 56-day limit, which it sounds like they haven't.

    Something else to whack in the appeal letter.
    • Mangomummy
    • By Mangomummy 18th Oct 16, 6:30 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Mangomummy
    Give us the dates on the windscreen ticket, and the date of postage of the NtK, and let someone else check the maths.
    Originally posted by Carthesis
    Date of Parking charge notice 17/08/2106

    On the letter it states date of sending 13/10/16 but it didn't arrive until 18/10/16.

    Does that work?

    b) that the NtD matches the NtK in *EVERY ASPECT*
    The original windscreen ticket is slightly wrong by a letter which looks very similar to the actual letter but is corrected on the NTK.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Oct 16, 9:37 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    Basically, just adapt the usual IPC template appeal as shown in the NEWBIES thread. DO NOT say who was driving. Then ignore them, look at their reputation:

    https://norwich.greenparty.org.uk/news/2016/06/04/stop-heavy-handed-parking-enforcement-at-earlham-house-shops/

    I went to the website to pay
    Don't do that again! Rookie error, thinking it was a real fine. 'Tis a scam - whichever site it was at - according to locals (and posters here agree):

    https://norwich.greenparty.org.uk/news/2016/02/01/parking-scam-a-letter-to-the-government/

    http://www.edp24.co.uk/motoring/petition_demands_removal_of_cctv_cameras_in_earlha m_house_shopping_centre_1_4593021

    Court claims are like hen's teeth from this lot and would be defendable of course. You will be ignoring debt collector letters till the cows come home, which has no effect on your credit rating (but do check each letter and if you move house within SIX YEARS tell the idiots, this is why):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5524754

    and please read all of that thread and join our campaign. Get angry about the fact you will now have to field debt collector letters for years!

    Instead of responding to the chancers a second time after they inevitably reject your appeal copied from the NEWBIES thread, channel that energy and anger about this rubbish invoice, 'debt' threatograms and six year 'credit clamping' threat by sending letters of complaint as shown.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 19-10-2016 at 5:54 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Castle
    • By Castle 19th Oct 16, 9:43 AM
    • 1,070 Posts
    • 1,326 Thanks
    Castle
    Date of Parking charge notice 17/08/2106

    On the letter it states date of sending 13/10/16 but it didn't arrive until 18/10/16.

    Does that work?

    The original windscreen ticket is slightly wrong by a letter which looks very similar to the actual letter but is corrected on the NTK.
    Originally posted by Mangomummy
    A NTK must be received within 56 days which would be 12th October, (based on 17th August); so clearly it can't have been if it it wasn't posted until the 13th.
    • Carthesis
    • By Carthesis 19th Oct 16, 11:20 AM
    • 481 Posts
    • 839 Thanks
    Carthesis
    Date of Parking charge notice 17/08/2106

    On the letter it states date of sending 13/10/16 but it didn't arrive until 18/10/16.

    Does that work?

    The original windscreen ticket is slightly wrong by a letter which looks very similar to the actual letter but is corrected on the NTK.
    Originally posted by Mangomummy
    Then, as Castle points out, the NtK is invalid under the provisions of PoFA(2012) as it was received outside the mandated period. It's also incorrect as the details do not match those provided on the windscreen NtD.

    Personally - but I'm argumentative - I'd attempt to nip it in the bud. Wait a week from the receipt of the NtK, then appeal AS REGISTERED KEEPER with the template letter, but amended to additionally point out that:

    a) details don't match those on the NtD, therefore the NtK is invalid;

    b) that the provisions of PoFA (2012) have not been met with respect to the mandated period of notification, thus the liability cannot be transferred to the RK.

    Demand, under these circumstances, that a cancellation letter be issued for your records. State forthrightly that, given the circumstances, you have no intent of paying them even a single penny. Point out that, regardless of the receipt of a cancellation letter, you consider the matter closed as they haven't complied with their STATUTORY REQUIREMENTS but that if you don't get a final letter closing out the matter and assuring you that your details have been expunged from their systems, that you will be complaining to the IPC (the trade body, who are useless, but hey-ho); the DVLA (similarly useless, but you should insist the DVLA give you the dates on which your details were handed over to compare against the 56-day period); to the ICO (for misuse of your personal information); and to both your MP and to the Office of the Prime Minister.

    You're completely, totally in the clear and safe here (provided you do not accidentally reveal the driver), so you can afford to really go on the attack.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Oct 16, 1:16 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Thirded - I agree with Castle & Carthesis. There can be no keeper liability with this charge so spell it out...don't expect the PCN to be cancelled though!
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Carthesis
    • By Carthesis 19th Oct 16, 5:29 PM
    • 481 Posts
    • 839 Thanks
    Carthesis
    I'm bored, and I've had a bad day, and I'm up for an argument, so i even modified the letter for you:

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. [whatever it is]

    I write to you as the Register Keeper of vehicle registration XX 22 YYY, in relation to the matter of the “parking charge notice” referenced above.

    Firstly, take note of the following points:

    1) It is my contention that your windscreen ticket “Notice to Driver” fails the requirements of Schedule 4, Paragraph 7 of the ‘Protection of Freedoms Act (2012)’ (PoFA 2012);

    2) Further, I contend that the “Notice to Keeper” fails the requirements of Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 of PoFA 2012, specifically (but not limited to) the provisions of P.8 (2) (c) relating to repetition of the exact information provided on the “Notice to Driver”;

    3) The “Notice to Keeper” did not arrive within the mandated period of “28 days following the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to driver was given”. For clarity, you allege the parking charge was incurred on xx/yy/zz. This means that the 28-day period after which you may begin to attempt recovery from the Registered Keeper – and before which you are unable to request keeper details from the DVLA – commences on xx/yy/zz. The final date on which the “Notice to Keeper” could be received is 28 days after the date on which the transfer of liability to the Registered Keeper is permissible under PoFA 2012, which in this case is xx/yy/zz, as specified by paragraph 5, sub-paragraph (2). You have failed to comply with these statutory requirements, as specified by Schedule 4, paragraph (8), sub-paragraph (5) of PoFA 2012, and therefore have no legal means by which you can transfer liability from the driver to the Registered Keeper.

    From the above points, it should be abundantly clear to you that your only recourse is to attempt to reclaim the alleged monies owed from the driver of the vehicle at the time in question. Note that there will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can or should be drawn. I refer you to the 2015 report from POPLA, where Lead Adjudicator Henry Greenslade states categorically that “there is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver”. The case of Elliot v Loake (1982) does not apply, and certainly does not establish any precedent which can be relied upon in a civil matter.

    For the avoidance of doubt I reiterate that you can no longer rely on the transfer of liability to the Registered Keeper under PoFA 2012 as you have not complied with the mandatory statutory timescales laid out in that Act.

    Additionally, please note the following:

    1) I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers before they park.

    2) The car park is, in fact, a pay-and-display car park, and not one which offers “free parking for ‘x’ hours”, therefore this is distinguished from ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis, which will not – and indeed, cannot – be held to apply in this case.

    3) Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. I believe the driver may well be eligible for cancellation and you have omitted clear information about the process for complaints including a geographical address of the landowner.

    As you have not complied with the mandatory statutory requirements laid out in PoFA 2012, I consider this matter closed, and will not enter into any further correspondence with your company, or any other person or body representing or claiming to represent your company in regard to this matter.

    I require now that you send me a letter stating that you agree this matter is closed, and that all personal data you may hold on me has been appropriately expunged from you corporate systems and databases in accordance with the requirements of the Data Protection Act. Failure to provide this letter will result in letters of complaint against your company being lodged with your Accredited Trade Association; with the DVLA; with the Information Commissioner’s Office; and will be forwarded to my MP for submission to the appropriate bodies. I also reserve the right to take any further legal action that may be appropriate.

    I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    Also, get onto the DVLA and insist the provide you with a date on which your detials were accessed and provided to this PPC. If that isn't within the correct 28-day period, then they've accessed your private information illegally. You can point this out to DVLA in any way you wish. They'll not do anything about it, because they're seemingly on the take and don't want to interrupt a revenue stream - but if you complain and they ignore it, then you've a big stick to beat them with when you complain to your MP.
    Last edited by Carthesis; 19-10-2016 at 5:34 PM.
    • Mangomummy
    • By Mangomummy 19th Oct 16, 6:01 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Mangomummy
    Thanks to everyone for all your help on this - you are all amazing!

    Will get the letter off in the post in the next few days.
    • catfunt
    • By catfunt 19th Oct 16, 6:24 PM
    • 477 Posts
    • 701 Thanks
    catfunt
    Be prepared for the possibility (probability?!!) that they will pursue you on the basis that they are not using the POFA 2012, but chasing you on the assumption that you are the driver.

    They will almost certainly mither on about Elliott v Loake at you (an irrelevent, and criminal case that they try to use to chase the RK on the assumption that he/she was the driver.)

    Good idea to read up on that issue and inform yourself.
    Got a Private Parking Notice??
    ** Do Not Pay
    ** Do Not Ignore a Notice to Keeper (except Scotland)
    ** Do not mention who was driving (No "Me" Myself" "I")
    ** Never, ever phone a Private Parking Company
    ** Please read the NEWBIES thread at the top of the forum
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Oct 16, 8:17 PM
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    Umkomaas
    They will almost certainly mither on about Elliott v Loake at you (an irrelevent, and criminal case that they try to use to chase the RK on the assumption that he/she was the driver.)
    I'm sure that regulars will have noticed that not one Elliott -v- Loake assumption/argument has yet been placed before a Judge, despite hundreds of assertions by PPCs and their lapdogs.

    Out and out bullying by the bottom feeders via their assumption that the motorist will be naive enough to swallow the BS.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Carthesis
    • By Carthesis 19th Oct 16, 10:20 PM
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    Carthesis
    Can they even use EvL for this? Surely they *HAVE* to rely on PoFA to get RK details from DVLA don't they? Otherwise under what legislation are details being released?

    If it was an ANPR ticket where they can't identify the driver, you can see the thought process, as incorrect as it is. When they've stuck a windscreen ticket on, then the only thing they *can* rely on is PoFA to get RK details, surely?

    Irrelevant here as they've failed to follow PoFA so the ticket can be ignored, but in principle?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Oct 16, 10:30 PM
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    Umkomaas
    They don't need to PoFA to acquire keeper details, through which they invite the keeper to identify the driver. They need PoFA (and meet its strict requirements) to pass the liability to the keeper.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Carthesis
    • By Carthesis 20th Oct 16, 9:06 AM
    • 481 Posts
    • 839 Thanks
    Carthesis
    They don't need to PoFA to acquire keeper details, through which they invite the keeper to identify the driver. They need PoFA (and meet its strict requirements) to pass the liability to the keeper.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Ah. There you go - that's the distinction i suppose. In that regard it's no different to filling out the V888 that anyone could do to get RK details.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th Oct 16, 9:25 AM
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    Umkomaas
    In that regard it's no different to filling out the V888 that anyone could do to get RK details.
    Except that PPCs do it on an industrial scale, electronically, 24/7.
    NEWBIES - wise up - DO NOT IGNORE A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - you have been warned!

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Please note: I am NOT involved in any 'paid for' appeals service.
    • Carthesis
    • By Carthesis 20th Oct 16, 2:20 PM
    • 481 Posts
    • 839 Thanks
    Carthesis
    Except that PPCs do it on an industrial scale, electronically, 24/7.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    It's just a massive dodge though isn't it?

    They don't rely on PoFA to get the keeper details, which means they don't need to rely on PoFA to scare the RK into paying through quoting E-v-L, even though it doesn't apply.

    Common sense would suggest that they simply amend the law to state that, if a windscreen ticket has been issued, then the driver has been notified, and that if you want to contact the Registered Keeper, the only way to do that is to attempt to transfer liability under PoFA, and that that is the only way by which RK details will be made available.

    Although even as I write it, i suspect i'm missing something glaringly obvious which would make that an unworkable solution.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Oct 16, 4:25 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Nope, you are not missing anything. The DVLA could certainly have a statement that the data is supplied only to PPCs who comply with the POFA.

    IIRC at first, they did, in 2012/13. Then some PPCs (maybe the BPA) challenged it and suddenly we had this 'Plan B' back-door version as well which just appeared...and when people queried that with the DVLA they said it as OK because the PPC is allowed to get the data 'in order to enquire who was driving'!

    It was surely never the intention of the POFA that PPCs could just pathetically 'opt out' and still bother keepers.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the breadcrumb trail, top of page: Household & Travel > Motoring > Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking & READ THE 'NEWBIES' FAQS THREAD.
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

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